Could it be this simple?

[Poisonshady313]

Could you expand on this a bit?

I think by looking at Jesus words in a variety of ways, not just in a literal way, one can come to the conclusion that he isn't the wonderful fellow that Christians would like everyone to believe he was.

An example: I'm sure you're well aware of the story of the "Canaanite" woman who came to Jesus for help because her daughter was vexed with devils.

If you wouldn't mind, I would love to hear your interpretation of that incident. However you want... if you want to summarize it, tell me the lesson you took from it (accompanied by how you took that lesson from it), if you want to go line by line and walk me through what the narration is trying to convey. I'll be sure to offer my take on it after.

 

[Tre-L]

I think by looking at Jesus words in a variety of ways, not just in a literal way, one can come to the conclusion that he isn't the wonderful fellow that Christians would like everyone to believe he was.

An example: I'm sure you're well aware of the story of the "Canaanite" woman who came to Jesus for help because her daughter was vexed with devils.

If you wouldn't mind, I would love to hear your interpretation of that incident. However you want... if you want to summarize it, tell me the lesson you took from it (accompanied by how you took that lesson from it), if you want to go line by line and walk me through what the narration is trying to convey. I'll be sure to offer my take on it after.

The Jewish people are said to be Gods chosen and Jesus claimed to be sent only for the lost sheep of the house of Israel at that point, which is probably why He resisted healing her daughter (At first). Even so, she would not let up, and pretty much demanded that He heal her daughter, and much like the unrighteous Judge did when the woman demanded justice, Jesus gave in to the woman because He realized it was the right thing to do, knowing she would not give in. Both woman knew what was right, and what was just and their faith in justice and what was right compelled both Jesus and the unrighteous judge to act accordingly.

Jesus (Although Gods son) was not infallible as far as I can tell. He (Like the rest of us) had to learn and grow in wisdom and in Gods grace. I think the woman lead him to realize what is just and what is not just. This could have been a turning point in His ministry. Perhaps it was this incident that He realized that He was sent for all people and not just the lost sheep of the house of Israel, but for all who were lost.

"God so loved the world ...."

What do "you" think, poison?

 

[Poisonshady313]

The Jewish people are said to be Gods chosen and Jesus claimed to be sent only for the lost sheep of the house of Israel at that point, which is probably why He resisted healing her daughter (At first). Even so, she would not let up, and pretty much demanded that He heal her daughter, and much like the unrighteous Judge did when the woman demanded justice, Jesus gave in to the woman because He realized it was the right thing to do, knowing she would not give in. Both woman knew what was right, and what was just and their faith in justice and what was right compelled both Jesus and the unrighteous judge to act accordingly.

Jesus (Although Gods son) was not infallible as far as I can tell. He (Like the rest of us) had to learn and grow in wisdom and in Gods grace. I think the woman lead him to realize what is just and what is not just. This could have been a turning point in His ministry. Perhaps it was this incident that He realized that He was sent for all people and not just the lost sheep of the house of Israel, but for all who were lost.

"God so loved the world ...."

What do "you" think, poison?

First of all, "I" think you need to drop the quotation marks around the word you, implying that my thoughts are not my own.


Something doesn't sit well with the first sentence in your post.

"The Jewish people are said to be Gods chosen and Jesus claimed to be sent only for the lost sheep of the house of Israel at that point, which is probably why He resisted healing her daughter (At first)."

Jews being chosen means we have the responsibility of living according to the Torah, setting an example for the world... being a light to the nations. There is no excuse for ignoring the pleas of a woman in desperate need just because she is not Jewish.


As for "she would not let up, and pretty much demanded"...


And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, [thou] Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.


She didn't demand anything. She beseeched him.

She was already humble, and he made sure to humiliate her before granting her request.

But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast [it] to dogs.

And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great [is] thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

The comparison being made with his metaphor is that the Jews are the children, the non-Jews are the dogs, and the bread is his help/compassion. This is a disgusting incident of racism very unbecoming of anybody, much less someone who is supposedly some sort of great moral teacher.

Yet the dogs eat of the crumbs... several things are going here. She is affirming his subjugation of her by submitting to the dog comparison... and she is also submitting to the notion that her daughter being grievously vexed by devils is a trivial matter not really worth his consideration... like crumbs on a table.

Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great [is] thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Like a bully who has a kid in a headlock, telling the kid to "say uncle"... and when the kid says "uncle", the bully relents.

