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Cosmic Indifference: What do you do after you realise the Universe doesn't care?

VioletVortex

Well-Known Member
I am conscious, so I'd care no matter what. I see consciousness as something that disproves total atheism and nihilism. If spiritual force did not exist, consciousness would not exist. Consciousness can't be created via something measurable like a chemical reaction, or the physical complexity of the brain. It isn't measurable at all. It's either present or absent. And still, let's go off on a limb and say that there is no spiritual realm. Even then, I would care because of my consciousness.
 

MrMrdevincamus

Voice Of The Martyrs Supporter
I agree in the sense that 'God did it' is the least improbable answer.. and simpler in that it removes the need for the FSM (Flying Spaghetti Multiverse!)

Ha ha INDEED! I could live with God being the FSM. If it possessed the same abilities etc as the Hebrew version of God, physical appearance rates as not important .
 

MrMrdevincamus

Voice Of The Martyrs Supporter
I am conscious, so I'd care no matter what. I see consciousness as something that disproves total atheism and nihilism. If spiritual force did not exist, consciousness would not exist. Consciousness can't be created via something measurable like a chemical reaction, or the physical complexity of the brain. It isn't measurable at all. It's either present or absent. And still, let's go off on a limb and say that there is no spiritual realm. Even then, I would care because of my consciousness.

Also how can the universe care? Unless the OT is referencing some sort of a conscious universe, it couldn't care. I do think common sense tells us the universe is semi conscious due to the fact that we humans are conscious, and we being made of atoms and such, are an intertegral part of the universe. Of course I being a theist believes in dualism ie the mind and brain being separate things, so my world view or paradigm of how the universe works is very different than most atheists. That is wonderful though, variety makes life interesting.
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
Ha ha INDEED! I could live with God being the FSM. If it possessed the same abilities etc as the Hebrew version of God, physical appearance rates as not important .

Sorry I am busy and very late in responding to people, but you bring up a good point; I increasingly see some common ground between theism and atheism- where atheists have started to entertain the idea of ID, in the form of 'alien intelligence'- or otherwise the necessity for an infinite probability machine to account for everything we see around us. And yes, the distinction between some of these ideas and God are becoming a little blurred.

But the old atheist concept; that this world is just what happens when you have lots of random stuff knocking around for a while... looks increasingly far fetched to all of us, the more we learn about information technology, the excruciatingly finely tuned engineering behind everything we learn about in nature.
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
Hey Guy, maybe Occmans razor is our friend! What reduces more Complexity and is more simple than God did it? Lol, in all seriousness I employ Occmans theory in my version of the KCA.

No, Occams razor just says that simpler theories are preferable to more complex ones because they are more TESTABLE.

So unless you have designed a God meter, Occams razor is not applicable here.
 

MrMrdevincamus

Voice Of The Martyrs Supporter
Sorry I am busy and very late in responding to people, but you bring up a good point; I increasingly see some common ground between theism and atheism- where atheists have started to entertain the idea of ID, in the form of 'alien intelligence'- or otherwise the necessity for an infinite probability machine to account for everything we see around us. And yes, the distinction between some of these ideas and God are becoming a little blurred.

But the old atheist concept; that this world is just what happens when you have lots of random stuff knocking around for a while... looks increasingly far fetched to all of us, the more we learn about information technology, the excruciatingly finely tuned engineering behind everything we learn about in nature.

Late responding? Hey, you are talking to the king of beleatedness', I am the supreme virtual hermit, ha ha...

The 2nd largest evidence that pulled my head out of the bung hole of believing that a deity like infinitely intelligent entity* is how the universe is constituted.
* = (GID or an ID)

All, or at least I of the armchair Newton's Chair wannabes that lean theistic know the newest theories that rely primarily on the insanity of 'meta theory' ** ie the MWI or many worlds interpretations take more FAITH to believe that the wildest religions, or even Greek mythology (of being a true account of history). For that matter the faith required to believe MWI and related theory is beyond the realm of religious faith. Sorry I am getting off on a tangent rant! To get back on point, yes I agree that the line is blurred between theism, God (did it) and hard science, especially on the smallest and ironically on the largest scales.*** Maybe one day the theists and atheists will be able to bury the hatchet and establish a dialog that will ultimately lead to real discovery and truth, and who knows, friendships brought about by the seed of mutual respect?

NOTES;

*** There was some atheistic hope that the universe did not need 'God' etc to create an infinite number of universes via series of rebounding universes, which is a lynch-pin to most MWI and other string theory spinoffs. However, to the dismay of non-thiest cosmologists, the latest studies and info from the show, as of 2016 there is not enough mass (dark or otherwise) to stop the universes expansion resulting in a heat death. This universe is probably the last, barring discovery or info/evidence to show more mass exists .

