• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Creation of Universe, Scriptures vs Science

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
As you haven't defined what "a new loving humanity" is, we cannot make any predictions in relation to it.
Also, it is just more question begging.

I personally have offered that a new loving humanity is defined by the Message of Baha’u’llah.

It also renews what is defined by all past Messengers, as in each age all things are made new.

A new humanity is this age requires us to consider all but not limited to the following;
  1. That we embrace the oneness of mankind
  2. That we eliminate all predudices
  3. Set up Universal education for all people
  4. Embrace the Equality of Women
  5. Eliminate extremes of wealth and poverty
  6. Implementation of a world language
  7. Embrace the harmony of science and religion
  8. Peaceful consultation as a means for resolving differences.
That is a start that will make all things new.

Regards Tony
 
Last edited:

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Please provide proof that radio-carbon dating is accurate and trustworthy.

That's what universities, textbooks, popular science books, and the Internet are for. You are responsible for your own education, just as those you ask were responsible for theirs. Unless you're a young person, if you still don't know about radiometric dating, it's because you've never had an interest in it. That doesn't usually change, but if it does, you know where to go. You've already been offered a link on the topic. Did you look at it? (rhetorical question).

This is what I call the creationist two-step. Think Charlie Brown, Lucy, and the football. Over and over, the apologist asks for information that he has no interest in and never looks at. Why? I presume it is to try to represent an interest in scholarship and critical thinking where there is none. Or maybe it's an attempt at an argument from ignorance: if you can't make me understand, you're wrong, therefore God.

Whatever the answer, not once have I seen one of these encounters result in a theist reviewing the material offered and returning to the thread to discuss it. Not once.

No one has shown real flaw in the Bible, only in their opinions/interpretations and how they feel it should be.

Not to you, they haven't, but they have to many others.

And this is why I believe Bible is done with the guidance of God. If it would be just from humans, atheists would not have so many problems to understand it and they could show real errors in it, instead of dishonest interpretations and straw man arguments.

Atheists have no problem understanding the Bible? Why would they? It's simple language. Vague, and ambiguous, yes, meaning that much of it has no definite meaning, but it doesn't take much expertise to recognize that.

It's very easy to demonstrate the errors in the Bible to anybody that doesn't have a vested interest in believing it is error-free. Those wearing a faith-based confirmation bias are the only ones unable to see those errors - internal contradiction, errors in history and science, failed prophecies and other unkept promises, moral and intellectual failures attributed to a god called perfect. I won't trouble you with examples for obvious reasons.

The theory of evolution can't be proven correct with scientific method.

The theory is correct. It meets the legal burden of proof - shown likely to be true beyond a reasonable doubt, and the theory met that standard long ago. The only other logical possibility is a deceptive, superhuman intelligent designer that stocked the earth with findings intended to make it look like evolution had occurred, and that's pretty far-fetched (not a reasonable doubt). Think about it: What if the theory were falsified tomorrow? How would we then understand those mountains of earlier data in the light of the falsifying finding?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
:facepalm: Yet this whole statement says that you have no understanding of the scientific method - otherwise you would be expecting anything to be 'proved' by it.

If you want evidence that the theory of evolution is correct, then we have vast amounts of it that clearly show, way beyond any reasonable doubt, that it's a very, very good match to reality.

Evolution itself, of course, is an observed fact, which the theory of evolution explains.

He may be using a more general definition of "proof". Such as the legal standard of " proof beyond a reasonable doubt ". By that standard evolution has been " proven". In an absolute way it has not been and cannot be proven. But if one accepts gravity then by the same standard one has to accept evolution.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Why? The theory of evolution can't be proven correct with scientific method.

Gravity cannot be proven with the scientific method. It is clear you do not understand how to use it.

But by the legal standard of proof beyond a reasonable doubt it has been proven.

No one has shown real flaw in the Bible, only in their opinions/interpretations and how they feel it should be.

