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Creation of Universe, Scriptures vs Science

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Why it took so long to develop writing?
Ask an expert in the filed. First villages would have to be established and exist long enough for trade of various sorts to begin since writing was originally most likely for that purpose. Simply keeping track of transactions.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
If it is an observed fact, what observation makes it a fact? Evolution theory really is nothing more than modernized mother earth cult.
There is no way that you can be educated in a word or two. But the fact is that if one denies evolution then one is a science denier. If you want to tag me in one of the evolution threads I will do my best to hep you to learn. Denying evolution is just as bad as denying gravity since we have more scientific evidence for evolution than we have for gravity.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Please show one example?
For history there is the difference between Luke's and Matthew's nativity myths. They are both datable within limits based upon claims in their stories. Luke specifically mentions the Census of Quirinius, the first Roman census of Judea. And Matthew mentions that Herod was still king. That is at least a ten year difference.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
I have not problem in believing things that can be proven, shown to be true. For example, we can test that things fall certain way, therefore it is ok to me. I have difficulties to believe claims that can't be proven, that are just opinions of people who are speaking in the name of science.

Either you're confusing science with scientists, or I'm not sure what you mean. First of all science doesn't prove things, no scientific fact is ringfenced from constant scrutiny, that's not how science works. Science gathers and tests evidence, through the scientific method, all ideas must be falsifiable, and must remain tentative and open to revision, up to and including the rotundity of the earth, in the light of ne evidence.

Can you give some examples of what mean by "claims that can't be proven, that are just opinions of people who are speaking in the name of science."?
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
There is no way that you can be educated in a word or two. But the fact is that if one denies evolution then one is a science denier. If you want to tag me in one of the evolution threads I will do my best to hep you to learn. Denying evolution is just as bad as denying gravity since we have more scientific evidence for evolution than we have for gravity.

Gravity is a scientific theory, as of course is Einstein's theory of relativity, I'm always stunned when creationists think scientific theories are just some sort of hunch or guess that might be wrong. However I am always a little but dubious as they seem only to focus on scientific facts that contradict part of their religious beliefs.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I think you should set out your definition of science so that I can understand what you've posted.

Or was I right after all ─ that you don't know?

If you really want to create a caricature of ignorance in others and enjoy your life for a little while its alright with me.

But again, as I said already, I dont define science. I am not qualified to define science. Philosophers of science have already done it. As usual, as I have seen, as the last say you as others can do some ad hominem to satisfy yourself.

Go ahead. ;)
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If you really want to create a caricature of ignorance in others and enjoy your life for a little while its alright with me.

But again, as I said already, I dont define science. I am not qualified to define science. Philosophers of science have already done it. As usual, as I have seen, as the last say you as others can do some ad hominem to satisfy yourself.

Go ahead. ;)
*Chuckle*

Then I was right ─ when you say 'science', you don't know what you're talking about.

Goodness me!
 

Firelight

Inactive member
***MOD EDIT***

Of course it does. The problem you have is that you use the idea that there are gaps in our knowledge to reject some things that are well established, while being happy to accept other scientific knowledge when it suits you. This selective hypocrisy betrays your true motives.

Straw man. No one claims that science is infallible. However, that doesn't mean that you can decide which bits are right or wrong. That is decided by the evidence.

There fixed that for ya!

You have literally nothing tangible to support your position, merely belief that was almost certainly indoctrinated from infancy by other who were similarly indoctrinated. Evolution is a demonstrable and observable fact and the Theory of Evolution is an explanation for it that has mountains of independently confirmed evidence from a variety of disciplines. The fact that some people are incapable or unwilling to understand this evidence does not make it go away.


“Creationists?” Are you assuming I’m a “creationist?” Talk about a straw man argument. All your words are meaningless. In your mind and in your comments you are posing and participating in your own debate against your own chosen opponent, who you are apparently pretending is me. Have a nice day!
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Firelight

Inactive member
You wrote, "Please provide proof that radio-carbon dating is accurate and trustworthy." I told you that your education is your own responsibility. I noted that another poster had given you a link on the subject, and that I didn't expect you to look at it. You fail to recognize that your unawareness in this area, radiodating, is by design, and that you have no interest in changing that. If you had, you would have at least looked at the link and hopefully, returned to the thread with any questions you might have, and to summarize what you learned.



