Could it be?

[firedragon]

You’re gettin a little too deep here I think. Keep it simple

I thought it was your thesis that was very very deep so I asked a simple question really.

No worries Jimmy. All good. Thanks for your responses.

 

[Windwalker]

Well I'm so far down the spectrum that if 100% = Atheist; 0% = God believer - I'm at 95+
So, if everything between 1% and 99% is agnostic, then yes I'm agnostic

95% certain, is pretty strongly convinced about something we have no evidence for. So can you slight the theist who lacks evidence too, and call their's as a matter of blind faith, and your near certainty as not? Just saying. I'm fine with either way someone wants to see things, without solid evidence supporting them. But you can't claim one is a matter of faith and the other not then, given the lack of evidence for both.

 

[idea]

If it was not created or suddenly rose from nothing, how could there be a evolution in the first place

Laws of thermodynamics posit eternity in all directions. No beginning, no end, just eternal reforming of mass and energy.

 

[People_Lack_Integrity]

Are you also talking about possibilities? In that case as you said anything is possible. So if what you say is possible, then you have to consider other things also as possible, and dismiss or adopt both. Dont you think?

As I said in my post, just because something is technically possible, doesn't mean you should believe it as true or something you should invest your time in. If there's evidence something that's "possible" is true, then it warrants further investigation, but belief in it is still tentative.

Some atheists in the forum argue that a belief in God has made theists to live in misery and discomfort, and you are speaking of comfort as if the God idea is a convenience for this particular purpose. Also, its irrelevant to the question whether the God idea and the theory of evolution go together. You have to approach it methodologically in my opinion.

I am speaking of the comfort that believers tend to use to warrant their beliefs, such as the comfort of an afterlife, seeing their loves ones, that there is some form of ultimate justice...things like that. But other atheists are correct in pointing out that religion does tend to also harm people, such as those who spend their whole lives celibate, or in solitary, which causes mental harm. There are also the more extreme ones that handle snakes, or marry off young children to older men, or protest funerals, or even kill others based upon their beliefs or non-beliefs. As far as the last part, I actually said in different words that the question was rather irrelevant with "My whole point is that the question the OP poses is rather meaningless because it asks us to consider the possible, rather than the reasonable, factual or logical." I mean to further that point I could ask the question "Does Evolution and the idea that we are living in computer simulation have to be in conflict?" and you could make the argument that they are not, because the programmer could have just made it so evolution is a part of it. Yet we haven't addressed the central problem which is that there's no reason to believe that we actually are living in computer simulation, just as there's also no reason to believe we are living in a universe with any gods.

 

[Spirit of Light]

As I said in my post, just because something is technically possible, doesn't mean you should believe it as true or something you should invest your time in. If there's evidence something that's "possible" is true, then it warrants further investigation, but belief in it is still tentative.


I am speaking of the comfort that believers tend to use to warrant their beliefs, such as the comfort of an afterlife, seeing their loves ones, that there is some form of ultimate justice...things like that. But other atheists are correct in pointing out that religion does tend to also harm people, such as those who spend their whole lives celibate, or in solitary, which causes mental harm. There are also the more extreme ones that handle snakes, or marry off young children to older men, or protest funerals, or even kill others based upon their beliefs or non-beliefs. As far as the last part, I actually said in different words that the question was rather irrelevant with "My whole point is that the question the OP poses is rather meaningless because it asks us to consider the possible, rather than the reasonable, factual or logical." I mean to further that point I could ask the question "Does Evolution and the idea that we are living in computer simulation have to be in conflict?" and you could make the argument that they are not, because the programmer could have just made it so evolution is a part of it. Yet we haven't addressed the central problem which is that there's no reason to believe that we actually are living in computer simulation, just as there's also no reason to believe we are living in a universe with any gods.

If it was not for my religious belief in God, I would not be alive today, so I have every reason to be thankful to God

 

[People_Lack_Integrity]

95% certain, is pretty strongly convinced about something we have no evidence for. So can you slight the theist who lacks evidence too, and call their's as a matter of blind faith, and your near certainty as not? Just saying. I'm fine with either way someone wants to see things, without solid evidence supporting them. But you can't claim one is a matter of faith and the other not then, given the lack of evidence for both.

