KWED
Scratching head, scratching knee
Are you really asking for examples of where science isn't based in the laws of physics, etc?
The irony of you going on about indoctrinated ideological propaganda is exquisite.
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Creation of Universe, Scriptures vs Science
- Thread starter Aupmanyav
- Start date
The irony of you going on about indoctrinated ideological propaganda is exquisite.
Sheldon
Veteran Member
No sorry, it doesn't appear to have any relevance to the post of mine you've responded to, which was about biblical errancy contrasting to the perception many christians have of it.
Suave
Simulated character
Fair enough! Please note, at a more appropriate time, I may ask for your opinion of there being computer code in string theory.
KWED
Scratching head, scratching knee
So what, exactly, is the "biased and misleading information intended to promote a particular idea" that atheism spreads?
Don't worry. I'll understand if you haven't thought it through.
KWED
Scratching head, scratching knee
Oh yes, I'd forgotten that you attempt to dismiss anything you struggle to respond to as "irrelevant".
KWED
Scratching head, scratching knee
Suave
Simulated character
Please allow me to posit there being the numeric based message of 37 embedded in our genetic code possibly linked with the gematria value of 37 in Genesis 1:1. This mathematically demonstrating the inerrancy of the Biblical scripture's first verse.
KWED
Scratching head, scratching knee
It is actually Islam that takes this claim to the extreme. The Quran was literally dictated to Muhammad, via the angel Jibril, by Allah. Muslims claim that the words in the Quran are the actual, identical words of Allah as received by Muhammad, and it is impossible for them to ever have been changed or altered in any way.
KWED
Scratching head, scratching knee
You speak about atheism without being an atheist. You speak about science without understanding it.
Physician, heal thyself!
Sheldon
Veteran Member
To be honest I think KWED has covered this, we are pattern seeking animals, pointing out something has a complex pattern in it that we also perceive elsewhere, isn't compelling evidence they were deliberately placed there, let alone by a sentient being.
Complexity does not denote design.
Suave
Simulated character
Quran and Space time, Hyperspace and Wormholes
"A blogger on a CNN Article asked that I share an example of how the Quran is continually showing us miracles. I chose this topic that is not widely talked about to share with him/her. I hope this is informative and interesting to you.
Due to your legitimate curiosity, I will share with you something that is not talked about as much nowadays but is worth contemplating upon. Have you heard of Spacetime? Have you heard of Hyperspace (Multiple Universes)? Have you heard of wormholes?
From scientific research (Thanks ALLAH for the advancement we have in humanity nowadays), it is said that Spacetime is CURVED (yes right, spacetime is CURVED). This fact only became known recently after the explorations that humanity learned about in the 20th century.
Also, Hyperspace? It is now scientifically proven that hyperspace is a reality! There are actually mathematical equations that show that universes of up to 11 dimensions do EXIST! We, humans, live in a 4 dimensional universe, 3 in space and time. Wormholes being the openings that could be a shortcut to go from one universe to another!
Now, how is this relevant to the Quran and its continuous miracles? Let me take you with you in a journey called the Quran Journey (all because of your legitimate curiosity)..
Every time the Quran talks about space and travel in space, It uses the word (Arooj). The choice of this word is not random. A single word is a miracle. The word in Arabic is used among Badwins to signify a curved pathway (for someone to go from point A to point B passing through point C, it is said that he is gone through Arooj). For the longest time, Muslims would literally translate the meaning of the Quran when seeing this word as traveled or ascended. It is not until the discoveries in the 20th century that the choice of this word became APPARENT.
He knows what penetrates into the earth and what emerges from it and what descends from the heaven and what <b>ascends</b> therein. And He is the Merciful, the Forgiving. (34:2)
The word used in the above verse is يَعْرُجُ
It is He who created the heavens and earth in six days and then established Himself above the Throne. He knows what penetrates into the earth and what emerges from it and what descends from the heaven and what <b>ascends</b> therein; and He is with you wherever you are. And Allah, of what you do, is Seeing. (57:4)
The word used in the above verse is also يَعْرُجُ
Moving to the second point in regards to hyperspace and wormholes, I would like to share with you one verse in the Quran that tackles but the above concept of curved spacetime and also wormholes. What science discovered is that it would take us huge amount of energies to make a dent into another universe (if we collect all the resources of this world to get through this wormhole today, we wouldn’t be able to). Does that mean that humanity wouldn’t be able to get through? Not at all. Perhaps one day we will be able to get through this (ALLAH Knows best). A scientist once said talking about other universes that if we were to make it to another universe, we will go MAD because that is a dimension beyond our realizations and dimensions. Little did he know that the Quran spoke about this 1400 years ago. Read with me the following!
