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Creation and Evolution Compatible...Questions

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
No!

Religion and science can both be wrong or both be right. I believe they are both wrong but religion is closer to the reality than science. This doesn't mean there is a God or isn't a God, merely that religion is closer on change in species.

Are you saying no to "It would only take one valid evidence of god dun it by magic to falsify evolution. In 150+ years despite the myriad claims of creationists"? If you are please explain your reason for denying basic logic.

Luckily what you believe doesnt effect the facts.

Note that the largest sect of Christianity (and most of the 50,000 other sects) believe in evolution.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Not sure what this has to do with what I was pointing out.

Science doesn't ignore the question of how life originated, not at all. That falls under a field of study called abiogenesis. Evolution does not deal with how life originated, as it deals with the diversification of life after it was already here. Just like gravitational theory doesn't deal with how life originated. Every scientific theory does not explain every single thing in the world. But again, you already knew all that. ;)

Science tends to look at each "law of nature" in a vacuum. It does a poor job of seeing how something in the real world behaves. Just like a man dying of two diseases is in big trouble in the hospital since they usually can only treat one disease at a time.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Are you saying no to "It would only take one valid evidence of god dun it by magic to falsify evolution. In 150+ years despite the myriad claims of creationists"? If you are please explain your reason for denying basic logic.

No, your logic is sound except everyone keeps treating ToE like it's real theory, real science. It's not theory nor science. It doesn't stand in the absense of conflicting data or in its presence. It doesn't stand at all without crutches and props.

There is no theory. There is only assumption.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Perhaps diatoms have never suffered a near extinction event. This would be natural for a simple species that inhabits much of the earth.

This was interesting.....


Diatoms (some of which are quite beautiful) were obviously an early form of life and by their sheer volume, contributed their share of the oxygen in our atmosphere. (and still do) Plankton are also a major food source for marine creatures such as whales, so Genesis begins with the creation of sentient life in the oceans. The creator was obviously way ahead in his preparation timetable, making food available whilst providing oxygen for the land dwellers to come. Vegetation takes in Co2 and give us oxygen as well. How does such an incredible system just appear out of nowhere for no apparent reason? Not to mention the water cycle and numerous other systems that all work in harmony to create a perfect atmosphere for life to flourish. How far can we stretch these "flukes" that have no intelligence directing them?

It is obvious that the Bible is way ahead of evolution when it comes to observable planning in the order of creation. :)
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
Perhaps diatoms have never suffered a near extinction event. This would be natural for a simple species that inhabits much of the earth.
Perhaps you know nothing about plankton and should remain silent so that people don't reach the conclusion that your ignorance is somewhat greater than that.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
No, your logic is sound except everyone keeps treating ToE like it's real theory, real science. It's not theory nor science. It doesn't stand in the absense of conflicting data or in its presence. It doesn't stand at all without crutches and props.

There is no theory. There is only assumption.
Wrong again. Michael Le Page puts it well:

There are all sorts of findings and experiments that could have falsified evolution. In the century-and-a-half since Darwin published his theory, not one has
To count as science, hypotheses and theories should make predictions that might turn out to be wrong. In other words, it should be possible to falsify these ideas. Some claim this is not true of evolution, but this is simply because we find it hard to imagine how different life might have been if it had not evolved.

When asked what would disprove evolution, the biologist J. B. S. Haldane reportedly growled: “Fossil rabbits in the Precambrian”. What he meant is that the progression over time seen in the millions of fossils unearthed around the world is exactly what evolutionary theory predicts.

Unicellular organisms, for example, appear before multicellular ones. Jawless fish precede jawed fish. Lunged fish precede amphibians. Amphibians precede reptiles. Reptiles with scales precede mammals and birds with modified scales (fur and feathers). Apes precede humans. All it would take is one or two exceptions to seriously challenge the theory.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
When asked what would disprove evolution, the biologist J. B. S. Haldane reportedly growled: “Fossil rabbits in the Precambrian”. What he meant is that the progression over time seen in the millions of fossils unearthed around the world is exactly what evolutionary theory predicts.

