could the holy spirit be a female entity?

[Breathe]

With all that said, it comes down to what "time" and context did someone make a feminine reffernce.

was the origional source material in the OT??? or a later perversion of the original text?

The word in Hebrew/Aramaic, ruah, is feminine.
The word in Greek, pneuma, is neuter.
The word in Latin, spiritus, is masculine.

If that's not what you ask, I've misunderstood what you asked?

it must be noted that all major bible translation do use a masculine identity

It's probably a leftover from the days when "spiritus" was used, out of tradition (same as the Ten Commandments "Do not murder"), because it would be a major change (same as previous), and possibly out of fear of making it feel polytheistic. At an ignorant guess.

 

[fallingblood]

it must be noted that all major bible translation do use a masculine identity

If you read the notes though, they do try to stress a genderless position. The problem is that we only have he or she, and no neuter pronoun. However, the translators, especially in the last couple of decades, try to make it very clear that God, and the Holy Spirit are genderless.

Also, do you have any support for your claim? I know most major translations are actually going to more gender inclusive language. There was a big debate over it with the NABRE as well as the new edition of the NIV. The Jerusalem and NRSV already were that way.

 

[outhouse]

The word in Hebrew/Aramaic, ruah, is feminine.
The word in Greek, pneuma, is neuter.
The word in Latin, spiritus, is masculine.

If that's not what you ask, I've misunderstood what you asked?


It's probably a leftover from the days when "spiritus" was used, out of tradition (same as the Ten Commandments "Do not murder"), because it would be a major change (same as previous), and possibly out of fear of making it feel polytheistic. At an ignorant guess.

your only using half the statement ans a wee bit out of context my friend

Holy Spirit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

no mention of femininity here under the proper context.

In Judaism, the references to The Spirit of God, Ruach HaKodesh, The Holy Spirit of YHWH, abound, however it has rejected any idea of The Eternal God as being either Dual or Triune. The term ruach ha-kodesh (Hebrew: רוח הקודש, "holy spirit" also transliterated ruah ha-qodesh) occurs once in Psalm 51:11 and also twice in the Book of Isaiah [19] Those are the only three times that the precise phrase "ruach hakodesh" is used in the Hebrew Scriptures, although the noun ruach (רוח, literally "breath" or "wind") in various combinations, some referring to God's "spirit", is used often. The noun ruach, much like the English word breath, can mean either wind or some invisible moving force.[20]

However, Shekinah is derived from the Hebrew verb שכן. In Biblical Hebrew the word means literally to settle, inhabit, or dwell, which suggests the concept of a Holy Spirit, and is used frequently in the Hebrew Bible. (See Exodus 40:35, "Moses could not enter the Tent of Meeting, for the cloud rested [shakhan] upon it, and the glory of the Lord filled the Tabernacle." See also e.g. Genesis 9:27, 14:13, Psalms 37:3, Jeremiah 33:16), as well as the weekly Shabbat blessing recited in the Temple in Jerusalem ("May He who causes His name to dwell [shochan] in this House, cause to dwell among you love and brotherliness, peace and friendship").


using a definition not in context, is not proper. This also states no dualality, so what ever definition you give god, you also give the spirit

 

[outhouse]

If you read the notes though, they do try to stress a genderless position. The problem is that we only have he or she, and no neuter pronoun. However, the translators, especially in the last couple of decades, try to make it very clear that God, and the Holy Spirit are genderless.

Also, do you have any support for your claim? I know most major translations are actually going to more gender inclusive language. There was a big debate over it with the NABRE as well as the new edition of the NIV. The Jerusalem and NRSV already were that way.

God is male, he definately started as 100% male.


so now it is upon you to show which authors additions redefining the original deities as genderless, which goes against your statements as possible femininity

 

[Breathe]

your only using half the statement ans a wee bit out of context my frienmd

[...]

using a definition not in context, is not proper.

I don't see how I am using them out of context? Sure, this Wiki article doesn't link to it, but "Gender of the Holy Spirit", does; I was using a different article which deals, specifically, with the Gender of the Holy Spirit Wikipedia article, which deals with the issue in more detail, as well as that of Shekinah (also feminine).

In addition, the word has been taken as feminine.

From the article:

In Hebrew the word for Spirit (רו&#1492 (ruach) is feminine, (as is the word "shekhinah", which is used in the Hebrew Bible to indicate the presence of God, سكينة Sakinah in Arabic language, a word mentioned six times in the Quran).

In the Syriac language too, the grammatically feminine word ruah means "spirit", and writers in that language, both orthodox and Gnostic, used maternal images when speaking of the Holy Spirit.

[...]

The Syriac language, which was in common use around AD 300, is derived from Aramaic. In documents produced in Syriac by the early Miaphysite church (which later became the Syrian Orthodox Church) the feminine gender of the word for spirit gave rise to a theology in which the Holy Spirit was considered feminine.