Jesus is willing to help her when she declares she knows that her place in the social order is with the dogs who hope to receive the scraps.


I have a few ideas about what's really going on here.

It's possible that Jesus was really was this malevolent, and people identifying him as a figure of love is a tragic mistake.

It's possible that this scenario never happened, but the gospel writers wrote it purposely to convince the reader that this was typical behavior of the Jews of the day, which is why people should embrace Christianity as an open armed, compassionate, loving alternative to a cold, heartless, racist Judaism.

It's possible that it is a combination of the two. Meaning that Jesus wasn't necessarily this cruel, but put on this show in order to attract potential converts by demonizing Judaism, while convincing his Jewish disciples to depart from their ways in favor of a blind devotion to him and his new direction.

 

[Tre-L]

First of all, "I" think you need to drop the quotation marks around the word you, implying that my thoughts are not my own.

I implied no such thing, Poison. I suppose even a quotation around a word is able to offend you. It is no wonder that you have such disdain for Jesus. He was just like us, yet you hold him to a higher standard because He's more popular than? Because He was so harsh to the Jewish religious leaders of His day? Because "some" have given him a god status?

You scream racism, but that's not how I read it. If He was racist (Even a little bit) He overcame such a poisonous mindset, no? He healed the woman's daughter despite what the Jews thought of those of who were of a different race than them. Do you think that the gentiles are any different than the Jews. Are we commanded to follow the Torah in order to be ranked among the chosen, or must we be of Jewish descent? In other words, can a gentile become a Jew, and be counted among Gods chosen people?

 

[blackout]

Does the Icon of "The Christ" (jesus)
represent to you the idea that we are each/all
equally capable of realizing/REALizing our Own CHRISThood?

Or is he some special figure in your mind.

Also, is there anything besides Love,
that jesus taught,
that you feel is of great significance?
Which teachings might those be?
and what (specifically) are their significance to us?

If you don't mind.

 

[Tre-L]

Does the Icon of "The Christ" (jesus)
represent to you the idea that we are each/all
equally capable of realizing/REALizing our Own CHRISThood?

Or is he some special figure in your mind.

Also, is there anything besides Love,
that jesus taught,
that you feel is of great significance?
Which teachings might those be?
and what (specifically) are their significance to us?

If you don't mind.

Hey there,

Yes, we are each capable of realizing our own Christhood. We are said to be the body of Christ after all. Christ simply means anointed one, and each of us can be changed by the anointing of the Spirit (Love), whereby we too become as Jesus was (A child of God).

I think Jesus taught us obedience and submission to God. According to John God is love. So it comes down to submitting ourselves to love. [If] God is love, and God is also Spirit, and the Spirit is truth, then isn't it the Spirit of love (God) that we ought to be honoring?

Just something to think about,

 

[Poisonshady313]

He was just like us, yet you hold him to a higher standard because He's more popular than? Because He was so harsh to the Jewish religious leaders of His day? Because "some" have given him a god status?

Because some have given him a god status... or a messiah status... or a prophet status... or a good moral teacher status. Because the one who besought his help worshiped him, and called him "Lord". These are all good reasons to hold him to a higher standard.

You scream racism, but that's not how I read it.

Obviously.

If He was racist (Even a little bit) He overcame such a poisonous mindset, no? He healed the woman's daughter despite what the Jews thought of those of who were of a different race than them.

That's part of the problem... the notion that his behavior is typical of "what the Jews thought of those of who were of a different race than them". The fact that you'd say such a thing helps demonstrate my point. That this passage, or at least those who attempt to apologize for it, paints the Jews (of at least the first century, and usually by extension, Jews of all time) as racists who held foreigners in low regard, contempt even so as to ignore their pleas for compassion.

You might ask me "Don't you suppose it's possible that's really the way they were?"... I would ask in return "Do you suppose it's possible that it's not?"

You say he overcame such a poisonous mindset. I say he developed it... and, as I said earlier, his help for the woman was like a bully who relents after the kid he's tormenting cries "uncle". He was satisfied that she had debased herself low enough to be considered worthy of his help. It's disgusting. And what's more disgusting is people who figure this was typical of how any Jew would have responded.

Do you think that the gentiles are any different than the Jews.

Are the police any different from doctors? On some levels, they are, and on some, they are not. They're both gainfully employed, they both exist to help people.... but they each have different tasks to carry out... different paths. The police concern themselves with law. Doctors concern themselves with medicine. For the Jew, the path is the Torah.