The question isn't whether species change or not. Rabbits in the precambrian would simply suggest a God with a warped sense of humor. Nobody is suggesting that. Nobody wants that.

The question is what causes change in species and the answer is that all observed change in life is sudden. All observed change in all life is apparently related to consciousness and behavior and not on natural selection. I'm not suggesting that all biology is wrong. I'm not suggesting any experiment is wrong. I'm saying there is no experiment to support natural selection and our interpretation of the data is wrong. It's not species, or experiment, or change or God that is wrong. It is interpretation.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The question isn't whether species change or not. Rabbits in the precambrian would simply suggest a God with a warped sense of humor. Nobody is suggesting that. Nobody wants that.

The question is what causes change in species and the answer is that all observed change in life is sudden. All observed change in all life is apparently related to consciousness and behavior and not on natural selection. I'm not suggesting that all biology is wrong. I'm not suggesting any experiment is wrong. I'm saying there is no experiment to support natural selection and our interpretation of the data is wrong. It's not species, or experiment, or change or God that is wrong. It is interpretation.

And you are back to the claims that you cannot support. Why would anyone believe you after you keep refusing to supply any evidence for your claims?
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Define evolution and then decide whether or not evolution can happen before life. Then decide whether life is the product of evolution or is evolution is a product of life.
There cannot be “Evolution” before LIFE.

LIFE has to already exist for any life to evolve, and evolving passing genes to the next generations.

So essentially every offspring required parents, and that parent required parents of their own, and so on.

You can’t have evolution coming from nothing or non-living matters. And you cannot have evolution before life.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
The question isn't whether species change or not. Rabbits in the precambrian would simply suggest a God with a warped sense of humor. Nobody is suggesting that. Nobody wants that.

The question is what causes change in species and the answer is that all observed change in life is sudden. All observed change in all life is apparently related to consciousness and behavior and not on natural selection. I'm not suggesting that all biology is wrong. I'm not suggesting any experiment is wrong. I'm saying there is no experiment to support natural selection and our interpretation of the data is wrong. It's not species, or experiment, or change or God that is wrong. It is interpretation.

Evolution in Action: Three Experiments Demonstrating Natural Selection

July 7, 2011, Decoded Science.

by Wendy A.M. Prosser, Ph.D.

Like any scientific theory, the theory of evolution by natural selection can be tested by experiment. Since the publication of On the Origin of Species in 1859, biologists have devised many ingenious ways to examine the effect of natural selection on living organisms. This article looks at three such studies.

Endler’s Guppies
In the late 1970s, American zoologist John Endler tested Darwin’s theory using a popular species of aquarium fish, the guppy (Poecilia reticulata). Male guppies have brightly colored spots to attract females, but these spots also attract predators. It had previously been observed that males living in streams where there were many predatory fish tended to have fewer spots, which lessened their risk of being eaten, whereas those who lived in streams with fewer predators had more spots.


The number of spots on male guppies is related to the number of predators in their environment. Photograph by R. Champagne

To replicate this effect experimentally, Endler placed groups of male and female guppies in three ponds that were identical except that one pond contained no predators, one contained a species of predatory fish that preys specifically on guppies, and one contained a different predatory fish that does not feed on guppies.

After leaving the guppies to breed for 20 months (representing several generations for the fish, which begin reproducing when they are about 3 months old), Endler found that the males in the ponds containing no predators or predators that do not eat guppies had significantly more spots than the males that shared their pond with a guppy predator. As male guppies’ coloration is inherited from their fathers, this experiment provides strong evidence that spot number in guppies has evolved as a “trade-off” between the need to attract mates and the need to avoid being eaten.

