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Creation and Evolution Compatible...Questions

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
"Even the multiverse scenarios are based on generalizations of known physical laws."

Yes just like steady state and big crunch were, it's not too difficult to make your theory fit the math, when unencumbered by direct empirical evidence to comply with..

Yes, and that is part of why science requires testability.

but these are also known physical laws that apparently led to creative beings bent on reverse engineering their own universe.. oops!

That's where the multiverse ultimately shoots itself in the foot. In order to produce our universe by chance, you need an infinite probability machine which can produce anything at all...... except anything that could ever be described as God, which would obviously defeat the entire purpose.

Why you think it's the *purpose* as opposed to just a weird, neat idea, I don't know.

As Andre Linde said, (and others agree) it is feasible that even we can one day produce our own universe, and it's impossible to rule this out as being the origination of our own. So in order to maintain strict belief in an undesigned universe, you must also presume that we are living in that original miraculous 'virgin birth' universe, not one of the ultimately infinite artifacts that would follow from the 'anything possible' scenario.

Again, it isn't the *goal* to have a non-created universe. If it turns out to be possible to create universes we might learn enough to judge whether ours was created by an intelligence or not.


who created the Rosetta Stone? We can deduce creative forces without directly testing the creator because we DO know something about how both act, increasingly so in the information age

And again, the Rosetta stone is a type of thing that does not arise via natural forces withuot the intervention of an intelligence.

natural laws act according to their laws. That's a restriction. Creative intelligence is the only phenomena we know of that breaks this cause-effect paradox, because it is the only one that possesses the capacity to anticipate, to act according to a future result as the driving force, as opposed to preexisting law. Desire, will, purpose. It's not clear anything could ever exist without it. in short : creation without creativity, is problematic

OK, here I disagree with you. Our intelligence does NOT violate causality in any way. We do not act 'above' the natural laws, but in compliance with them. We are *part* of the functioning of those natural laws. In asking about intelligence, we are simply asking whether one sort of complex natural phenomenon is required to understand a different one.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
That's where the multiverse ultimately shoots itself in the foot. In order to produce our universe by chance, you need an infinite probability machine which can produce anything at all...... except anything that could ever be described as God, which would obviously defeat the entire purpose.
The multiverse theory could explain both the existence of this universe and the existence of every single god mankind has ever believed in and then some. I would have thought that believers in God would love the multiverse theory because they can't even explain why their god would exist in the first place and the multiverse theory would explain it...
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
The multiverse theory could explain both the existence of this universe and the existence of every single god mankind has ever believed in and then some. I would have thought that believers in God would love the multiverse theory because they can't even explain why their god would exist in the first place and the multiverse theory would explain it...

I agree; without the assumed built in no-God mechanism, it would be a free pass to God, accidental universes like ours that would by pure chance ponder their own existence, unicorns, entire galaxies populated by people called Roger, and anything else you can possibly imagine

What makes God singular, is that he is the one explanation not reliant on that infinite probability gimme

He can stand on his own merits
 
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Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
We have positive evidence that processes like mutation are random. Chance is not considered a default position that you fall back on when you have no evidence for anything else. We can use statistics and experiments to positively determine if a process is random or governed by chance.

If you examined the pits on a DVD or the bit streams in an mp3, you would never decipher George Cloony's face or Van Halen's guitar solo. They would appear statistically random.

And that's just with our extremely crude attempts at digital information encoding and compression. DNA, even just the fraction we can grasp, already blows all our efforts out of the water in sophistication. Argue that with both Bill Gates and Dawkins if you disagree.

But it goes further than that. information can be random and specified simultaneously, if a particular 'random' sequence satisfies a fitness function. And even here 'random' is as always a subjective term describing unpredictability. From our perspective the magician pulled our chosen card purely at random
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
Lol.

Actually, the Bible states regarding it's position:

God is "suspending the Earth upon nothing"! -- Job 26:7

If this statement wasn't divinely inspired, how could the writer say something so outrageous (for those times,) yet be so accurate??

Yes. Now that we take this for granted as accurate, it's easy to dismiss how outrageous that assertion might have appeared to some at the time. Like so many truths it transformed from 'religious pseudoscience' to 'of course- it's science!' in the blink of an eye. There is much more in the Bible that still appears bizarre to us without scientific understanding, but that is for us to yet discover. No coincidence the Bible has been the greatest inspiration for scientific endeavor in the history of humanity.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
I agree; without the assumed built in no-God mechanism
Should seismologists assume that Poseidon is making earthquakes, should meteorologists assume that Thor is making thunder, should cosmologists assume that some god made the universe? Of course not. Not in the history of the universe has a theist been shown to be right when he has claimed some god to be responsible for something. You are just one member of the billions strong "some god did it" club irrelevant to science.
 

Thermos aquaticus

Well-Known Member
If you examined the pits on a DVD or the bit streams in an mp3, you would never decipher George Cloony's face or Van Halen's guitar solo. They would appear statistically random.