Why would you need evidence for something that is a non-belief? If I say I'm not convinced that the universe is a computer simulation...because I've looked at the evidence presented to me by those that believe that it is and I found it lacking....do I then need evidence that not believing their claims is correct? That doesn't make sense. If the claim is lacking in compelling evidence that it is true...then you are not likely to find evidence that it's false...because it's not a falsifiable claim....just as with the claims of gods. These aren't claims we can put to a test, so if you do not believe in any gods due to lack of falsifiability, then there's nothing to test. I would actually go further than Altfish and say I'm 99.99% certain that no gods that any of the major religions have claimed exist have met their burden of proof. I also see no evidence or reason to believe even in a general god, or that there is anything outside of the natural cosmos. I could be wrong, which is why I leave the .01% open, but the only thing that would change my mind is evidence and I don't need to present evidence that I'm right, because I'm not claiming I am. I'm saying that all the claims about the state of the universe...that there are gods, or beings that exist outside the natural order...have not proven their cases and therefore I do not believe.

 

[Altfish]

95% certain, is pretty strongly convinced about something we have no evidence for. So can you slight the theist who lacks evidence too, and call their's as a matter of blind faith, and your near certainty as not? Just saying. I'm fine with either way someone wants to see things, without solid evidence supporting them. But you can't claim one is a matter of faith and the other not then, given the lack of evidence for both.

I think you've answered your own question with the phrase "...something we have no evidence for." That is why I'm an atheist - I need evidence and there isn't any.

 

[firedragon]

As I said in my post, just because something is technically possible, doesn't mean you should believe it as true or something you should invest your time in. If there's evidence something that's "possible" is true, then it warrants further investigation, but belief in it is still tentative.

Then, that question is not relevant to you. It maybe very important to someone else.

I am speaking of the comfort that believers tend to use to warrant their beliefs

Then you are engaging with a strawman. Think about it. Did someone make this "comfort" argument in this thread?

You created it for you to attack. Thats the definition of a strawman fallacy.

OP poses is rather meaningless because it asks us to consider the possible, rather than the reasonable, factual or logical.

In that case, make your case logically. That means, prove logically how the possibility is incoherent. Logically show how evolution is incoherent with theism.

 

[People_Lack_Integrity]

If it was not for my religious belief in God, I would not be alive today, so I have every reason to be thankful to God

I know that has great meaning for you...but it doesn't for me, mainly because I hear these kinds of claims all the time. Believers will attribute their lives getting better, or surviving something...to their god. For example, I have a friend who is a Mormon who credits his life getting back on track (he was bad into drugs) due to his joining the LDS church and praying to his god. He said that while praying, he felt a warm feeling course through his body and he instantly knew that god was answering his prayer. So he swears that everything within the book of Mormon is true due to his religion saving his life. Does that mean that suddenly all the claims of Mormonism are true? Does that mean that suddenly Native Americans suddenly become a lost tribe of Israel that was cursed with yellow skin because they rebelled against god (this is within the Book of Mormon). Does that mean that Joseph Smith really read off of gold plates inside a hat using "magic stones"? I think not, but my friend thinks otherwise.

My point is that I can easily find you stories like this, or claims of miracles, or that someone's life was saved....in any religion and I'd wager that it wouldn't do much for you in convincing you that those religions, gods and/or their beliefs...are actually true. Therein lies the hypocrisy. Just as for those people, your personal experience has made you biased and invested in the idea that you cannot be wrong...or simply mistaken about your experience. It's an emotional investment and those unfortunately are very strong and very often lead to type 2 errors in cognition. I don't know what your specific experience was, but your quotes seem to indicate you are Muslim. That's fine...but I can find you hundreds of stories from Christians that will say that Jesus healed them, or saved them, etc....and I'd wager a good amount that it wouldn't do much for you, because you've already decided what the truth is based upon your personal experience. But consider this...you are human, imperfect and completely capable of error. So if you won't consider the stories of other beliefs and/or gods, in contestation with your own belief....at least consider that you are fallible and capable of error in your cognition in whatever happened to you.

Put it this way, I once had an experience when I was alone in which the carpet started moving...like sand and in circles and yes this really happened to me. I sat there stunned focusing and asking myself "Is this really happening?" Instead of freaking out, or calling it a miracle...I thought about it, while still witnessing and focusing in on the experience. I put my feet on the carpet and though it still looked like it was moving, I couldn't feel it moving. I was left with 2 conclusions...I'm experiencing a miracle....or I'm hallucinating. If I was hallucinating, then it was likely for a medical reason such as being dehydrated or due to medication I was on, or both. So, I drank a bunch of water and ate some food real quick an the carpet stopped moving and went back to normal. If I had been religious at the time (I was religious up until about 19), I would have probably attributed this experience to a religious one and not properly evaluated it...maybe even ended up in the hospital.