 

[fallingblood]

God is male, he definately started as 100% male.


so now it is upon you to show which authors additions redefining the original deities as genderless, which goes against your statements as possible femininity

Can you show that beyond a doubt? Really, it wouldn't matter anyway. If you read the OT, you will see that God is also given female attributes.

And this doesn't go against my statement that God is genderless. God transcends gender and that is why God is able to be described in both ways.

And again, the fact that Wisdom was seen as feminine, and Wisdom was an aspect of God (or associated with God), shows that there are feminine attributes.

You're simply taking a very narrow view, and assuming it works throughout the entire gamut. It doesn't.

 

[outhouse]

I don't see how I am using them out of context? Sure, this Wiki article doesn't link to it, but "Gender of the Holy Spirit", does; I was using a different article which deals, specifically, with the Gender of the Holy Spirit Wikipedia article, which deals with the issue in more detail, as well as that of Shekinah (also feminine).

In addition, the word has been taken as feminine.

From the article:

again this is only speaking of grammatical gender which changes with languages


It is clearly stated that in jusaidm there is no dualality and the spirit is not the same as god like christianity, but is god.

and in that context Yahweh and El were both male

Early polytheistic Israelites worshipped [heres the key word] a "family" of gods

that had a female member Asherah, and El as the father, and Yahweh as the son.


Lets build a foundation shall we of common understanding, is that above correct???

 

[outhouse]

according to the christian church the ghost is a he

In the Catholic Church's practice, the Holy Spirit is referred to in English as "he",[13] and the Holy See has insisted that the practice be maintained in liturgical texts.


so if you want to argue the church is wrong, go ahead. But I dont think you have a chance of making a credible case against them.

Gender of the Holy Spirit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[fallingblood]

again this is only speaking of grammatical gender which changes with languages


It is clearly stated that in jusaidm there is no dualality and the spirit is not the same as god like christianity, but is god.

and in that context Yahweh and El were both male

Early polytheistic Israelites worshipped [heres the key word] a "family" of gods

that had a female member Asherah, and El as the father, and Yahweh as the son.


Lets build a foundation shall we of common understanding, is that above correct???

Let's build that foundation. Let's look at the OT. There we will see that God is not portrayed as just male, but instead, beyond gender.

Hosea 11:9 is probably the most clear example where it says "I am God and not man.."

Going further though, we do see associations with feminine characteristics, such as childbirth (Is 42:14), as a midwife (Ps 22:9-10), maternal conception (Nm 11:12; Dt 32:18), comforting as a mother would (Is 66:13), as loving children like a mother (Is 49:15), tenderness beyond that of a mother (Sirach 4:10), and then Wisdom, which is associated with God, is feminine. Clearly, the gender of God was not seen as just male, otherwise they wouldn't have described God with female characteristics. The fact that God was said to have created man and woman in God's image suggests that we are not talking about just a maleness. That is why most scholars agree that God transcends gender.

 

[outhouse]

Hosea 11:9 is probably the most clear example where it says "I am God and not man.."

which in context relates to "not human"



and yes the male god is seen as a creator, that is obvioius, and all those refferneces relate to creation not gender

 

[outhouse]

Let's look at the OT. There we will see that God is not portrayed as just male

and the earliest traditions we have, the very foundation of god, is 100% male

 

[fallingblood]

according to the christian church the ghost is a he

In the Catholic Church's practice, the Holy Spirit is referred to in English as "he",[13] and the Holy See has insisted that the practice be maintained in liturgical texts.


so if you want to argue the church is wrong, go ahead. But I dont think you have a chance of making a credible case against them.

Gender of the Holy Spirit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You read way too much into that. The Catholic Church, by calling the Holy Spirit "he" and saying that must be maintained in liturgical texts, doesn't suggest that the Holy Spirit is actually male.

In order to actually understand this, one has to actually know the background behind this. The background being that there is quite a bit of debate about how to refer to the Trinity, and it's three parts. Some (mainly feminist theologians), want to change all the language to female attributes. This is actually quite a serious debate as it would change a lot of tradition.

More so, if you read Catholic theologians, you will see that most agree that God is beyond gender, and so is the Holy Spirit. However, they also don't want to change tradition.

Really, you're taking this piece out of the context in which it was created.

 

[fallingblood]

which in context relates to "not human"

and yes the male god is seen as a creator, that is obvioius, and all those refferneces relate to creation not gender

Actually, many theologians and scholars see Hosea being clear that God is beyond gender. Gender is a human thing. It is something we define. God is beyond that.

Also, if you read the references that I posted, you would see that they are relating to God, and God's attributes. They imply a feminine aspect as well.

and the earliest traditions we have, the very foundation of god, is 100% male

Obviously that changed. The OT showcases God to be beyond gender. Moving the goalposts and claiming that way back in time, that was different, doesn't change what we have now. Ideas evolve, and really, it is ridiculous to try to trap them in the past. To do such doesn't make sense. It would be like me proving evolution is wrong because Darwins idea of evolution is flawed, or that those who came before him, with their ideas of evolution, were wrong. It doesn't work like that, and really is ridiculous.