And that's just with our extremely crude attempts at digital information encoding and compression. DNA, even just the fraction we can grasp, already blows all our efforts out of the water in sophistication. Argue that with both Bill Gates and Dawkins if you disagree.

But it goes further than that. information can be random and specified simultaneously, if a particular 'random' sequence satisfies a fitness function. And even here 'random' is as always a subjective term describing unpredictability. From our perspective the magician pulled our chosen card purely at random

Again, go to the thread where I discuss an experiment which demonstrates that random nature of mutation.

In What Way are Mutations Random?
 

Audie

Veteran Member
I agree; without the assumed built in no-God mechanism, it would be a free pass to God, accidental universes like ours that would by pure chance ponder their own existence, unicorns, entire galaxies populated by people called Roger, and anything else you can possibly imagine

What makes God singular, is that he is the one explanation not reliant on that infinite probability gimme

He can stand on his own merits

What is disappointing about your posts is, you
just say things. No logic, no data, nothing to
back the pronouncements.
 

Cacotopia

Let's go full Trottle
Incompatible IMO, Creationism has assumed the answer without asking the question. Then seeks to find the evidence that supports the answer they have already concluded to be correct.

Confirmation bias and it corrupts the process of seeking truth.
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
And how can you possibly say that when you can't even say why your god would exist in the first place?

The key substantive, objective difference between creative intelligence and spontaneous/naturalistic mechanisms, is the capacity for anticipation of future consequences- and acting according to them, rather than being restrained by what past events demand

Without this, creative capacity is limited, no way around that

Why would you say the castaway existed in the first place? when there is no evidence other than the message he left on the beach?

power of explanation
 
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Thermos aquaticus

Well-Known Member
sticks and stones, I know you can do better Thermos!

Then what physical features would a fossil need in order for you to accept it as evidence for humans and chimps sharing a common ancestor?

What shared genetic marker between humans and chimps would you accept as evidence for their shared ancestry?
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
Then what physical features would a fossil need in order for you to accept it as evidence for humans and chimps sharing a common ancestor?

What shared genetic marker between humans and chimps would you accept as evidence for their shared ancestry?

I do not refute shared ancestry, nor does ID in general. I refute that all advances in biological design were created by random copying errors-

so, I would submit to you, does the scientific evidence
 

Thermos aquaticus

Well-Known Member
I do not refute shared ancestry, nor does ID in general. I refute that all advances in biological design were created by random copying errors-

So what evidence would disprove your position?

so, I would submit to you, does the scientific evidence

I already have a thread dealing with that evidence, and you have yet to really engage the evidence found in the opening post.

The Evidence for Random Mutations
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
So what evidence would disprove your position?

the empirical sort, direct repeatable testing, measurement, predictive ability even

I already have a thread dealing with that evidence, and you have yet to really engage the evidence found in the opening post.

The Evidence for Random Mutations

" if random mutations are responsible for the differences between species then we should see this bias when we compare genomes"

And if the geocentric model of the solar system is correct, we should expect to see the sun cross the sky, it's a fairly flimsy logical argument for anything. But I do take your point though, so allow me to blow it out of the water in more detail :) apologies for the long post in advance but it's kinda interesting stuff


The substance of the observation is that there is an inherent asymmetry in the construction of nucleotides which give them certain individual characteristics, good so far?

And so if these idiosyncrasies are arbitrary, do nothing other than to make certain errors more or less likely for no particular reason- then we would expect to see them distributed in common ancestors- i.e. through the action of mere common descent as opposed to being actively present as the result of a specific intended function yes?

We already discussed the 'inverted retina'- long assumed to be a similar inherited arbitrary design glitch, before we understood it's elegant and sophisticated purpose. And yes, we see the exact same thing here:

The four DNA nucleotides represent a quaternary, or base-4 digital information system, as opposed to a binary or base-2 one.

But what their asymmetry does is to allow each nucleotide in itself to also represent a four-digit binary number. The first three digits represent the three bonding sites that each nucleotide presents to its partner. Each site is either a hydrogen donor or acceptor; a nucleotide offering donor-acceptor-acceptor sites would be represented as 100 and would only bond with an acceptor-donor-donor nucleotide, or 011. The fourth digit is 1 if the nucleotide is a single-ringed pyrimidine type and 0 if it is a double-ringed purine type. Nucleotides readily bond with members of the other type.

The practical upshot of all this malarkey, is that the 4 binary digits of each nucleotide all add up to an even number, making errors less likely overall. i.e. DNA employs what we call parity bit error checking in our digital information systems, only in a far more sophisticated system: as it uses a binary error checking system to process a quaternary string of information.

But the larger point is not simply that this is a brilliantly elegant and efficient design, it's that when you try to happen upon such systems by trial and error, you run out of nanoseconds the universe has existed, elementary particles, googolplexes, to attempt to quantify the number of random tries required to happen upon it by sheer fluke.

Regarding design through random rolls of the die.. it' a nice simple, intuitive assumption to work from, but when the die keeps rolling six, at some point you have to acknowledge that it's loaded, whether we like the implications of that or not
 
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