Could Nothingness Be Another Dimension In And Of Itself?

[YmirGF]

I would rather not.

In the spirit of Gurdjieff, I seek to bury the bone deeper.

Superficiality weakens us.

Poetry is the gymnasium of the soul.

While I am more a Meher Baba kind of guy, I respect your silence on the matter.

 

[Katzpur]

I'm Christian, and I do not think the Bible teaches ex-Nihlo creationism. Mormons believe that everything, including our own spirits, are eternal with no beginning, and no end.

Really? I'm not familiar with that idea/belief.

This argument is contradictory: If the world is beginningless and endless, then there cannot have been a Creation, which, as I understand Christian dogma, says that a Creation definitely took place; that God created it from Nothing.

I think there may be some misunderstanding here due to the way idea worded her post, and I hope she won't mind if I step in to clarify Mormon doctrine as I understand it. I think we actually teach that God did, in fact, create our spirits. They have not always existed, but the highly refined matter from which He created them has. In other words, the "intelligence" (in LDS terminology, that is roughly translated as "light and truth") was co-eternal with God, our Creator. However, without Him, those "raw materials" would never have become the spirit beings He created for us.

Also, it is absolutely possible for there to have been a creation from pre-existent materials. When Beethoven "created" his symphonies or when Michelangelo "created" the David, they did not first have to create either music or stone, but they still created great works of art. Some Christians mistakenly assume that the idea that God used matter that existed "before the beginning" that somehow diminishes His greatness. How silly to think that anything could make God less than He is!

 

[Runewolf1973]

Think of yourself standing absolutely still on a bridge over a flowing river.

Water under the bridge...

 

[Ben Dhyan]

While I am more a Meher Baba kind of guy, I respect your silence on the matter.

I can just see you living among and caring for the fringe community....

 

[Willamena]

So would you say that True Emptiness is neither Emptiness, nor not-Emptiness?

I would say that emptiness is true.

 

[idea]

This argument is contradictory: If the world is beginningless and endless, then there cannot have been a Creation, which, as I understand Christian dogma, says that a Creation definitely took place; that God created it from Nothing.

Thanks Katz! Art, music - it is created, but it is not "ex-Nihlo" created. Creation is the process of transforming something that is ugly and useless, into something that is beautiful and "refined". God "refines" us, He molds us, this is the way that we and everything are created - it was not out of nothingness - it begins in an unformed/unrefined... rather ugly state.

To say that God is responsible for creating everything (evil, unrefined mess) would diminish God.
He is cleaning up a mess He did not create - what is beautiful and good is everything that has allowed itself to be changed by God. What is evil and unrefined has not allowed itself to be molded/transformed/created.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I would say that emptiness is true.

What do you mean by emptiness?

 

[godnotgod]

Thanks Katz! Art, music - it is created, but it is not "ex-Nihlo" created. Creation is the process of transforming something that is ugly and useless, into something that is beautiful and "refined". God "refines" us, He molds us, this is the way that we and everything are created - it was not out of nothingness - it begins in an unformed/unrefined... rather ugly state.

To say that God is responsible for creating everything (evil, unrefined mess) would diminish God.
He is cleaning up a mess He did not create - what is beautiful and good is everything that has allowed itself to be changed by God. What is evil and unrefined has not allowed itself to be molded/transformed/created.

But from where did the original 'ugly mess' of the material originate? This has been the perennial problem for both theists and for science.

Think about this: you can only have a concept of ugliness when a complementary concept of what is beautiful exists, and vice versa. They go hand in hand, rather than in polar opposition to one another.

Isaiah 45:7King James Version (KJV)

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

 

[idea]

But from where did the original 'ugly mess' of the material originate? This has been the perennial problem for both theists and for science.

Think about this: you can only have a concept of ugliness when a complementary concept of what is beautiful exists, and vice versa. They go hand in hand, rather than in polar opposition to one another.

Isaiah 45:7King James Version (KJV)

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Great scriptural example of what "create" means! Does create = ex-Nihlo? or does create = transform.... let's substitute the correct meaning, "transform" into the above scripture, and then compare it to all of the other scriptures that discuss the nature and character of God.

7 I form the light, and transform darkness: I make peace, and transform evil: I the Lord do all these things.

God transforms/refines/molds what is ugly and evil into light and peace and beauty. God is light, in Him is no darkness at all.

God is not responsible for the existence of evil.

 

[godnotgod]

I would say that emptiness is true.

Read this post:

http://www.religiousforums.com/thre...-in-and-of-itself.181074/page-72#post-4529036

and then tell me if your answer still holds true. (sunyata is emptiness)

 

[godnotgod]

Great scriptural example of what "create" means! Does create = ex-Nihlo? or does create = transform.... let's substitute the correct meaning, "transform" into the above scripture, and then compare it to all of the other scriptures that discuss the nature and character of God.

7 I form the light, and transform darkness: I make peace, and transform evil: I the Lord do all these things.

God transforms/refines/molds what is ugly and evil into light and peace and beauty. God is light, in Him is no darkness at all.

No. You are making stuff up that is not there originally. Transformation is not creation.

Tell me where the original ugly material and evil originated from.

 

[idea]

Tell me where the original ugly material and evil originated from.

There is no beginning, and there is no end. Everything is eternal with no beginning and no end. Everything can be transformed, but nothing magically pops into or out of existence from nothing.

 

[godnotgod]

There is no beginning, and there is no end. Everything is eternal with no beginning and no end. Everything can be transformed, but nothing magically pops into or out of existence.

Fine, then there cannot have been a 'creation'. There can only have been manifestation and transformation. Therefore, God did not create anything.

 

[idea]

Fine, then there cannot have been a 'creation'. There can only have been manifestation and transformation. Therefore, God did not create anything.