Are we commanded to follow the Torah in order to be ranked among the chosen, or must we be of Jewish descent?

Part of the problem with this line of questioning is you don't seem to view the concept of chosenness the way Jews do. I suppose that could be a matter for another thread. What it means to be chosen, and what the Jews were chosen for.

In other words, can a gentile become a Jew, and be counted among Gods chosen people?

Sure. There is a conversion process... but we don't go around scoring converts like someone selling magazine subscriptions because we don't believe you need to be Jewish in order to be loved by God and have your prayers answered by Him.

We don't believe that people need to be saved. We have a path that we're responsible for... and if you want in, you're welcome as long as you don't take it lightly. We don't need the world to be Jewish. We need the world to treat their fellow humans with dignity, respect, and compassion. And we need the world to let us be in peace, instead of seeking to destroy us.

 

[Tre-L]

Because some have given him a god status... or a messiah status... or a prophet status... or a good moral teacher status. Because the one who besought his help worshiped him, and called him "Lord". These are all good reasons to hold him to a higher standard.

Why so, Poison? Just because some call Him lord, doesn't mean He should be held to a higher standard than the standard we hold for ourselves. He' was a man who has brought many to realize the necessity of love, so why fault him for being human?

Obviously. That's part of the problem... the notion that his behavior is typical of "what the Jews thought of those of who were of a different race than them". The fact that you'd say such a thing helps demonstrate my point. That this passage, or at least those who attempt to apologize for it, paints the Jews (of at least the first century, and usually by extension, Jews of all time) as racists who held foreigners in low regard, contempt even so as to ignore their pleas for compassion.

You might ask me "Don't you suppose it's possible that's really the way they were?"... I would ask in return "Do you suppose it's possible that it's not?"

It could go both ways, sure ....

You say he overcame such a poisonous mindset. I say he developed it... and, as I said earlier, his help for the woman was like a bully who relents after the kid he's tormenting cries "uncle". He was satisfied that she had debased herself low enough to be considered worthy of his help. It's disgusting. And what's more disgusting is people who figure this was typical of how any Jew would have responded.

That is your interpretation of the incident, and just as you interpreted the quotation marks around the word "you", you could be just as wrong about this.

Sure. There is a conversion process... but we don't go around scoring converts like someone selling magazine subscriptions because we don't believe you need to be Jewish in order to be loved by God and have your prayers answered by Him.

We don't believe that people need to be saved. We have a path that we're responsible for... and if you want in, you're welcome as long as you don't take it lightly. We don't need the world to be Jewish. We need the world to treat their fellow humans with dignity, respect, and compassion. And we need the world to let us be in peace, instead of seeking to destroy us.

Well said

 

[Poisonshady313]

Why so, Poison? Just because some call Him lord, doesn't mean He should be held to a higher standard than the standard we hold for ourselves. He' was a man who has brought many to realize the necessity of love, so why fault him for being human?

He had obviously established himself as some variety of leader or authority, otherwise she wouldn't have had any reason to call him lord. And people in authority or leadership positions are and should be held to a higher standard. He had an opportunity to set an example. And the example he set was a terrible one.

Exodus 23:9 Do not oppress a stranger; you know the feelings of a stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.

Jesus should have known better.

That is your interpretation of the incident, and just as you interpreted the
quotation marks around the word "you", you could be just as wrong about this.

If you wouldn't mind, what did you mean by surrounding the word you with quotation marks?

Well said

Thank you.

 

[Tre-L]

He had obviously established himself as some variety of leader or authority, otherwise she wouldn't have had any reason to call him lord. And people in authority or leadership positions are and should be held to a higher standard. He had an opportunity to set an example. And the example he set was a terrible one.

Funny how we interpret things so differently. I for one think He set an extremely good example, and I (Unlike you) realize that He was not perfect, but was rather like the rest of us, having moments where His humanity reared its ugly head.

If you wouldn't mind, what did you mean by surrounding the word you with quotation marks?

I do it often to highlight a word. I gave my view and I was merely asking you to do the same. I wasn't implying that your thoughts were not your own, but was rather asking you to simply give your view.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Funny how we interpret things so differently. I for one think He set an extremely good example, and I (Unlike you) realize that He was not perfect, but was rather like the rest of us, having moments where His humanity reared its ugly head.

I certainly do realize that he was not perfect. Most often this conversation is had with those who assert that he was. But you don't have to be perfect to know the right way to deal with someone who comes to you for help in their time of need/distress.