You cannot afford to let yourself see any. In fact to make this claim you would have to state that neither history or science support the Bible since they both can show major flaws in it.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Why do you believe so? If modern humans have existed about 200 thousands of years, why we see signs of major cultural development only from about 20000 years? Why computers were not built 190 000 years ago?
Because until writing was developed knowledge advanced very very slowly. When it comes to knowledge there is a bit of a Catch 22. It takes knowledge to get more knowledge. Our rate of acquiring new knowledge today is vastly higher than it was in the past. Not because people are smarter, but because we can use existing knowledge to help develop new knowledge.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
I wasn’t mining for quotes, I came across a quote in A Brief History of Time which resonated with a point being made by another poster on this forum, so I thought I’d respond with Hawking’s words; he could be rather eloquent, which by no means all scientists are.

I wasn’t trying to support a position, so much as illustrate an observation. Then you jumped all over it like a bloodhound dismembering a fox, and completely missed the point; which, if I remember rightly, was the statistical improbability of the universe expanding in precisely the manner necessary for our corner of it to support intelligent life. That probability being so fantastically slight as to be almost worth discarding; if you’d read the whole quote without your blinkers on, you’d have noticed the reference to the anthropic principle and picked up on that, but you didn’t - you ran straight to Google, exactly as I said you would.
You quoted it in an attempt to add some weight to your argument that there is more to the universe than the physical, material, etc and that being dismissive of the spiritual and philosophical was somehow wilfully ignorant, prejudiced, dogmatic, etc.
I can understand why you did it, given the words Hawking used. You might even have genuinely believed that he "struggled with the metaphysical, embraced agnosticism and deism" or whatever nonsense you tried to claim.
However, if you are now claiming you were trying to use Hawking as support for the idea that a natural explanation for the universe is too improbable to consider, you have failed again. Not sure why you think mentioning the anthropic principle makes a difference - unless you agree that the the "too improbable to be natural" argument is flawed. In which case, why bring it up at all?
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
I had to read it several times to be sure it wasn't a cleverly crafted windup I'd fallen for. I have to say I'm still not entirely sure, that I haven't been duped by a master of irony.
Poe's Law - without a clear indicator of the author's intent, every parody of extreme views can be mistaken by some readers for a sincere expression of the views being parodied.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Why do you believe so? If modern humans have existed about 200 thousands of years, why we see signs of major cultural development only from about 20000 years? Why computers were not built 190 000 years ago?
My god, yes!
And I've never seen a monkey evolve into a human either (although I have seen some wearing human clothes and doing human jobs, so maybe half way).
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
How can anyone take Dawkins seriously?
While he can sometimes be somewhat controversial and outspoken on religion, he is a highly qualified are globally respected evolutionary biologist. Why wouldn't you take him seriously on scientific matters? (Well, yes. I know why you don't. Because his field of expertise shows your belief to be mere ancient superstition, and you have absolutely no idea about how science works)

Many people can use a car without understanding deeply why and how it works.
Exactly. But they don't believe it is magic. They accept the statements of mechanics and engineers.
When your car breaks down, do you call a mechanic or a priest?

Same can be in many matters. However, if we think scientific fact is only something that can be demonstrated repeatedly, I have no problem with that. Most practical things are like that. For example computers, there is facts that can be tested and repeated and they work. And they actually work even if person doesn't understand deeply why they work. So, maybe it is wrong to say "science" is wrong, if it means just a method to examine world. Usually "science" means also the opinions of people that can be wrong, especially when they are claims that are not testable and not proven by anything. If "science" means only the method and what has been observed, it is never wrong, because it would only tell what was observed by some way. It would be nice, if it would be only so.
So you don't have a problem with everything that science has led to, all the products, advancements and progress. The things you use and accept every day. It is only when the products of science refute your religious belief that science is suddenly untrustworthy - although you can't show why.
Have a think about that. Don't you see a problem there, an inconsistency?
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Why do we blame God for our choices?
I blame god for what he does. Nothing else.

Practice makes perfect, if we want another to do that training for us, how does that help our own ability?
I notice that you didn't bother to respond to the actual questions I raised regarding your claims. Any chance of that happening, rather than just more meaningless platitudes?
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Because until writing was developed knowledge advanced very very slowly. When it comes to knowledge there is a bit of a Catch 22. It takes knowledge to get more knowledge. Our rate of acquiring new knowledge today is vastly higher than it was in the past. Not because people are smarter, but because we can use existing knowledge to help develop new knowledge.
There is also the major effect of a society productive enough to allow more people the time and resources to just think and experiment on the abstract and hypothetical rather than just the immediately necessary.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
I personally have offered that a new loving humanity is defined by the Message of Baha’u’llah.

