Could Nothingness Be Another Dimension In And Of Itself?

[Rick O'Shez]

Are you not trying to communicate your personal experience?

That's all any of us can really do. It seems that some people have an overwhelming need to project their personal experience onto the universe. It looks rather egocentric to me.

 

[godnotgod]

This is another example of the way you ignore the discussion in hand and dump in one of your random cliches.

Here is the original exchange:
You said:
1. It is not some ontological reality 'out there', but in here.
2. You are the Universe, looking at itself through your eyes.

I responded:
Statement 1 is accurate.
Statement 2 is pure speculation and basically meaningless.

Would you like to have another go?

No. This:

'I' only exists when you are thinking. When you are not thinking, there is no thinker of thoughts called 'I'. There is only seeing itself, without an agent of seeing. If there is no agent of seeing, then seeing is impersonal. Now tell me who, or what, is seeing?

..is a direct response to this:

You are the Universe, looking at itself through your eyes.

If 'I' is an illusion, then you can be none other than not-I, which is the universal Self, which is The Universe.

 

[Straw Dog]

That's all any of us can really do. It seems that some people have an overwhelming need to project their personal experience onto the universe.

Yet it is precisely this interpretation of personal experience that is so profoundly beautiful.

The most interesting question isn't 'What is the meaning of life?', but rather 'What is the meaning of art'?

 

[AndromedaRXJ]

So currently in this thread, The Universe is debating with it self and disagrees with the nature of it's true self.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Yet it is precisely this interpretation of personal experience that is so profoundly beautiful.

I'm always interested in hearing about the experiences people have. What I'm not interested in is people defining "reality" for the rest of us, lecturing us on the "true nature of the Universe" or nonsensical notions like "Absolute Reality".

 

[godnotgod]

Any possible 'view' is necessarily conditioned by a particular process of subjective experience. What makes any possible view meaningful is the reality of communication.

Are you not trying to communicate your personal experience?

No. It is an impersonal experience; ie; one beyond all personal views, unconditioned, unborn, It is before any personal views have come into play.

What I am asking you, is what consciousness are you employing to discern that all views are the product of subjective experience?

'What did your face look like before your mother was born?'

You know, when you go to Home Depot to get a paint chip matched, the clerk places it under a scanner which compares it to a neutral colorless chip. That is how the colors in the chip sample are derived.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

So currently in this thread, The Universe is debating with it self and disagrees with the nature of it's true self.

And disappearing up it's own bottom.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

No. It is an impersonal experience; ie; one beyond all personal views, unconditioned, unborn, It is before any personal views have come into play.

No, it's still a personal experience, it's still limited to your own small world and mind.

 

[godnotgod]

I'm always interested in hearing about the experiences people have. What I'm not interested in is people defining "reality" for the rest of us, lecturing us on the "true nature of the Universe" or nonsensical notions like "Absolute Reality".

Hear, hear! That is precisely what the prisoners in Plato's Cave said when one of the escapees went topside to view the Sun and returned to report his findings.

"It was exactly this reaction that Plato described in his account of the prisoners in the cave (which is actually a variant of the Myth of the Mad King). Suppose, says Plato in his Republic (Loeb edition), that one of the prisoners in the cave, whose only impression of reality is derived from watchingshadows on the walls, escapes into the world outside. Suppose he is of an altruistic disposition and
returns to tell the other prisoners of the bright and varied world that lies beyond their prison. Suppose he announces that all things they have ever seen are merely shadows. Will they welcome that message? Not likely!

There will certainly be laughter at his expense and it will be said that the only result of his escapade
up there is that he has come back with his eyesight ruined. Moral: it's a fool's game even to make
the attempt to go up aloft; and as for the busybody who goes in for all the liberating and translating
to higher spheres, if ever we have a chance to catch and kill him we will certainly take it."

from: The Master Game, by Robert deRopp

 

[godnotgod]

Just say "universe" then. The word "reality" is a can of worms, particularly if you start it with a capital R. And then people talk about "Absolute Reality", as if that is more real than "reality", it's just pretentious nonsense.

Ordinary reality comes and goes, like illusions do; Ultimate Reality does not come and go. It is alwasys present regardless of what comes and goes.

 

[Straw Dog]

No. It is an impersonal experience; ie; one beyond all personal views, unconditioned, unborn, It is before any personal views have come into play.

What I am asking you, is what consciousness are you employing to discern that all views are the product of subjective experience?.

A consciousness that is just another subjective view. Any impersonal view would be down right boring. You preach a philosophy for the dead. Why would I give a ****? I'm too busy being alive and animated.

You need to get out more.

 

[godnotgod]

Nonsense. It's pointless speculating about the universe here because we are actually talking about the way we perceive our own tiny part of it, our limited personal world.

Even that is encapsulated by the Universe. If you can talk about your perception of your own limited personal world, then, by definition, there must be an unlimited impersonal world beyond and greater than that. What is that Spiny?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Suppose he is of an altruistic disposition and returns to tell the other prisoners of the bright and varied world that lies beyond their prison. Suppose he announces that all things they have ever seen are merely shadows. Will they welcome that message? Not likely!

Not a good analogy. This is more like a rabbit who has been down in his hole for far too long.

 

[godnotgod]

No, it's still a personal experience, it's still limited to your own small world and mind.

Spiny, my dear boy, it is only a personal experience if 'I' exists. 'I' is just the fragile ego shell of Identification. It is a fictional existence to the script in a drama written by others.

 

[AndromedaRXJ]

I think the only thing that could be called an impersonal view is mathematics. The realization of mathematical proofs doesn't rely on perception or the physical senses. It's utterly abstract.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Ordinary reality comes and goes, like illusions do; Ultimate Reality does not come and go. It is alwasys present regardless of what comes and goes.

One can develop a stillness of mind, sure, but talking about this as "Ultimate Reality" is nonsensical. All we can really discuss is what goes on in our own minds, the rest is pure speculation and mostly nonsense.

 

[godnotgod]

So currently in this thread, The Universe is debating with it self and disagrees with the nature of it's true self.

Good observation! At last we are making progress. Let us call what you describe here a kind of cosmic game of Hide and Seek that the Universe is playing. Far far more sophisticated and intelligent than the greatest minds of Reason can fathom. Who knew?

 

[godnotgod]

Not a good analogy. This is more like a rabbit who has been down in his hole for far too long.

And how long have most of the human beings on the planet been indoctrinated to believe that those dancing cave wall shadows represent reality? The proof is the current state of world affairs, the product of such substantive delusive ideas.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Spiny, my dear boy, it is only a personal experience if 'I' exists. 'I' is just the fragile ego shell of Identification. It is a fictional existence to the script in a drama written by others.

You're missing the point, I suspect deliberately. We can only ever experience our own small world which is limited by the range of our physical senses, as far as the eye can see. We can only ever experience a tiny fraction of what is "out there", the universe.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

And how long have most of the human beings on the planet been indoctrinated to believe that those dancing cave wall shadows represent reality? The proof is the current state of world affairs, the product of such substantive delusive ideas.

So you view yourself as some latter-day prophet come to free humanity from the chains of it's conditioning? Maybe you see yourself as Neo in the Matrix?

Straw Dog was right, you really do need to get out more.