I do it often to highlight a word. I gave my view and I was merely asking you to do the same. I wasn't implying that your thoughts were not your own, but was rather asking you to simply give your view.

I apologize for jumping to that conclusion. Using quotation marks simply to highlight a word is not something I'm used to seeing... and I spend a fair amount of time in forums like this. I'm used to quotation marks being used (aside from marking quotations) to imply the phrase "so-called". For example:

Let's see what this "scholar" has to say on the subject.

It would appear to me that the speaker of this sentence doesn't really figure the fellow being spoken of is a scholar, despite him having been described as such by someone else.

So when I saw the word you in quotation marks, I took it to suggest that you didn't figure the opinion offered would be my own.

I'm glad we could clear this up.

 

[blackout]

Hey there,

Yes, we are each capable of realizing our own Christhood. We are said to be the body of Christ after all. Christ simply means anointed one, and each of us can be changed by the anointing of the Spirit (Love), whereby we too become as Jesus was (A child of God).

I think Jesus taught us obedience and submission to God. According to John God is love. So it comes down to submitting ourselves to love. [If] God is love, and God is also Spirit, and the Spirit is truth, then isn't it the Spirit of love (God) that we ought to be honoring?

Just something to think about,

If god is (only/essentially/basically) love...
what is everything else?

 

[Tre-L]

If god is (only/essentially/basically) love...
what is everything else?

I'm not sure what you are asking exactly, but Gods Spirit is love. In other words Gods essence is love, which is (IMO) the only thing aside from the laws of nature that mankind need to worry about. What is everything else, then? I am one who believes that God is existence itself.

For example: I believe that "Creation" has always been (It simply existed in another form prior to what it is now). Creation (As we know it) was "formed", but it was formed through the many changes taking place within an infinite existence. Just as we go through changes, and take on new forms, so it was with "creation" itself.

There was never a time that existence came into being - Existence was not created; existence has always been, and will always be. Creation as we know it (On the other hand) was formed through the many changes taking place within existence itself. Creation is simply a finite 'part' of an infinite reality ... Constantly going through changes.

Everything finite exists as a part of the infinite and are eternal in nature, only the finite parts of existence go through many transformations, changing from one form to another. Such is the nature of life - "Change" For example: Our bodies decay, and we return to the dust of the earth, yet that transformation does not end there. We also become nourishment for other finite life forms, which in turn become nourishment for other finite life forms.

Could the universe have come into existence from nothing? Nothing means absolutely nothing in this case, so the logical answer would be, no. So, we must assume that existence has always contained ‘something’ as itself. Call existence God, or universe, or simply existence, it cannot be denied, as it does exist. We, being creatures of awareness are able to recognize that 'something' exists as existence. We can think, and we can comprehend physical matter, and we feel emotion. [mind - matter - spirit] We know that there are both visible and invisible aspects to existence.

Having said that, nothing can exist outside of existence. Therefore, all things are part of existence, and are eternal in nature. [Assuming of course, existence had no point of creation] Everything that exists is in a state of constant motion. This includes mind, matter, and spirit. Birth, and transformation are simply the [finite] qualities of things that exist [within] the whole of existence. The finite can only continue in the cycles of change within the whole of existence. God, therefore is both the Creator, and created, existing both as the [eternal] aspects of existence, and as finite [parts] of existence. To put it simply, God is all that exists. "I am", "All in all", and “All things“

 

[blackout]

I'm not sure what you are asking exactly, but Gods Spirit is love. In other words Gods essence is love, which is (IMO) the only thing aside from the laws of nature that mankind need to worry about. What is everything else, then? I am one who believes that God is existence itself.

For example: I believe that "Creation" has always been (It simply existed in another form prior to what it is now). Creation (As we know it) was "formed", but it was formed through the many changes taking place within an infinite existence. Just as we go through changes, and take on new forms, so it was with "creation" itself.

There was never a time that existence came into being - Existence was not created; existence has always been, and will always be. Creation as we know it (On the other hand) was formed through the many changes taking place within existence itself. Creation is simply a finite 'part' of an infinite reality ... Constantly going through changes.

Everything finite exists as a part of the infinite and are eternal in nature, only the finite parts of existence go through many transformations, changing from one form to another. Such is the nature of life - "Change" For example: Our bodies decay, and we return to the dust of the earth, yet that transformation does not end there. We also become nourishment for other finite life forms, which in turn become nourishment for other finite life forms.