Call it what you will.... refine is probably a better word to use than create.

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/vocabulary_studies.html
Child Root

Transliteration: "Qa-NeH"
Meaning: To build a nest.
Comments: This child root is a nest builder, one who builds a nest such as a bird. Also God as in Bereshiyt (Genesis) 14.19; "God most high creator (qaneh) of sky and earth". The English word "create" is an abstract word and a foreign concept to the Hebrews. While we see God as one who makes something from nothing (create), the Hebrews saw God like a bird who goes about acquiring and gathering materials to build a nest (qen), the sky and earth. The Hebrews saw man as the children (eggs) that God built the nest for.
Definition: Reference:


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/6274502/God-is-not-the-Creator-claims-academic.html
God is not the Creator, claims academic
The notion of God as the Creator is wrong, claims a top academic, who believes the Bible has been wrongly translated for thousands of years.....

 

[godnotgod]

Call it what you will.... refine is probably a better word to use than create.

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/vocabulary_studies.html
Child Root

Transliteration: "Qa-NeH"
Meaning: To build a nest.
Comments: This child root is a nest builder, one who builds a nest such as a bird. Also God as in Bereshiyt (Genesis) 14.19; "God most high creator (qaneh) of sky and earth". The English word "create" is an abstract word and a foreign concept to the Hebrews. While we see God as one who makes something from nothing (create), the Hebrews saw God like a bird who goes about acquiring and gathering materials to build a nest (qen), the sky and earth. The Hebrews saw man as the children (eggs) that God built the nest for.
Definition: Reference:


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/6274502/God-is-not-the-Creator-claims-academic.html
God is not the Creator, claims academic
The notion of God as the Creator is wrong, claims a top academic, who believes the Bible has been wrongly translated for thousands of years.....

Fine, but that only means that Christianity is at odds with its own doctrines.

However, we do know that nature, left on her own, transforms herself and great guileless beauty is always the result.

 

[idea]

Fine, but that only means that Christianity is at odds with its own doctrines.

However, we do know that nature, left on her own, transforms herself and great guileless beauty is always the result.

Some (not all) Christian churches are at odds with their own doctrine.

There is ugliness in the universe, but there is also great beauty. For me, God is part of the beauty.

one more scripture for you, and then I have to call it a night:
Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

What is adoption? Not "created" perhaps, but we can be adopted...

 

[godnotgod]

Some (not all) Christian churches are at odds with their own doctrine.

There is ugliness in the universe, but there is also great beauty. For me, God is part of the beauty.

one more scripture for you, and then I have to call it a night:
Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

What is adoption? Not "created" perhaps, but we can be adopted...

Nah, I am not a refugee from my spiritual home, but an heir to the gifts of the Incarnation and to the Universe itself.

Ultimately, beauty and ugliness are nothing more than mental conceptions. They do not actually exist in reality. The Bible, having been written by mortal, faulty humans, have superimposed their own prejudices over nature. There is neither beauty nor ugliness; there is only Reality itself.

Tao te Ching, Chapter 2

It is because every one under Heaven recognizes beauty as beauty,
That the idea of ugliness exists.
And equally if every one recognized virtue as virtue,
this would merely create fresh conceptions of wickedness.
For truly, Being and Not-being grow out of one another;
Difficult and easy complete one another.
Long and short test one another;
High and low determine one another.
Pitch and mode give harmony to one another.
Front and back give sequence to one another.
Therefore the Sage relies on actionless activity,
Carries on wordless teaching,
But the myriad creatures are worked upon by him;
He does not disown them.
He rears them, but does not lay claim to them,
Controls them, but does not lean upon them,
Achieves his aim, but does not call attention to what he does;
And for the very reason that he does not call attention to what he does
He is not ejected from fruition of what he has done.

Because beauty and ugliness are complimentary relative values in the East, they are not pitted against one another as in Western thought. Pitting beauty against ugliness, and good against evil, results in an endless round of hatred and violence. As Chinese thought puts it:

'When a concept of The Good is created, an equally powerful concept of Evil has also automatically been created. Having created Evil, The Good must now oppose Evil, as directed by the dictates of The Good. In fighting Evil, Evil is only made stronger. Therefore the sage never acts out of a concept of moral Goodness."

....and, as Yeshu himself put it:

'Resist not, Evil'

Because of the split in Christian dogma, it is not clear what one is to accept as the correct doctrine. The way I see it, the world was neither created, nor not-created. It's true nature is illusory, the real being That which manifests it as 'the world'.

 

[idea]

Tao te Ching, Chapter 2

It is because every one under Heaven recognizes beauty as beauty,
That the idea of ugliness exists.
And equally if every one recognized virtue as virtue,
this would merely create fresh conceptions of wickedness.
For truly, Being and Not-being grow out of one another;
Difficult and easy complete one another.
Long and short test one another;
High and low determine one another.
Pitch and mode give harmony to one another.
Front and back give sequence to one another.
Therefore the Sage relies on actionless activity,
Carries on wordless teaching,
But the myriad creatures are worked upon by him;
He does not disown them.
He rears them, but does not lay claim to them,
Controls them, but does not lean upon them,
Achieves his aim, but does not call attention to what he does;
And for the very reason that he does not call attention to what he does
He is not ejected from fruition of what he has done.

'.

I love the Tao, and agree that the tree of knowledge of good and evil is not such a horrible thing after all.

 

[godnotgod]

I love the Tao, and agree that the tree of knowledge of good and evil is not such a horrible thing after all.

Peace

 

[Papoon]

I love the Tao, and agree that the tree of knowledge of good and evil is not such a horrible thing after all.

According to the Dead Sea Scrolls, it's a red and white spotted mushroom. But since the US began the War on Gnosis, that's a big no no. M'kay ?