could the holy spirit be a female entity?

[Storm]

what imstating has nothing to with literalism or lack of

OK, I got my threads confused, let me reboot: Why do you take what you yourself consider a "complicated issue," ignore all the complications and dismiss the whole thing with "no, never?"

And then get huffy and start flinging insults when I say "that's an overstatement?"

 

[outhouse]

Why do you take what you yourself consider a "complicated issue," ignore all the complications and dismiss the whole thing with "no, never?"

nothing was dismissed with my clarification below, and I stand behind my statements


I even clarified to prove femininity you would need specific text to do such, which is not sexuality. And then only grammatical femininity was shown which doesnt always equate to femininity




is we look back into Insraelites polytheistic past, they had a queen of heaven, a female fertility deity that had existed and had more of a following then El or Yahweh in different cultures. Aherahs followers were sidespread in the levant.

But she was neevr linked with the spirit of god which was 100% male in nature.

To understand gods spirit, you must understand god.

The current deity of judaism is Yahweh who was a warrior god, a culture would never give feminine traits to such a powerful figure as Yahweh who they placed there whole cultures safety in.


We know Yahweh took on Els traits as the Father and having Asherah as a wife, early on. But we also have El and Yahweh being compiled in the bible after the monotheistic government took control of Israel. Again both deities 100% male.

Again no feminine tie to gods spirit. Not only that Judaism never had dualality with god and his spirit, they never gave it different peronas the way christians did with the trinity.

If you wanted to prove femininity in any part of the evolving abrahamic deity concept, you would need to find a specific time and why a author would have done such, to build a case. I dont think its there myself.

And then get huffy

the only reason would be that you tend to talk down to people, and I havent talked down to you to promote such behaviour

 

[sojourner]

what imstating has nothing to with literalism or lack of

Im dealing with actual history here. not later interpretations based on the material as a whole.


We have it established that god as started by Israelites was male, which also makes his spirit male, as dualism wasnt used in judaism.


So now we can address how long god and or the spirit stayed Male.


we know El and Yahweh were both males, we know they were redacted into one deity after 622 BC So we know for atleast 600 years both deities were viewed as male. After the compilation to Yahweh who was a "storm" warrior deity, was also clearly male was he not??

It is safe to say that for 1200 years of judaism the evolving god concepts [which included a sprit] were typically male

I can provide a painting of Yahweh from 800 BC that does show male genitles, but it wouldnt be prudent for this forum.


so does this only leave christianity to debate?

Two problems here:
"The Spirit of God" is not the same thing as "the Holy Spirit." "The Spirit of God" is a Hebrew construction, that's faaar more physical than our idea of spirit. In fact, it means "breath." I don't think the Jews view breath as having gender.

Second, "the Holy Spirit" is probably more a later, Gentile construct -- or at least a construct that was hellenized. They didn't imbue spirit with gender, either.

 

[outhouse]

Two problems here:
"The Spirit of God" is not the same thing as "the Holy Spirit." "The Spirit of God" is a Hebrew construction, that's faaar more physical than our idea of spirit. In fact, it means "breath." I don't think the Jews view breath as having gender.

Second, "the Holy Spirit" is probably more a later, Gentile construct -- or at least a construct that was hellenized. They didn't imbue spirit with gender, either.

And I agree with you brother.

my point for the hebrew version, is that spirit was viewed as god which was clearly male.

correct, and that they didnt attribute a positive relationship to genderless either, and with the attributation of the word "father" sets the deity as male, as well as jesus being male.

 

[Storm]

nothing was dismissed with my clarification below, and I stand behind my statements

The fact that you clarified in subsequent posts does not negate the fact that you made an overstatement.

the only reason would be that you tend to talk down to people, and I havent talked down to you to promote such behaviour

I tend to express annoyance with people whose behavior I find annoying. Tell me you don't.

And you're right - you haven't merely 'talked down' to me, you've outright insulted me on multiple levels, repeatedly. I contest a point, and you get personal in an effort to dodge. Now, I'm a big girl and I can take it, but don't try to take the moral high ground, ok?