(as of 201http://chandra.harvard.edu/6 means)>>>>

http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/uni_life.html (WMAP)

http://www.universetoday.com/37105/fate-of-the-universe/

thanks for your response Mr3
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
I have a stick jutting out of an old shoebox with some wires attached, and an important-looking knob. So far I have no readings, but it could be I haven't fiddled with the knob enough.

Yes, that is exactly the kind of thing we are looking for! Please publish your results as soon as possible on the side of a cornflakes packet.
 

MrMrdevincamus

Voice Of The Martyrs Supporter
No, Occams razor just says that simpler theories are preferable to more complex ones because they are more TESTABLE.

So unless you have designed a God meter, Occams razor is not applicable here.

I just happen to have a God meter ! It's called common sense and understanding the evidence, lol....sorry for making a funny of your reply. Also my prior comment about GODDIDIT was just a bit tongue in cheek and not terribly serious.

Anyway, your assessment of OR's meaning/inferences is mostly correct. Let me apologize in advance but my diabetic fingers feel like they are on fire (its time to try out the dragon software!) so I am doing you a very brief abstract of a reply and hope it makes sense.

I have some opposition for giving too much merit to the 'Ockham's razor' concept ie it being more testable due to its simplicity. I would just say that Ockham's razor is at best a basic guideline, but certainly not a guarantee that simpler is always better. It seems to be a better metaphor than a scientific principle. Advanced aspects of complicated disciplines of science, religion, philosophy etc are complicated by necessity . Well, this is an somewhat disjointed reply but I have to slam a dose of narcotic and Motrin to put my burning fingers and hands out.

God bless this forum and country, sadly we are losing our way, and there is an obvious taint of war in the air ~

~ PRAY FOR PEACE ~



John 1.4>- Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
 
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Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
Late responding? Hey, you are talking to the king of beleatedness', I am the supreme virtual hermit, ha ha...

The 2nd largest evidence that pulled my head out of the bung hole of believing that a deity like infinitely intelligent entity* is how the universe is constituted.
* = (GID or an ID)

All, or at least I of the armchair Newton's Chair wannabes that lean theistic know the newest theories that rely primarily on the insanity of 'meta theory' ** ie the MWI or many worlds interpretations take more FAITH to believe that the wildest religions, or even Greek mythology (of being a true account of history). For that matter the faith required to believe MWI and related theory is beyond the realm of religious faith. Sorry I am getting off on a tangent rant! To get back on point, yes I agree that the line is blurred between theism, God (did it) and hard science, especially on the smallest and ironically on the largest scales.*** Maybe one day the theists and atheists will be able to bury the hatchet and establish a dialog that will ultimately lead to real discovery and truth, and who knows, friendships brought about by the seed of mutual respect?

NOTES;

*** There was some atheistic hope that the universe did not need 'God' etc to create an infinite number of universes via series of rebounding universes, which is a lynch-pin to most MWI and other string theory spinoffs. However, to the dismay of non-thiest cosmologists, the latest studies and info from the show, as of 2016 there is not enough mass (dark or otherwise) to stop the universes expansion resulting in a heat death. This universe is probably the last, barring discovery or info/evidence to show more mass exists .

(as of 201http://chandra.harvard.edu/6 means)>>>>

http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/uni_life.html (WMAP)

http://www.universetoday.com/37105/fate-of-the-universe/

thanks for your response Mr3

Yes it's pretty bad when we can't even find time to socialize virtually!

MWI takes faith yes, but not to give faith a bad name...I'd make the distinction that theistic faith acknowledges itself as such. Faith in MWI is usually blind faith, faith which does not recognize itself.

And yes there was atheistic hope that God could be made redundant by a whole range of static, steady state, cyclical mechanisms, (no creation = no creator) all of which have been debunked where testable.
But apparently the opposite implications, those of observed reality, don't apply. Heads we win, tails... doesn't count, lets roll again!

There was also hope that classical physics could make God redundant by leaving no room for 'mysterious unpredictable guiding forces'

No coincidence that two of our greatest scientists (in terms of discovery if not popularity) George Lemaitre and Max Planck, eschewed academic fashion in being notable skeptics of atheism.
 

MrMrdevincamus

Voice Of The Martyrs Supporter
Yes it's pretty bad when we can't even find time to socialize virtually!