Could the universe have come into existence from nothing? Nothing means absolutely nothing in this case, so the logical answer would be, no. So, we must assume that existence has always contained ‘something’ as itself. Call existence God, or universe, or simply existence, it cannot be denied, as it does exist. We, being creatures of awareness are able to recognize that 'something' exists as existence. We can think, and we can comprehend physical matter, and we feel emotion. [mind - matter - spirit] We know that there are both visible and invisible aspects to existence.

Having said that, nothing can exist outside of existence. Therefore, all things are part of existence, and are eternal in nature. [Assuming of course, existence had no point of creation] Everything that exists is in a state of constant motion. This includes mind, matter, and spirit. Birth, and transformation are simply the [finite] qualities of things that exist [within] the whole of existence. The finite can only continue in the cycles of change within the whole of existence. God, therefore is both the Creator, and created, existing both as the [eternal] aspects of existence, and as finite [parts] of existence. To put it simply, God is all that exists. "I am", "All in all", and “All things“

And this is what I was getting at.

If god is ALL things,
then besides peace and love...
god is ALSO dischord and hatred...
god is dark and god is light...
god is light and god is heavy...
god is apples and dump trucks
and gemstones and silly trinkets and garbage.

god is you,
and god is me,
and ALL of the things that WE ARE...
God is.

 

[Tre-L]

And this is what I was getting at.

If god is ALL things,
then besides peace and love...
god is ALSO dischord and hatred...
god is dark and god is light...
god is light and god is heavy...
god is apples and dump trucks
and gemstones and silly trinkets and garbage.

god is you,
and god is me,
and ALL of the things that WE ARE...
God is.

Are all of those things that we are and all we do beneficial or conducive to our well being, happiness, and even survival?

 

[blackout]

Are all of those things that we are and all we do beneficial or conducive to our well being, happiness, and even survival?

Either ALL things are god,
or they are not.

If you say that god is ALL,
then you can't pick and choose
and throw stuff out that you don't like.

If god was not ALSO non-beneficial, destructive, sad, and ...
dying?evolving?recycling?sickly?
then those things would NOT EXIST at all.

 

[Tre-L]

Either ALL things are god,
or they are not.

If you say that god is ALL,
then you can't pick and choose
and throw stuff out that you don't like.

If god was not ALSO non-beneficial, destructive, sad, and ...
dying?evolving?recycling?sickly?
then those things would NOT EXIST at all.

Which part of Gods reality then should mankind embrace, and seek out, and desire? There are many things about my biological father that I dislike, so I choose to focus on the good parts. why should I focus on the bad? If God is both good and evil, then it is through us that one side of God or the other side of God is unleashed upon mankind. We are the vessels through which both sides of God operate, and it is through our actions that his "goodness" or His "wrath" is released in this world. To put it simply, we can live wisely or unwisely .... Who or what God is makes little difference in the grand scheme of things. Surely it is how we choose to live our lives that matters most.

I'm reminded of Horace:

Ask not—we cannot know—what end the gods have set for you, for me; nor attempt the Babylonian reckonings .... How much better to endure whatever comes, whether Jupiter grants us additional winters or whether this is our last, which now wears out the Tuscan Sea upon the barrier of the cliffs! Be wise, strain the wine; and since life is brief, prune back far-reaching hopes! Even while we speak, envious time has passed: seize the day, putting as little trust as possible in tomorrow.

If we live destructive lives, then destruction is what we will receive. On the other hand, if we live in manner beneficial to not only us but others also then we will come to know the goodness of life. We are in this world together, Violet. When one person lives only for self whereby others suffer for their choices, then that person has forced their will upon another, and has set themselves up for conflict, ridicule, and judgment. Most who do this think they are being judged unrighteously, and do not even recognize that what they have done and what they do is imposing on someone else's rights

Surely your not suggesting that life is a free for all?

 

[blackout]

I think that it's fine and good to focus on the things that empower you.

I just find the "god is love" banner... fluffy and selective.
I like my "god is me" banner better.

 

[Tre-L]

I think that it's fine and good to focus on the things that empower you.

I just find the "god is love" banner... fluffy and selective.
I like my "god is me" banner better.

Fair enough, but to counter your dig at Gods love being fluffy, it was through both His goodness and His wrath that I found my faith. [youtube]9a6WU5QO_yo[/youtube]: hamster :

 

[blackout]

Is wrath beneficial and conducive to our well being , happiness and survival?!

Flies her "god is wrath" banner.




(PS. I can't see your pic or youtube or whatever it is
from this computer.)