 

[sojourner]

And I agree with you brother.

my point for the hebrew version, is that spirit was viewed as god which was clearly male.

correct, and that they didnt attribute a positive relationship to genderless either, and with the attributation of the word "father" sets the deity as male, as well as jesus being male.

BUT...
the breath thereof has no gender, which is what the OT refers to -- breath.

 

[outhouse]

BUT...
the breath thereof has no gender, which is what the OT refers to -- breath.

breath = god in the context they wrote. again no dualality correct ?


plenty of script states for a male spirit, but none for a female

 

[outhouse]

ok?

fair enough

I treat people how im treated, and want to be treated as such in return

 

[Storm]

fair enough

I treat people how im treated, and want to be treated as such in return

Ditto.

I honestly don't recall how we got into this pattern, or who pushed first, but based on what you've said here, I suspect part of the source might be you misinterpreting my attacks on your arguments as personal jabs.

If that's the case, I suggest you look over my conversations with other people here. You'll see that I don't pull punches in debate whether I like you or not. I don't favor or pick on any particular theological persuasion. I take every argument on its own merits, and I'm as likely to defend atheism as Christianity.

I'm not that easy to pigeon-hole.

 

[outhouse]

I suspect part of the source might be you misinterpreting my attacks on your arguments as personal jabs.

pretty good assesment, I agree.


AS far as this thread goes, I dont think anyone has made case for a all female spirit yet.

 

[Storm]

pretty good assesment, I agree.


AS far as this thread goes, I dont think anyone has made case for a all female spirit yet.

Eh, I haven't much in the way of opinion on that. Maybe, maybe not... depends on one's preferred interpretation, and holds no relevance to me.


ETA: Truce/ reboot, then?

 

[sojourner]

breath = god in the context they wrote. again no dualality correct ?


plenty of script states for a male spirit, but none for a female

No. the breath is not God. The breath is God's breath -- the same as our breath, as in moving air, which has no gender, even though the breather does have gender.

The breath is not God in the way that the Holy Spirit of the NT is God. But even then, hellenistic spirit does not have gender.

 

[outhouse]

Truce/ reboot, then?

you bet

 

[outhouse]

No. the breath is not God. The breath is God's breath -- the same as our breath, as in moving air, which has no gender, even though the breather does have gender.

that is something i can understand, as its not in a relationship defined as the spirit, and again, what only found 3 times in the OT ?

more like a attributed aspect more then a definition, understanding one will not get a clear definition

But even then, hellenistic spirit does not have gender.

doesnt Gjohn label it as a he?

 

[fallingblood]

I seem to think the holy spirit may be a female entity. it kind of makes sense when u think of it as an archetype of the nuclear family. Father, Mother, Son. only that scripture is somehow adulterated. the spirit of God is the feminine divine that God uses to do his will. a bit like shakti and shiva in hinduism. maybe that's why there is a common belief in the virgin mary, isis, mother nature, as a type of the feminine divine . Sun, Moon, Earth / Father, Mother, son. the pattern just fits don't you think? the Catholics maybe on to something. It's the left side of God which has been erronously attributed to the dark side of God. Its probably the female side of God.

I wanted to go back to the original question, as I have been thinking about it. I think what Gjallarhorn stated has some merit. To paraphrase, does the Holy Spirit have genitalia? Clearly, the answer is no.

Now, throughout history, there have been those who have either suggested that the Holy Spirit was male or female. Our earliest sources never talk about a gender though, because it simply didn't matter. Even when it was depicted, it was depicted as a dove, or the like. The Holy Spirit, simply, was not understood as a human, as a person in the modern sense. It was beyond that. It was genderless (and the Greek supports this).

However, I think taking the Holy Spirit, putting it in a box, and claiming that it can't have evolved, or that it must be understood in this way or that way simply is illogical. First off, we are never given a complete and definite definition of what the Holy Spirit is. That is something that humans have tried to understand for centuries. So it really isn't clear (even though the basics are pretty much understood. In situations like this, it really are the specifics that need to be worked out. Theology though never dies, it is ever changing).