Straw man. Nobody is. I'm a strong believer in empiricism in the lab and in daily life (we can call these formal and informal science, as they attempt to do the same thing - collect data and generate inductions that allow predicting future outcomes), but I actually never even endorsed it in the post you are responding to, much less call it infallible.



Huffy?

You didn't challenge any theory or even any idea. You asked to be taught radiometric dating by RF posters, and I explained not only was your education your responsibility, but that based on experience with apologists asking for information (there's that informal science of daily life), I have concluded that they're never really interested. Perhaps you might have decided to prove me wrong just this one time by reading the link and sharing what you learned. Instead, you got huffy yourself (projection much?) and turned it from a discussion of ideas to what you disapprove of in me.



You haven't challenged the theory of evolution. You requested information that you were never interested in. It's interesting that you see that as a challenge to evolution. I have also long said that these questions about science aren't really requests for information, but declarative statements in the form of a question, like "What's the use?" (rhetorical questions) as part of an implied ignorantiam argument that is basically, "If you can't prove something to me to my satisfaction - and I won't cooperate with you even if you try - then your science is wrong, ergo God." It's further evidence that your request wasn't sincere as I suggested.

You probably didn't like my calling this the apologists' two-step, but then you went and did it, and got huffy when you were called on it. It's an extremely common problem in these discussions. One has to learn to focus on making reasoned arguments and not injecting emotion into the process. It's an acquired skill found in those familiar with courtrooms, boardrooms, congressional hearings, and academic environments. Lose your cool and lose your argument, and be rebuked (if not sanctioned).

When that fighting culture meets the other one, there will be one side getting emotional and threatening to walk out, or begin flinging derogatory personal opinions. Just look at those court TV shows, and compare the demeanor of the judge to the typical angry defendant. It resembles these discussions between skeptics and apologists - one of us posting as I have, and one posting as you have. Those are the two cultures to which I refer.

I have a name for that as well - the three stages of apologist decompensation. It begins with some incoherent or previously refuted "proof of God" or some challenge to science as you offered. This is rebutted, leading to the "You can't prove I'm wrong. That's just your opinion." When this is rebutted, the emotional food fight begins. Sometimes, as in this case, the second step is skipped entirely.

You probably don't like reading that either, but it is an observation that I find maps reality well, and is thus a useful idea. I'm using it now. If you choose to respond, practice rebutting what is actually said to you (you haven't done that yet with me) without injecting emotion. Be Spock.

Incidentally, the theory of evolution is so robustly evidenced that it can be called proven beyond a reasonable doubt, the legal use of the word. Have you thought about the implications were the theory falsified tomorrow? The existing evidence doesn't go away. It just needs to be reinterpreted in the light of falsifying find.

What could that interpretation possibly be apart from a deceptive intelligent designer or race of designers existing that went to great pains to make it appear as if evolution had occurred, by planting the geological column, for example, with progressively less modern looking forms at deeper strata with radioisotopes (you can read about these on the Internet, including the link already provided you) carefully placed in the fossil remains in ratios such that deeper forms appear older. Giving man that fused chromosome was a nice touch. Very convincing, but if evolution were falsified, just another deception.

What's interesting to me here is the effort Christian creationists make to overturn evolution, never realizing that even if they are successful and correct about intelligent design, their god is already ruled out by this deception. The Christian god is said to want to be known, understood, believed, loved, obeyed, and worshiped. The intelligent designer can't be that god if it is a trickster god. Nor need it/they be gods at all.

I don’t have enough interest to read your long essay response. What I have read is babble to me. You talk about apologists, I’m not familiar with apologists. In another paragraph, it appears you are psycho-analyzing, for which there is no purpose. I’ve read the link and it has to do with a creationist/evolutionist argument. I don’t call myself a creationist and I am not familiar with an ongoing argument of creationism versus evolution. The link is irrelevant to me and doesn’t provide the answers I’m looking for. There is no reason to discuss it. Have a nice day.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
“Creationists?” Are you assuming I’m a “creationist?” Talk about a straw man argument. All your words are meaningless. In your mind and in your comments you are posing and participating in your own debate against your own chosen opponent, who you are apparently pretending is me. Have a nice day!
Dude! You Underneath your user name it says "Not An Ape" Of course that would mean that you have to be claiming to be a penguin or a giraffe. Since if you are not an ape you could not be a person. And only creationists tend to make the error of denying the fact that they are apes.
 