Ecotypic Variation in the Dominican Anole
While Endler’s guppies show how natural selection can lead to a marked change in a character that affects the survival and reproduction of a population, recent research on a lizard, the Dominican anole (Anolis oculatus), illustrates one way in which new species might arise.


The toe length, scale pattern and other features of the Dominican anole vary according to its habitat. Photograph by B. Kimmel

In this experiment, researchers placed similar groups of anoles in secure enclosures located in a variety of island habitats ranging from dry coastal woodland to mountain rainforest. When they later measured characters that had earlier been shown to be at least partly inherited, such as leg and toe length, the width of the head and scale color and shape, they found that these features now varied between the different lizard populations in a pattern that depended on their habitat.

This finding is especially interesting because it hints at how speciation might occur in nature. If the experimental groups of A. oculatus had been kept in isolation for many more generations, the differences between them might have eventually become so great that zoologists would classify them as separate species.

Indeed, splitting of species due to geographical separation – a process known as “allopatric speciation” – appears to have happened already among anole lizards in the Caribbean, where different islands, with different habitats, are each home to different species.

Industrial Melanism in the Peppered Moth
Perhaps the most famous example of evolution in action is the case of the peppered moth (Biston betularia), which illustrates the concept of “selection pressure” – the force that drives evolution.

Evolution_in_Action_Fig.3-300x184.jpg

The black form of the peppered moth thrived in polluted industrial areas. Photograph by L.B. Tettenborn

The British peppered moth feeds at night and spends the day resting on tree trunks, where it is at risk of being eaten by birds. Until the mid-1890s, all peppered moths had a pale, speckled coloration that provided camouflage against the pale lichen that covered the bark of their trees. In the latter half of the 19th century, however, a black form of the moth was first observed, and by 1900 almost all peppered moths in urban areas were black, whereas most of those in rural areas remained pale.

This 50-year period coincided with the rise of industrialization in British cities, and it was suggested that the change in moth color in urban areas was due to sulfur dioxide fumes from factories killing the lichen on tree trunks. The dark bark beneath was good camouflage for black peppered moths, but pale moths were now at a disadvantage because they were more easily spotted by predatory birds.

In 1956, the entomologist H. Bernard Kettlewell set about examining this hypothesis by collecting, marking and releasing both black and pale peppered moths in Birmingham (an urban area) and Dorset (a rural area). He then laid more traps to recapture the marked moths, and observed that a smaller proportion of the pale form was recaptured in Birmingham and a smaller proportion of the dark form in Dorset. This finding was consistent with the suggestion that pale moths were more conspicuous – and therefore easier prey for birds – in areas with dark, polluted trees, whereas dark moths were more likely to be eaten in rural areas with pale, lichen-covered trees. It could be concluded that the selection pressure of bird predation had driven the evolution of two different forms of B. betularia.

Kettlewell’s experiment has been repeated, and his conclusion confirmed, several times, most recently in 2003. Since the Clean Air Act of 1956, however, emissions of sulfur dioxide have decreased in the UK, and these later studies have documented the decline of the dark peppered moth in industrial regions. By 1985, it had largely disappeared from the Midlands and was found in high numbers only in the far North East of England.

Short-lived Species Provide Evidence of Natural Selection
It might be difficult to observe the evolution of long-lived animals such as tortoises, elephants and humans, but, as these three experiments show, fish, insects and other species with short generation times are ideal subjects for the study of natural selection in action.

Sources
Butler, D., Gillman, M., Metcalfe, J., Robinson, D. Life. Milton Keynes: The Open University, 2008.

Cook, L. The Rise and Fall of the Melanic Peppered Moth. Accessed 06-07-11.

Endler, J. Natural Selection on Color Patterns in Poecilia reticulata. Evolution. Accessed 06-07-11.

Thorpe, R., Reardon, J., Malhotra, A. Common Garden and Natural Selection Experiments Support Ecotypic Differentiation in the Dominican Anole (Anolis oculatus). The American Naturalist. Accessed 06-07-11.