MWI takes faith yes, but not to give faith a bad name...I'd make the distinction that theistic faith acknowledges itself as such. Faith in MWI is usually blind faith, faith which does not recognize itself.

And yes there was atheistic hope that God could be made redundant by a whole range of static, steady state, cyclical mechanisms, (no creation = no creator) all of which have been debunked where testable.
But apparently the opposite implications, those of observed reality, don't apply. Heads we win, tails... doesn't count, lets roll again!

There was also hope that classical physics could make God redundant by leaving no room for 'mysterious unpredictable guiding forces'

I like your commonsense style threepwood, it often times grounds me when I stretch the evidence line too thin when connecting the dots.

No coincidence that two of our greatest scientists (in terms of discovery if not popularity) George Lemaitre and Max Planck, eschewed academic fashion in being notable skeptics of atheism.

Very true! I have another one, Kurt Godel, but he was a logician and mathematician. Man, he was timid in some ways but his intellect was on par with big E, IMO. Godel shook up the Vienna Circles staunch anti theistic/metaphysical composure many times. He is one of my hero's not just because of his theism, I am awed by his intelligence. Anyway, my regards~

and;

~ Peace ~


Hebrews 13:2

Be not forgetful to entertain and be kind to strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
If there is no god, man has no special place or significance in creation. The universe was not "created" for us. We are simply here. we may be the result of underlying physical processes, but it does not carry any moral significance. I realise bringing this up in the context of atheism will necessarily be controversial because the term has such varied definitions but I wanted to discuss how people respond to the realisation that life has no purpose, meaning or significance beyond the fact we simply are here and have our own experience of pleasure and pain. that is our measure of right or wrong, but there is nothing really "objective" about it. its just how we evolved to sense of surroundings and what is in the interests of our survival as living organisms. our intellect is only one step away from that.

I think anyone here- regardless of their beliefs- may understand what I mean if you think about Outer-space. You can look up in the sky and the "universe" is out there, billions of light years in any direction. And here we are on this one tiny piece of rock hurtling round a giant ball of molten gas, and as tiny particles of organic matter with an infinitesimally small lifespan by comparison, we try to comprehend our significance amidst it all. why is the universe so peaceful when mankind is so violent? Is that a consequence of our egotism or do natures conflicts simply work on different timescales?

Maybe in thousands of years we will have spread out across other planets or stars, and found the secret to faster than light speed travel. It is possible, we may not make it that far, as we have no natural right to take our existence on his planet for granted. life is not a right. life just is. each of us can lose it, but the species may survive. And perhaps we can be convinced that it must be so. These are questions that those future generations will have to ponder as they go out into the vast open emptiness of outer space, and perhaps overcome the egotism of the adolescence of human history as we advance to become a global and then a planetary civilisation. what will our descendants say of us in a thousand or even million years time? Who will be there to greet us, if anyone at all?

I leave you with Carl Sagan's speech on the Pale Blue Dot. I don't have the answer, but it is none the less an interesting question of how we see ourselves in the context of a (practically) infinite universe and whether that it something frightening or liberating.

Why should/would the universe care about us though?
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
The only means we know of by which the universe contemplates itself, is through us, so as far as we can tell, we are the universe's primary concern are we not?
I'm not even sure why you would think such a thing. The universe is a pretty big place and we are a minor species on a backwater planet in an unremarkable galaxy.
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
I'm not even sure why you would think such a thing. The universe is a pretty big place and we are a minor species on a backwater planet in an unremarkable galaxy.

We are the only species in millions on Earth asking these questions.

In the days of Poe and Verne, we pondered what sort of folks lived on the moon- because we took for granted that people of some kind lived everywhere, Now we'd be blown away by a single fossilized microbe on Mars

So if we have learned one thing about Earth since then, it's how utterly remarkable a planet it is, among many staggeringly 'lucky' coincidences, it resides in an ideal suburb, in the 'great silence' of one of the most grand of all known grand design galaxies..

Had this grand galaxy turned out to be teeming with ET's radio signals, I'd be happy to accept the implication- that we are not necessarily the primary beneficiaries of creation.

I'm also happy to accept the opposite implication, that of observed reality today
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
We are the only species in millions on Earth asking these questions.
*Giggles* Ah, ok. *sigh* Oddly, our intelligence allows us to ask silly questions and offer less than ingenious observations. Other lifeforms, to the best of our knowledge, don't do that either.