And [even] if We opened to them a gate from the heaven and they continued therein to <b>ascend</b>, (14) They would say, “Our eyes have only been dazzled. Rather, we are a people affected by magic.” (15:15)
The word used in the above verse is also يَعْرُجُونَ (plural of يَعْرُجُ). Indeed, we would say our eyes are dazzled because we will be in a dimension above our dimension and creation above our realization.. This is the Quran my dear friend. I talked about this to give an idea of what this means through our limited realization. Here is an excerpt from an earlier post.
If you have read my earlier posts, you would understand that our realization of God is limited to our 4 dimensional universe. That is, we only comprehend God with our brains that are limited to this universe. Science tells us that there are universes as many as up to 11 dimensions (mathematically at least). We live in a 4th dimensional universe. Can you imagine what it would be like to be in a 5th dimensional universe? Mad, isn’t it? What is that 5th dimension? We fail to even know that let alone knowing the 11th dimension. Now, since we fail miserably to understand and comprehend these realities, our understanding of the Creator is yet very limited. We don’t encompass ALLAH (God) for he is the Greater of all. However, His Being is veiled from us through his attributes (all-Hearing, All-knowing, etc) but those attributes in themselves are only intellectual realizations for many of us (they get to actual understanding for some) and they are also veiled from us through the actions of God. The actions that we see in our universe..
You might ask, how does the Quran for example link you to God? The answer is, God uses a 4 dimensional language to speak to 4 dimensional creatures. The revelation came to fit and suit our actual level of comprehension and understanding. Hope this helps! The above explanation could be used to also add Angles as being creatures of higher dimension, a dimension that is not visible to us
We can observe height, depth and so on (3 dimensions and 1 in time). You can have an idea what a 3 dimensional (2 in space and 1 in time perhaps) creature would be compared to you. A creature that doesn’t experience depth or height. Are you similar to that creature (even though you are not the one who created that creature? Of course not! What do you think of the CREATOR of both creatures (the 4 dimensional and the 3 dimensional now)? Is he in any way the same as those creatures? Of COURSE NOT! If this 3 dimensional creature is brought to our UNIVERSE, what would he SEE? A cross sectional view of everything around. It is safe to say that he WOULD go MAD because he can’t comprehend anything around.. This is one of the miracles of the Quran to tell us about those realities that we became familiar with just 100 years ago (Quran was revealed 1400 years ago)."
Quran and Space time, Hyperspace and Wormholes
KWED
Scratching head, scratching knee
Why not?
It always amuses me when religionists insist that sceptics study scripture in depth before being able to pass comment, but believers need only have a passing acquaintance with a few passages and their comments are met with "Praise be!" and "Mashallah!"
It's the same with "Buh Context!"
Sceptics can only quote verses if they include whole chapters and write essays explain context, etc - yet it is fine for believers to post single verses devoid of any context to illustrate a point.
This painful lack of self-awareness is present in pretty much every aspect of religious belief and apologetics.
And you, of course, will avoid responding. As you do with all difficult points and questions. It must be strange to hold beliefs so firmly, yet be so completely unable to defend or justify them. What was it you were saying about "indoctrination and propaganda"?
Suave
Simulated character
I dunno, the odds of the mathematical patterns found in the Wow signal of the terrestrial genetic code occurring by natural process is 1 in 10 trillion!
KWED
Scratching head, scratching knee
Does a person have to have studied the Quran to be able to state that Muslims generally consider the Quran to be the literal, revealed word of Allah?
Clearly not. One merely needs to have been made aware of that particular nugget of information.
Do you consider the fact that hundreds of millions of Muslims have never even read the Quran, let alone studied it, mean that they cannot comment on Islam?
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
No, it is only an indication of cherry picking and reinterpretation. Nothing more.
Are you aware that similar "Bible Code" arguments were laid to rest a long time ago?
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Citation needed. I doubt if you can find a reliable source that supports you.
ratiocinator
Lightly seared on the reality grill.
To the extent 'hyperspace' has any real scientific meaning, "multiple universes" isn't it. It's more a term from science fiction.
Quite apart from nothing being "scientifically proven" (science doesn't do proof), multiple universes are just conjectures.
The proposal I assume assume this is trying to refer to is from string theory and it would mean that our universe has 11 dimensions, most of which are 'curled up' so we don't perceive them.
Except if the above is true. This kind of misunderstanding is not a good place to start from and the rest that tries to relate any of it to the Quran is just comical.