Note: The NCSE website indicates: In the late 1990s, biologist Michael E. N. Majerus re-examined Kettlewell’s work and confirmed all of his major findings. He’s not the only one. Since Kettlewell’s original experiments were published, they have been independently replicated repeatedly. Each time, color variation among moths is linked to differential fitness that affects the distribution of the color trait in the next generation—the very definition of natural selection at work. More recently, the genetic basis for the coloration variation has been uncovered, adding further validation.

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Now if your complaint is that these are "sudden" that's simply the nature of the beast, some evolution is fast, some slow. Faster evolution may be seen in the life of a career, slower evolution must be inferred from multiple lines of data, none of which preserve every link in the chain as that would require the presence of every member of the entire population as in moves from one species to another, or buds off a new species. This can, however, be sampled in ring species where the variation is spread geographically rather than temporally.

See: ActionBioscience - promoting bioscience literacy

My conclusion: Often you need to assemble two or more pieces of the puzzle before you can clearly see where, once put together, they fit into the whole.
 
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tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
The creation in chapter1 describes the creation of the universe from the Big Bang (let there be light - initially photons only existed prior to even atoms) the creation of the universe, the creation of the stars, earth moon, sea life, plants, animals and humans.
I think the creation story of Genesis chapter 1 is a myth, fiction, based on ideas of the time about how the world came into being. We should not bother to attempt to match it up to the real scientific explanation; that misses the point.
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
God has no physical form. It is his qualities that we reflect, not his shape.
I think there is a spiritual realm containing everything non-material, and that in this realm there are spiritual bodies and such. The design of our physical body is based on the design of spiritual bodies.
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
My "holy book" is not just a bunch of meaningless stories....it is a history that explains the Creator's interaction with his human creation, and in a relatively simple way it tells us how the universe began. That there was a "beginning" to it all. Science agrees.
Science does not agree with the Bible, sorry.
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
It might surprise you to know that there is no actual evidence that is not interpreted by scientists to fit a pre-conceived idea. Evolution (of the macro variety) cannot be proven at all. It is suggested as a possibility, but presented in language that makes it appear to be fact.
Evolution is very well supported by the scientific evidence using the scientific method.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
A scientist is supposed to start with an hypothesis and then design experiment around it. The ToE was designed around the musings of a 19th century scientist.
That demonstrate your ignorance.

It wasn’t mere “musings”.

Before Charles Darwin wrote On The Origin Of Species in 1859, he traveled around the world on the HMS Beagle from 1831 - 1836, and kept records of his findings of extant species of South America, Australia, New Zealand, including various Atlantic and Pacific islands, including the Galápagos Islands.

This voyage was part of field work, not only on biology (of both animals and plant life), but also on anthropology and geology. So his field experiences, are parts of his evidences that he have recorded, and taken some specimens back with him to England.

His other evidences come from his works at Cambridge University (eg the University Museum) and the Zoological Society and Geological Society at London, Natural History Museum, etc, where he was able to examine and compare remains and fossils (hence evidences).

A part of Scientific Method, is observation and repeated testings, which he did before having his book published in 1859.

Not only that, there were other noted scientists of his day before who had examined his notes and researches, offering their own expertise, which allow him to understand his works better.

Charles Lyell (geology), Richard Owen (biologist), Joseph Hooker (botanist), John Gould (ornithologist), John Herschel (mathematician, chemist & astronomer), Thomas Henry Huxley (biologist), all knew him before On Origin.

And last but not least, was another biologist and geologist, Alfred Russel Wallace, another scientist, who have traveled to the Amazon and Malay Archipelago, was also writing a similar papers on Natural Selection.

Biologists over the decades following Darwin’s death, have re-examined his voyage (as well as retracing Wallace’s field works), have greatly expanded and updated our knowledge on Natural Selection.

Natural Selection is still a very valid evolutionary mechanism, as well as that of 20th century mechanisms, Mutations and Genetic Drift.