I know this post was long and I apologize, but you need to consider that your personal experience may not be what you thought it was.

 

[People_Lack_Integrity]

Then, that question is not relevant to you. It maybe very important to someone else.

I don't care, I was stating my opinion.

Then you are engaging with a strawman. Think about it. Did someone make this "comfort" argument in this thread? You created it for you to attack. Thats the definition of a strawman fallacy.

I'm starting to think you didn't read my original post and why it was relevant to the argument to begin with. Context is important, so you picking that and saying "No one was talking about it"...doesn't matter at all, because it wasn't brought up to "knock down the argument". Perhaps actually read what I wrote completely next time and then you won't make the error of accusing someone falsely of a strawman?

In that case, make your case logically. That means, prove logically how the possibility is incoherent. Logically show how evolution is incoherent with theism.

I already did that in my first post and my last one. Your inability to read the post completely or comprehend it is not my problem. I'm not going to restate what I said, especially if you aren't going to read it and then claim I didn't do it.

 

[firedragon]

I don't care,

Very good. Good argument.

I'm starting to think you didn't read my original post and why it was relevant to the argument to begin with. Context is important, so you picking that and saying "No one was talking about it"...doesn't matter at all, because it wasn't brought up to "knock down the argument". Perhaps actually read what I wrote completely next time and then you won't make the error of accusing someone falsely of a strawman?

This is strawman. When you create a caricature to attack rather than address the argument that's a strawman.

I already did that in my first post and my last one. Your inability to read the post completely or comprehend it is not my problem. I'm not going to restate what I said, especially if you aren't going to read it and then claim I didn't do it.

So why can't theism and evolution in conflict?

 

[Spirit of Light]

I know that has great meaning for you...but it doesn't for me, mainly because I hear these kinds of claims all the time. Believers will attribute their lives getting better, or surviving something...to their god. For example, I have a friend who is a Mormon who credits his life getting back on track (he was bad into drugs) due to his joining the LDS church and praying to his god. He said that while praying, he felt a warm feeling course through his body and he instantly knew that god was answering his prayer. So he swears that everything within the book of Mormon is true due to his religion saving his life. Does that mean that suddenly all the claims of Mormonism are true? Does that mean that suddenly Native Americans suddenly become a lost tribe of Israel that was cursed with yellow skin because they rebelled against god (this is within the Book of Mormon). Does that mean that Joseph Smith really read off of gold plates inside a hat using "magic stones"? I think not, but my friend thinks otherwise.

My point is that I can easily find you stories like this, or claims of miracles, or that someone's life was saved....in any religion and I'd wager that it wouldn't do much for you in convincing you that those religions, gods and/or their beliefs...are actually true. Therein lies the hypocrisy. Just as for those people, your personal experience has made you biased and invested in the idea that you cannot be wrong...or simply mistaken about your experience. It's an emotional investment and those unfortunately are very strong and very often lead to type 2 errors in cognition. I don't know what your specific experience was, but your quotes seem to indicate you are Muslim. That's fine...but I can find you hundreds of stories from Christians that will say that Jesus healed them, or saved them, etc....and I'd wager a good amount that it wouldn't do much for you, because you've already decided what the truth is based upon your personal experience. But consider this...you are human, imperfect and completely capable of error. So if you won't consider the stories of other beliefs and/or gods, in contestation with your own belief....at least consider that you are fallible and capable of error in your cognition in whatever happened to you.

Put it this way, I once had an experience when I was alone in which the carpet started moving...like sand and in circles and yes this really happened to me. I sat there stunned focusing and asking myself "Is this really happening?" Instead of freaking out, or calling it a miracle...I thought about it, while still witnessing and focusing in on the experience. I put my feet on the carpet and though it still looked like it was moving, I couldn't feel it moving. I was left with 2 conclusions...I'm experiencing a miracle....or I'm hallucinating. If I was hallucinating, then it was likely for a medical reason such as being dehydrated or due to medication I was on, or both. So, I drank a bunch of water and ate some food real quick an the carpet stopped moving and went back to normal. If I had been religious at the time (I was religious up until about 19), I would have probably attributed this experience to a religious one and not properly evaluated it...maybe even ended up in the hospital.