Firelight

Inactive member
Just out of curiosity, is it your conception that scientific dating is flawed? Or is it just simple possibility of error?

It is not really scientific to say dating is spot on, but please be kind enough to state what kind of error can there be? Can there be billions of years in error?

I am only trying to understand your point so dont get offended. I am no scientist so I could of course be in error.

In radiometric dating, there are some problems. In dating, half lives are said to have got shortened in the past. Thats true. But how much is the difference? 20%?? We are not sure. What is assured is that it simply cannot get so much accelerated that darting is so much different in billions of years. Tree ring annual calculations can be not exactly annual but its a good yardstick. How much difference can it make?

Please try to elaborate if you have time.


I think scientific dating is unreliable for the most part. I do think the dating itself is flawed or at the very least, extremely limited. It can also contain errors. I can somewhat accept carbon dating if it’s results measure an age within 3000 to 5000 years ago, and if there is other evidence to back it up. I think it should never be relied on as the only evidence to prove something.

Radio-carbon dating relies on the amount of carbon that is in the atmosphere and the organism at the time the organism was living. I don’t think scientists should assume they know how much carbon existed in the atmosphere, or in organisms, tens of thousands of years ago, let alone millions or billions of years ago. No one was around to test the atmosphere or make records.

I’m no expert in physics, chemistry, or math. However, I have studied enough science to know it is continuously changing due to new discoveries, new methods, and research. Old theories are replaced with new ones. Also, I know that not all scientists agree with each other, fortunately. I think scientific dating has a long way to go in its development before it can be relied on very much. But, scientists will continue to rely on what they have at the time in order to continue their studies and theories.

Can tree rings be counted up to millions of years, or even tens of thousands of years?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I think scientific dating is unreliable for the most part. I do think the dating itself is flawed or at the very least, extremely limited. It can also contain errors. I can somewhat accept carbon dating if it’s results measure an age within 3000 to 5000 years ago, and if there is other evidence to back it up. I think it should never be relied on as the only evidence to prove something.

Radio-carbon dating relies on the amount of carbon that is in the atmosphere and the organism at the time the organism was living. I don’t think scientists should assume they know how much carbon existed in the atmosphere, or in organisms, tens of thousands of years ago, let alone millions or billions of years ago. No one was around to test the atmosphere or make records.

I’m no expert in physics, chemistry, or math. However, I have studied enough science to know it is continuously changing due to new discoveries, new methods, and research. Old theories are replaced with new ones. Also, I know that not all scientists agree with each other, fortunately. I think scientific dating has a long way to go in its development before it can be relied on very much. But, scientists will continue to rely on what they have at the time in order to continue their studies and theories.

Can tree rings be counted up to millions of years, or even tens of thousands of years?

Too bad that you only have your religious fears to guide you. C14 dating has been very well calibrated by using tree rings. With tree rings we can get samples going back over 20,000 years. Scientists are not just making assumptions. That is what creationists do when they try to debunk science. Since they have no clue they make the error of assuming that scientist have no clue either.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I think scientific dating is unreliable for the most part. I do think the dating itself is flawed or at the very least, extremely limited. It can also contain errors. I can somewhat accept carbon dating if it’s results measure an age within 3000 to 5000 years ago, and if there is other evidence to back it up. I think it should never be relied on as the only evidence to prove something.

Sorry but you are just making some arbitrary statement for your liking.

Thanks.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
The fix isn't hard, you know ─ just some homework.

Then we can address the nature of the relationship of science to the supernatural. Not least in the light of the problems I mentioned earlier.

Nah. Its alright. Id rather have a cup of tea with a decent person. See, there are truthful people in this world. Have a good day.
 
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