Darwin did his evidence-gathering and observation, for 2 and a half decades, long before he penned On Origin.

So your talk of musings, is nothing more than ignorance and straw man.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Like the Iliad and the Odyssey... no, wait, they are still around. Must be from the Creator then. And Plato's Dialogues.They were mentioned on a tv show earlier today in connection with Atlantis. Also from your Creator then.

Or perhaps there was no great attempt to destroy them? The devil takes care of his own, you know. :D

He is the ruler of this world until God tells him his time is up....soon we hope.

It will? How long do you estimate before all evolutionists have disappeared from the Earth? Or did God tell you how many years it would take?

It will be very interesting to find out, won't it? I don't believe that there are any evolutionists in God's plans for the future....why would there be?

Nope. Everybody knows it means circle.

In ancient times, many people thought that the earth was flat. In the fifth century B.C.E., Greek scientists suggested that it was a sphere. But long before that—in the eighth century B.C.E. Isaiah referred to “the circle of the earth,” using a word that may also be rendered “sphere.”—Isaiah 40:22

A sphere is a circle. It means "round". :p The last time I looked the earth was round...no? Circumnavigation proves that the earth is a sphere. No one fell off.

And the Bible also says in other places that the Earth stands on pillars.

Oh good grief! The pillars are figurative....intended to convey foundations. No scientists back then to explain gravity ya know.

Then how come there are many Bibles with different contents? "Different religious groups include different books in their biblical canons, in varying orders, and sometimes divide or combine books. Christian Bibles range from the 66 books of the Protestant canon to the 81 books of the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church canon." God ordered different contents for different people?
Books of the Bible - Wikipedia

People are free to choose whatever translation they like, but the most widely accepted Bible canon is the one I believe stands up to scrutiny. Apocryphal books do not harmonise with the rest. The Bible is one story, told by many writers over 1610 years. All were Jewish and from diverse backgrounds. Its internal harmony is evidence of its divine inspiration.

Genesis to Revelation is the story of God's dealings with the human race. It tells us a lot about him and his requirements....and how our relationship with our Creator was sabotaged. Revelation tells us how we get back what we lost in Eden. In between we learn about the details as they were gradually revealed. It's a fascinating journey and the destination is well worth the travel sickness.

When the earth was created it was set on foundations and those foundations are held up by pillars. But why put the foundations on pillars at all? The answer lies in 2Pe 3:5 "...the earth standing out of the water and in the water:" It is to elevate the foundations so that the earth would not be submerged in the waters below."
The pillars of the earth - how many and where are they ?

Now that is funny....if that were the case then the earth would not have been flooded in the first place.

Figurative explanations satisfied unscientific minds. There was much to learn and humans have progressed some in their knowledge of how the universe operates....but they still have a long way to go....
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Science does not agree with the Bible, sorry.
Who told you that? Scientists? :D

Evolution is very well supported by the scientific evidence using the scientific method.
Who told you that? Evolutionists? :rolleyes: LOL

Perhaps you would like to furnish some proof for your assertions?
But you cannot post anything that relies on belief or faith....OK? That is what believers have, and science disparages....so science must have so much more. I personally haven't seen any. But knock yourself out. :)


Why should someone feel compelled to continue a discussion which provides no benefit to themselves and which they don't enjoy?

Beats the heck out of me! :shrug: Why would people enter a debate forum if they run away without debating? Is a debate meant to benefit someone or is it supposed to provide both sides of a topic so that readers can come to informed conclusions? What conclusion can one draw if the debater just stops debating? Out of answers perhaps?
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
Why would people enter a debate forum if they run away without debating? Is a debate meant to benefit someone or is it supposed to provide both sides of a topic so that readers can come to informed conclusions? What conclusion can one draw if the debater just stops debating? Out of answers perhaps?

When one side is as dogmatic as you appear to be, we can all see why many just give up. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
 
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