It also renews what is defined by all past Messengers, as in each age all things are made new.

A new humanity is this age requires us to consider all but not limited to the following;
  1. That we embrace the oneness of mankind
  2. That we eliminate all predudices
  3. Set up Universal education for all people
  4. Embrace the Equality of Women
  5. Eliminate extremes of wealth and poverty
  6. Implementation of a world language
  7. Embrace the harmony of science and religion
  8. Peaceful consultation as a means for resolving differences.
That is a start that will make all things new.

Regards Tony
Most of that is nothing new and does not require any god of any kind. Ask a socialist or humanist.
6 & 7 are impractical.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Why do we blame God for our choices?

Child cancer, instant cot deaths, tsunamis, diseases like malaria. predation, pestilence, etc etc, last time I looked these were not human choices. Unimaginable suffering, and not just for human animals. If that was designed and created by a deity, then it would be one sick sadistic little puppy.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Science in our past reacted earth and the atmosphere into conversions by technology cause twice before.

Proved they don't know what they claim.

Lie.

If they say time...gases alight burning voiding burning in vacuum. Human aware time meaning our heavens.

Big bang time. Blasting burning moment.

Life is instant by light. Said science.

We live not in any burning blasting voiding water mass moment. We live inside a gas timed natural heavens voiding.

Water by mass oxygenated.

Life in natural time status in life.

Big bang blast never owned life.

What lying means.

Natural human is the real human. Living supported by natural in all needs.

Science was only ever satanisms and lies.

So humans categorically had to teach.

O a stone planet theist satanist I name as a God deity. Reverence it's presence. By population one consensus.

A entity deity that created its owned heavens in its fixed space place.

Reverence it.

No says theism Satanism. I will not.

Reason for teaching God was planet earth accept it or else as a teaching group status.

Science says religious men threatened me. Not fair he says.

Yes they surely prove they needed to.
 

Firelight

Inactive member
That's what universities, textbooks, popular science books, and the Internet are for. You are responsible for your own education, just as those you ask were responsible for theirs. Unless you're a young person, if you still don't know about radiometric dating, it's because you've never had an interest in it. That doesn't usually change, but if it does, you know where to go. You've already been offered a link on the topic. Did you look at it? (rhetorical question).

This is what I call the creationist two-step. Think Charlie Brown, Lucy, and the football. Over and over, the apologist asks for information that he has no interest in and never looks at. Why? I presume it is to try to represent an interest in scholarship and critical thinking where there is none. Or maybe it's an attempt at an argument from ignorance: if you can't make me understand, you're wrong, therefore God.

Whatever the answer, not once have I seen one of these encounters result in a theist reviewing the material offered and returning to the thread to discuss it. Not once.

I’ve never found proof of its accuracy. What’s to discuss? The lack of proof?

Aupmanyav, made the statement that I responded to. He is wise enough to respond in return that science has its limitations. He isn’t trying to force the thought that science is infallible.

I’m not here to argue with anyone who gets huffy when their precious science theories are challenged. Are you weak enough that you will fall apart when the theory of evolution crumbles? Therefore, you feel threatened when it’s challenged in any way?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
That wasn't the question.

The question was, in your view, how should science respond to supernatural claims?

See, science does not respond to any supernatural claims. If you ask this question a 100 times, the answer will be the same.

Try and understand. Yet I am confident you know this already.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
See, science does not respond to any supernatural claims. If you ask this question a 100 times, the answer will be the same.

Try and understand. Yet I am confident you know this already.
You weren't quite clear on the important part of what you've said above: WHY science doesn't respond to supernatural claims ─ namely that on investigation there are found to be none.

Nor (as I mentioned previously) is any coherent conceptual background for real gods or real magic to be found.

The question has been asked many many more times than 100, and the answer has always the same.

Apart from the conceptual problem that I mention above, then, there is available to science a conclusion from empiricism and induction on the subject.

Which of course you could refute at any time by a satisfactory demonstration of a real god ─ if only there were a coherent definition of a real god, such that we could determine whether any real suspect were God or not.
 
Top