If you want to see the Holy Spirit as female, or God as female (Jesus really is stuck as a male, even though some have argued against that within theological terms), that's fine. There is nothing dictating that they must be a certain gender. And in fact, many have seen it just that way (and to an extreme, Jesus as being female), especially within Feminist theological studies (which I find quite fascinating, and am happy that such study had and is taking place as it really has been a benefit).

Most theologians and scholars though usually see God and the Holy Spirit (again, Jesus in an exception simply because he was fully human) as beyond gender. As in, the gender just doesn't matter. If one needs God to be motherly, they can have that (and one can find verses to support that). If they need the Holy Spirit to be manly, they can have that. But neither are necessary. And this is exactly what there is debate going on about the actual terminology used here.

 

[sojourner]

doesnt Gjohn label it as a he?

Provide reference plz

 

[outhouse]

Provide reference plz

King James Version (17th century)Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth:
for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak:
and he will shew you things to come

.when the Holy Spirit is referred to by the grammatically masculine word Parakletos (Counsellor, Comforter), the pronoun is masculine, as in John 16:7-8

 

[Breathe]

because it was attributed to a male deity.

But is this male in the literal sense (has a penis) or metaphorical form (masculine in personality)? I think the latter, which is why I think that Shekinah would just be the female aspect of this masculine force.

but I do get your drift of "can spirituality have a gender" which I could state if I had a sprit, it would be male.

Really? I don't think my spirit would be male or female (provided I have one, which I personally think there probably is). It's only the body, in my opinion, that would be gendered.

good question because the sprit concept evolved, it can not be defined statically, ever, as many have tried to do.

Although then it points to: which is the authentic? The old one, or the newer? I don't think it can be done like that. Kind of makes the discussion a bit moot, really.

Judaism looked at the spirit as god himself and male.

Really? That's not been my experience at all.

christianity has many different views, allthough none female, and some decribed as genderless, but christianity was a wide and varied movement, and when getting into decribing the christian deity, one is literally opening a can of worms.

Not quite true: the Syriac Orthodox church, it's considered feminine, and probably some independent Messianic Judaism groups.

But I agree, describing the Christian deity is opening a can of worms. Then again, if you keep opening up enough cans, you may find a can of um... peaches.

 

[seth phoenix]

Nope, never.

is we look back into Insraelites polytheistic past, they had a queen of heaven, a female fertility deity that had existed and had more of a following then El or Yahweh in different cultures. Aherahs followers were sidespread in the levant.

But she was neevr linked with the spirit of god which was 100% male in nature.

To understand gods spirit, you must understand god.

The current deity of judaism is Yahweh whop was a warrior god, a culture would never give feminine traits to such a powerful figure as Yahweh who they placed there whole cultures safety in.


We know Yahweh took on Els traits as the Father and having Asherah as a wife, early on. But we also have El and Yahweh being compiled in the bible after the monotheistic government took control of Israel. Again both deities 100% male.

Again no feminine tie to gods spirit. Not only that Judaism never had dualality with god and his spirit, they never gave it different peronas the way christians did with the trinity.

If you wanted to prove femininity in any part of the evolving abrahamic deity concept, you would need to find a specific time and why a author would have done such, to build a case. I dont think its there myself.

elohim has some female and plural connotations, i believe. and its a name attributed to yahweh, so how do they suddenly evolve into a single deity...the levitical teachings probably originated from the egyptians considering how long moses stayed there..am simply trying to establish a connection between the holy spirit and the feminine goddesses of other cultures..

 

[seth phoenix]

So it isn't incorrect to think of the Holy Spirit as female, but probably better to see both God and the Holy Spirit as beyond gender.

am only a hard wired human, its hard for me to think beyond gender..would not make sense to me..
i even assign genders to cars. like pick-up trucks are male and the sedans are female..