Sheldon
Veteran Member
They already found them you said? So what difference do the odds make if it happened already? Or is this going to be a claim that adding a vastly complex unevidenced deity using magic that has no explanatory powers at all, somehow lowers the odds of why something is there? Only that has always seemed a dubious premise at best to me, it seems to fall foul of Occam's razor.
Here is yet another example of a theist trying to disqualify the dissenting opinion of an atheist by imposing some arbitrary and irrelevant standard. @Sheldon was commenting about the belief in scriptural inerrancy. Study? Not necessary. Just read the text until you find an error. QED.
I've been collecting these for a few years now, and have added your contribution to the bottom of my list, number [61]. I began it by listing general categories of attempted disqualification, then, starting with item [10], switched to just copying these comments verbatim. Yours might be the first one from a Muslim.
[1] You took the scripture out of context.
[2] You don't understand literary criticism
[3] It's an allegory, not literal.
[4] It's literal, not an allegory.
[5] Scripture is only transparent to those with a child's perspective
[6] Scripture is only transparent to biblical scholars
[7] You are not filled with the Holy Spirit
[8] That's the mystery of it all. "God works in mysterious ways"
[9] Man's mind is too puny to grasp the immensity of God's truth and justice.
[10] You were obviously never a "true christian"
[11] You don't have enough faith. You have to believe to understand.
[12] You can't criticize the bible because you don't believe or understand it.
[13] Why do we think we can pretend to know God?
[14] Scripture always interprets scripture
[15] Ever heard of biblical hermeneutics?
[16] You are not TRULY with truth and sincerity seeking God.
[17] You have to know how to translate Hebrew and Greek
[18] You are using a completely unsupportable transliteration of Scripture
[19] You have clearly not studied the ancient peoples who wrote those things or you would not come up with the conclusions you have.
[20] Sorry, but attending a church for a few years doesn't make you any sort of Biblical expert.
[21] Stop scripture mining.
[22] You have to be familiar with the technical terminologies in the bible before you can comprehend it.
[23] Even Satan can quote scripture.
[24] In any other field, like medicine, engineering, technology, electronics, software, computer, unless you have qualifications and experience, you are not allowed to open you mouth.
[25] You have no reference in the knowledge of God to know our experience in Christ Jesus. The Word has to be embedded in one's heart, and that can come from God only.
[26] You're asking me to give you a four year bible study course on Topix?
[27] Don't fall in the trap of being a one verse wonder. You need to understand the passage and true meaning of the verse.
[28] You're only making a fool out of yourself trying to argue over something that you are not Blessed to understand.
[29] When you read scripture, one has to discern WHO that particular verse was written to..The believer or the Non believer. If we cant understand that then YES, the bible would seem to be very contradicting.
[30] A doctor, lawyer, scientist, or engineer are so used to reading their professional documentation literally, that metaphor, allegory, parables, hyperbole, and analogies are like another language unto themselves.
[31] You are not bright or educated enough to spew against Bible
[32] I would question the person who thinks that you understand even one page of any Bible. Without first learning the language how could you.
[33] Your arguments are so full of errors and misconceptions I don't even wanna touch it.
[34] You and others like you can't understand because you're not permitted to unless/until you repent and confess Christ as LORD.
[35] The power of the gospel is designed to frustrate the wisdom of the wise.
[36] It's so damn cute when atheists reach for their Bible to make their point. I love it!
[37] Your biased interpretation of the text is not the absolute interpretation that is required.
[38] It requires theological understanding. You don't have that. I do.
[39] We cannot and must not apply modern concepts to ancient cultures. It causes failure to understand.
[40] It takes humility to understand the Bible
[41] You get your biblical passages from Atheist web sites.
[42] A copy/paste from Biblehub does not make one a biblical expert.
[43] Don't bother quoting Scripture to me, atheist. You don't even know what you're doing.
[44] Your lack of belief in God coupled with your lack of experience with God means you are not qualified to comment on God.
[45] He believes he is qualified on the basis that he has been inside a church and picked up a bible.
[46] The word of God can not be understood no matter how many times it is read without the help of the Holy Spirit.
[47] Out of context arguments are presented by narrow minds that refuse to take in the bigger perspectives and the greater all encompassing truths.
[48] You're cherry picking scripture.
[49] You can't just read the Bible to understand it, you need to study the scriptures.
[50] You don't know what Jesus was talking about. Typical atheist.
[51] If you are going to quote Scripture for support for your claims then you need to tell me what the context is.
[52] Your ignorance of the Bible, its laws and customs and what applies to Christians today is embarrassing. You should be red faced for making this comment in public.
[53] You have no biblical expertise, your word on the Bible is strictly a layman's opinion.