In the days of Poe and Verne, we pondered what sort of folks lived on the moon- because we took for granted that people of some kind lived everywhere, Now we'd be blown away by a single fossilized microbe on Mars
Part of the huge problem here is the gargantuan distances involved. We have no idea if there are any alien races. We may never know. That still doesn't explain why the universe would care about us or possibly about others

So if we have learned one thing about Earth since then, it's how utterly remarkable a planet it is, among many staggeringly 'lucky' coincidences, it resides in an ideal suburb, in the 'great silence' of one of the most grand of all known grand design galaxies..
I'd love to see some docs to support the highlighted amusing notion.

Had this grand galaxy turned out to be teeming with ET's radio signals, I'd be happy to accept the implication- that we are not necessarily the primary beneficiaries of creation.
To paraphrase Sagan, don't you think its and awful waste of space if we are the only ones? Note: I'm not a believer in aliens, I'm like Fox Mulder who would like to believe... if only... I still don't get why that makes us the sole beneficiary of the entire cosmos. That could prove quite disastrous if we ran into another species who suffered from the same delusion.

I'm also happy to accept the opposite implication, that of observed reality today
That's good of you.
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
*Giggles* Ah, ok. *sigh* Oddly, our intelligence allows us to ask silly questions and offer less than ingenious observations. Other lifeforms, to the best of our knowledge, don't do that either.

okay, what does you cat think about all this? :)

Part of the huge problem here is the gargantuan distances involved. We have no idea if there are any alien races. We may never know. That still doesn't explain why the universe would care about us or possibly about others

The gargantuan distances give us the benefit of being able to detect signals from long past civilizations which would otherwise be lost- and still nothing

eg a signal sent 10k years old from 10kly away - so it's a wash, and since the galaxy is billions of years old, and yet only 100kly or so across- it's all relatively recent history

So it's the equivalent of listening to the entire galaxy at once, in terms of scoring a hit. And we hear nothing but deafening silence.

I'd love to see some docs to support the highlighted amusing notion.

It's hardly a controversial observation, The Milky way is not just an average galaxy, it is a very large well defined grand design , Plenty of info you can find on this if you care to learn more.

we are used to the classic images of grand designs, the prettiest looking galaxies, but most are far more chaotic

galaxies.jpg



http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/188404main_hurt_Milky_Way_2005-590_lg.jpg
188404main_hurt_Milky_Way_2005-590_lg.jpg




To paraphrase Sagan, don't you think its and awful waste of space if we are the only ones?


That's a rather old fashioned anthropic viewpoint-

Ever play Minecraft? each world is practically infinite, nobody could ever explore more than a tiny fraction. So by Sagan's logic the game must have accidentally created itself for no reason or intended audience.

Similarly the scale of the universe was determined by the math written into the primeval atom, not the creator's credit limit at home depot! There are no 'wasted' resources when you are creating those resources yourself

So given this freedom, do you restrict your creation to a 'space-saver' Truman show dome? or create a vast awe inspiring cosmos? The former would seem more consistent with a fluke to me.

This all might still be deemed 'pointless' if we were like the other millions of species who never pondered beyond Earth, or we didn't have a clear sky, the means to explore, appreciate the universe-
even send probes to planets and beyond, we are even given a prefect mask for the sun's disk (the moon) allowing us to examine the corona, and hence learn much about the rest of the visible universe-

That one was getting a bit close to giving the game away I think!
 

MrMrdevincamus

Voice Of The Martyrs Supporter
*Giggles* Ah, ok. *sigh* Oddly, our intelligence allows us to ask silly questions and offer less than ingenious observations. Other lifeforms, to the best of our knowledge, don't do that either.

Part of the huge problem here is the gargantuan distances involved. We have no idea if there are any alien races. We may never know. That still doesn't explain why the universe would care about us or possibly about others

I'd love to see some docs to support the highlighted amusing notion.


To paraphrase Sagan, don't you think its and awful waste of space if we are the only ones? Note: I'm not a believer in aliens, I'm like Fox Mulder who would like to believe... if only... I still don't get why that makes us the sole beneficiary of the entire cosmos. That could prove quite disastrous if we ran into another species who suffered from the same delusion.


That's good of you.

I disagree with most of your comments but where have you been for the last 25 years? Astronomy and cosmology is a hobby of mine so I may be a little more attuned with current science than the average Joe. I just thought everyone knew of the implications of WIMP and the latest probes and telescopes studies. I am not referencing the old but still relevant claims of Penrose and other scientists of a decade or two ago who said the odds astronomically against a universe like ours ie able to support life. The current and most popular claims point to the balance between dark energy dark matter and spacetime. If you really wanted you could have found this material yourself but I will get you started with some of the newer and older docs as you call them;

http://www.livescience.com/46478-universe-should-have-collapsed.html
here is an excerpt ;
Modeling of conditions soon after the Big Bang suggests the universe should have collapsed just microseconds after its explosive birth, the new study suggests.