I know this post was long and I apologize, but you need to consider that your personal experience may not be what you thought it was.

If there is one thing I know, I am not without errors, I do something "wrong" every single day. Sufism is a inward path to realize the full potential of the being we are. A human is only a spiritual being trapped in human body. And spiritual practice is made possible for us to realize who we truly are.

It is of course no problem that you do not believe any of it. Just like it is no problems for people to have their spiritual or religious belief.

 

[Windwalker]

Why would you need evidence for something that is a non-belief?

This original comment was the belief that the universe always existed with no need for God. That's not a non-belief. That's a belief, and since it has no more evidence supporting that than the God hypothesis, if the latter is a matter of faith, so is the former. Nothing wrong with that at all, just don't deny it's any different that someone believing God without evidence.

If I say I'm not convinced that the universe is a computer simulation...because I've looked at the evidence presented to me by those that believe that it is and I found it lacking....do I then need evidence that not believing their claims is correct? That doesn't make sense. If the claim is lacking in compelling evidence that it is true...then you are not likely to find evidence that it's false...because it's not a falsifiable claim....just as with the claims of gods. These aren't claims we can put to a test, so if you do not believe in any gods due to lack of falsifiability, then there's nothing to test. I would actually go further than Altfish and say I'm 99.99% certain that no gods that any of the major religions have claimed exist have met their burden of proof. I also see no evidence or reason to believe even in a general god, or that there is anything outside of the natural cosmos. I could be wrong, which is why I leave the .01% open, but the only thing that would change my mind is evidence and I don't need to present evidence that I'm right, because I'm not claiming I am. I'm saying that all the claims about the state of the universe...that there are gods, or beings that exist outside the natural order...have not proven their cases and therefore I do not believe.

If you claim the universe has always existed, or that there was some other cause that we don't have evidence for, that is not any different than a theist placing God back there without evidence. You're both stating a view without evidence. That's faith in both cases.

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes, it's perfectly possible.

I routinely find myself frustrated by people who don't get that. And I'm an atheist.

Even though it's a thought, it would be reasonable and logical to figure that God could change things when He needed to, or wanted to.

 

[YoursTrue]

If there is one thing I know, I am not without errors, I do something "wrong" every single day. Sufism is a inward path to realize the full potential of the being we are. A human is only a spiritual being trapped in human body. And spiritual practice is made possible for us to realize who we truly are.

It is of course no problem that you do not believe any of it. Just like it is no problems for people to have their spiritual or religious belief.

Interesting that your inward conscience speaks in a way to you. Mine does, too, and I am realizing that God loves me because I realize what I've done wrong and He forgives me because I ask for forgiveness. Even though I can't go back and correct some things, but I do look forward to the future, a new heavens and a new earth. According to God's promises in the Bible.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Is it possible that our universe was created by a God, but that the theory of evolution also is true?

Meaning, did God create this universe with purpose that it evolve as a evolution on its own?

If a god did create the universe, things like the big bang and evolution would be the processes used to get the state of things to where they are today.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Interesting that your inward conscience speaks in a way to you. Mine does, too, and I am realizing that God loves me because I realize what I've done wrong and He forgives me because I ask for forgiveness. Even though I can't go back and correct some things, but I do look forward to the future, a new heavens and a new earth. According to God's promises in the Bible.

I believe it is important to understand ones own being, that way one get closer to God.
So the inward path unlock all our faults so we can see and understand them. Until there are no more to understand

 

[Spirit of Light]

If a god did create the universe, things like the big bang and evolution would be the processes used to get the state of things to where they are today.

That I agree with you on

 

[loverofhumanity]

Is it possible that our universe was created by a God, but that the theory of evolution also is true?

Meaning, did God create this universe with purpose that it evolve as a evolution on its own?

Yes I agree that God created all things including evolution. It makes perfect sense.

 

[YoursTrue]

I believe it is important to understand ones own being, that way one get closer to God.
So the inward path unlock all our faults so we can see and understand them. Until there are no more to understand

Time will reveal these things, if we have faith. It's an interesting story -- the Bible holds those responsible if they know what the Bible says. Also the Bible says that people outside of knowing the true God have consciences that show them which way they should or should not walk. And that means I think right now I gotta go to sleep.