The OT, as it stands today, shows God in both male and female roles. It portrays God as being beyond gender. Maybe those ideas had evolved, but that means very little. The fact that we can look at the OT, and see that God was described as being beyond gender, tells us quite a bit.

You really are just taking an extremely narrow view here, and assuming that it rang true for all time. That really isn't an argument.

 

[outhouse]

That is why most scholars agree that God transcends gender.

citation needed. so its not true

jesus is god, and he is 100% male, so you fail there.

The father is god, so you fail there as well.

the church views the spirit as male, so you fail there.

 

[outhouse]

lets not ignore the facts here.


History of ancient Israel and Judah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The religion of the Israelites of Iron Age I, like many Ancient Near Eastern religions, was based on the cult of the ancestors and the worship of family gods (the "gods of the fathers").[73] The major deities were not numerous – El, Asherah, and Yahweh, with Baal as a fourth god in the early period.[74] By the early monarchy El and Yahweh had become unified and Asherah did not continue as a separate state cult

What this shows is the ealiest belief and refferences we have of Israelite deities are not genderless, but clearly male and female.

So at what date did man redefine deities to be genderless exactly??????

without a exact date you fail. And we have refferences from Gjohn that states male, so you have your work cut out for you.

unless you keep ignoring facts and using intellectual dishonesty like Hosea 11;9

 

[outhouse]

Some (mainly feminist theologians), want to change all the language to female attributes. This is actually quite a serious debate as it would change a lot of tradition.

you mean the gays inflicting their lifestyle choices???

 

[fallingblood]

citation needed. so its not true

Really? Since I didn't cite my source (which you hardly ever do, and when you do, it isn't really a credible source), it isn't true? There is no logic there. If you want, I can start giving you a list. The Cambridge Companion to the Trinity is also an excellent resource that will back up my claim.

jesus is god, and he is 100% male, so you fail there.

Jesus is just one aspect. Jesus himself does not constitute all of what God is. Jesus only constitutes a portion of what God is. So your argument here suggests that you completely fail to understand what the Trinity is, and it fails on the fact that it's making an argument that simply doesn't work with Trinitarian ideas of God.

That would be like me saying that water is freezing, as ice is water. It just makes no real sense as it ignores so much.

The father is god, so you fail there as well.

I don't really fail here. You simply don't understand the terminology here. Yes, God is called the Father. However, God is called such because he was the Father of Jesus. That is really why the Trinitarian approach has kept the terminology of Father as opposed to other suggestions.

In the OT, God was also sometimes called Father, but it was not in a way that denoted gender. It was to symbolize something quite different. That God acted like a Father. It is the same way that a woman can act like a Father in certain situations. Meaning, there are attributes associated with being a Father, and that is really what is being stressed here.

At the same time, in the OT, as I pointed out, there are feminine aspects associated with God as well. You can't simply ignore those and pretend they don't exist.

the church views the spirit as male, so you fail there.

No, the Church (and this is only the Catholic church, regarding with liturgical texts, nothing else) states that the Spirit must be referred to as a "he." If you read Catholic theologians, you will see that it is quite different when actually discussing the Spirit. Gerald O'Collins is a great source here as he is considered an authority on the subject, and is Catholic, and teaches at a Catholic college.

 

[kylixguru]

I seem to think the holy spirit may be a female entity. it kind of makes sense when u think of it as an archetype of the nuclear family. Father, Mother, Son. only that scripture is somehow adulterated. the spirit of God is the feminine divine that God uses to do his will. a bit like shakti and shiva in hinduism. maybe that's why there is a common belief in the virgin mary, isis, mother nature, as a type of the feminine divine . Sun, Moon, Earth / Father, Mother, son. the pattern just fits don't you think? the Catholics maybe on to something. It's the left side of God which has been erronously attributed to the dark side of God. Its probably the female side of God.

Everyone has both a masculine and feminine aspect to their being, so yes, most definitely the 3rd member of the Godhead would be feminine toward the 1st and 2nd members of the Godhead. I am physically a man, but I am feminine towards Christ.

 

[fallingblood]

you mean the gays inflicting their lifestyle choices???

After a statement like this, which is beyond ignorance, there is no more reason to waste my time with you. Especially when you refuse to actually read any actual source.

 

[kylixguru]

God is male, he definately started as 100% male.


so now it is upon you to show which authors additions redefining the original deities as genderless, which goes against your statements as possible femininity

Neither the masculine or the feminine attributes of God should be denied.
Jesus was feminine toward the Father.
I am feminine toward Jesus.
My wife is feminine toward me.
My children are feminine toward my wife.

God as a whole, the 3 personages of the Godhead in union, contain both masculine and feminine components. Just because I have a male physical configuration doesn't mean that I cannot and do not have a female spiritual configuration that enables me to function as a bride to Christ on the spiritual level.