“During the early universe, we expected cosmic inflation — this is a rapid expansion of the universe right after the Big Bang,” said study co-author Robert Hogan, a doctoral candidate in physics at King’s College in London. “This expansion causes lots of stuff to shake around, and if we shake it too much, we could go into this new energy space, which could cause the universe to collapse.”

In short, the expansion had to be finely-tuned for the Universe’s existence—and ours. Although the alleged confirmation of inflation is being debated (see 6/24/14), the properties of the Higgs Field are tenuous in any expansion. Cosmologists at King’s College London looked into their models:

What they found was bad news for, well, everything. The newborn universe should have experienced an intense jittering in the energy field, known as quantum fluctuation. Those jitters, in turn, could have disrupted the Higgs field, in essence rolling the entire system into a much lower energy state that would make the collapse of the universe inevitable.


The article goes on to mention that the Standard Model still leaves important factors in the universe unexplained. Peter Higgs makes a cameo appearance in the article.

People know instinctively the world is designed. They have to be trained not to know it. Scientists, especially, undergo rigorous training to lose their common sense. Oh, they have common sense within their world view, but when their restricted common sense runs into roadblocks inside their secular box, they fret and fume and refuse to consider the obvious implication. They love darkness rather than light. That’s why they chase phantoms like dark matter, dark energy, and dark “new physics” that nobody has ever observed or even knows how to observe. Anything but Intelligent Design!

Their reactions undercut their logic. By using argumentation, rationality and emotion, they prove they already are Supernaturalists, because such things do not derive from particles and forces. Indeed, particles and forces fall into the Incompleteness Theorem; they can only be understood with reference to reality outside themselves—the conceptual world of mind and logic. That reality, subsequently, can only be understood with reference to a greater Reality outside it—a personal, rational, eternal God: the First Cause from which everything derives.

Theologians and creationists have pointed to the fine-tuning of the universe, the Anthropic Principle and such things for decades. The only sufficient condition for the Universe’s ability to say “I exist!” is the foundation in Genesis 1:1, “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.” We’ve seen in recent years the atheists rushing to embrace a multiverse instead of creation (5/17/14), despite the infinite regress trap it presents to them. What we see with the current hand-wringing over the finely-tuned Higgs field is just more of the anti-rational reaction Paul described so well in Romans 1:18–24.

Another the universe shouldnt be here site;


http://www.nbcnews.com/science/weir...eorist-claims-universe-shouldnt-exist-n138911

If you want tech stuff go KEYWORDS DARK ENERGY DARK MATTER WIMP CHANDRA


Lastly in one of my prior my replies I pointed out that we are an undeniable part of the universe. Our brain our mind and our thoughts are THE UNIVERSE. So in fact a part of the universe really does care.....


God bless our universe~




Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, AND STRETCHED THEM OUT (EXPANDED); he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
Isaiah 42:5
 

MrMrdevincamus

Voice Of The Martyrs Supporter
To paraphrase Sagan, don't you think its and awful waste of space if we are the only ones?

That's a rather old fashioned anthropic viewpoint-

Ever play Minecraft? each world is practically infinite, nobody could ever explore more than a tiny fraction. So by Sagan's logic the game must have accidentally created itself for no reason or intended audience.

Similarly the scale of the universe was determined by the math written into the primeval atom, not the creator's credit limit at home depot! There are no 'wasted' resources when you are creating those resources yourself

So given this freedom, do you restrict your creation to a 'space-saver' Truman show dome? or create a vast awe inspiring cosmos? The former would seem more consistent with a fluke to me.

This all might still be deemed 'pointless' if we were like the other millions of species who never pondered beyond Earth, or we didn't have a clear sky, the means to explore, appreciate the universe-
even send probes to planets and beyond, we are even given a prefect mask for the sun's disk (the moon) allowing us to examine the corona, and hence learn much about the rest of the visible universe-

That one was getting a bit close to giving the game away I think!

I like old fashioned points, that means they are more likely truth than ones that change daily , like the points of science. Of course if you u don't like today's explanation that science has for something, just wait, sooner or later it will change. Remember from piltdown man? Today we have Lucy tomorrow it will be some other pile (of bones, lol)! As for humans being a waste of the universes space, I think maybe to a nearly infinitely old and large universe, the time it took for evolution and God to create man and sentience is to that universe a 'blink of its eye'..
 
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