[54] You want to convince me you have knowledge of the Bible. 1) Provide 5 examples of slave liberation in the Old Testament. 2) King Saul was merciful to the merciless and subsequently merciless to the merciful. Explain.
[55] You are a heretic with little if any understanding of Scripture. If you did study the Bible it was in a Laurel and Hardy College in Tijuana
[56] Like I say there are no errors in the bible only skeptics that can't read and comprehend.
[57] You're a Biblical ignoramus.
[58] You need Jehovah’s approval to understand His word.
[59] Please don't say, 'how can I trust it? The Bible contradicts itself'. That will only be evidence to me that you don't understand what it's ancient writers meant, and don't want to.
[60] I guess the issue here is, one of us has studied the original languages of the Bible, and has a degree in biblical studies and religion.
[61] If you are to make a case about how theists view scripture and deem it good or bad or neutral, you have to have studied it.
[2] You don't understand literary criticism
[3] It's an allegory, not literal.
[4] It's literal, not an allegory.
[5] Scripture is only transparent to those with a child's perspective
[6] Scripture is only transparent to biblical scholars
[7] You are not filled with the Holy Spirit
[8] That's the mystery of it all. "God works in mysterious ways"
[9] Man's mind is too puny to grasp the immensity of God's truth and justice.
[10] You were obviously never a "true christian"
[11] You don't have enough faith. You have to believe to understand.
[12] You can't criticize the bible because you don't believe or understand it.
[13] Why do we think we can pretend to know God?
[14] Scripture always interprets scripture
[15] Ever heard of biblical hermeneutics?
[16] You are not TRULY with truth and sincerity seeking God.
[17] You have to know how to translate Hebrew and Greek
[18] You are using a completely unsupportable transliteration of Scripture
[19] You have clearly not studied the ancient peoples who wrote those things or you would not come up with the conclusions you have.
[20] Sorry, but attending a church for a few years doesn't make you any sort of Biblical expert.
[21] Stop scripture mining.
[22] You have to be familiar with the technical terminologies in the bible before you can comprehend it.
[23] Even Satan can quote scripture.
[24] In any other field, like medicine, engineering, technology, electronics, software, computer, unless you have qualifications and experience, you are not allowed to open you mouth.
[25] You have no reference in the knowledge of God to know our experience in Christ Jesus. The Word has to be embedded in one's heart, and that can come from God only.
[26] You're asking me to give you a four year bible study course on Topix?
[27] Don't fall in the trap of being a one verse wonder. You need to understand the passage and true meaning of the verse.
[28] You're only making a fool out of yourself trying to argue over something that you are not Blessed to understand.
[29] When you read scripture, one has to discern WHO that particular verse was written to..The believer or the Non believer. If we cant understand that then YES, the bible would seem to be very contradicting.
[30] A doctor, lawyer, scientist, or engineer are so used to reading their professional documentation literally, that metaphor, allegory, parables, hyperbole, and analogies are like another language unto themselves.
[31] You are not bright or educated enough to spew against Bible
[32] I would question the person who thinks that you understand even one page of any Bible. Without first learning the language how could you.
[33] Your arguments are so full of errors and misconceptions I don't even wanna touch it.
[34] You and others like you can't understand because you're not permitted to unless/until you repent and confess Christ as LORD.
[35] The power of the gospel is designed to frustrate the wisdom of the wise.
[36] It's so damn cute when atheists reach for their Bible to make their point. I love it!
[37] Your biased interpretation of the text is not the absolute interpretation that is required.
[38] It requires theological understanding. You don't have that. I do.
[39] We cannot and must not apply modern concepts to ancient cultures. It causes failure to understand.
[40] It takes humility to understand the Bible
[41] You get your biblical passages from Atheist web sites.
[42] A copy/paste from Biblehub does not make one a biblical expert.
[43] Don't bother quoting Scripture to me, atheist. You don't even know what you're doing.
[44] Your lack of belief in God coupled with your lack of experience with God means you are not qualified to comment on God.
[45] He believes he is qualified on the basis that he has been inside a church and picked up a bible.
[46] The word of God can not be understood no matter how many times it is read without the help of the Holy Spirit.
[47] Out of context arguments are presented by narrow minds that refuse to take in the bigger perspectives and the greater all encompassing truths.
[48] You're cherry picking scripture.
[49] You can't just read the Bible to understand it, you need to study the scriptures.
[50] You don't know what Jesus was talking about. Typical atheist.
[51] If you are going to quote Scripture for support for your claims then you need to tell me what the context is.
[52] Your ignorance of the Bible, its laws and customs and what applies to Christians today is embarrassing. You should be red faced for making this comment in public.
[53] You have no biblical expertise, your word on the Bible is strictly a layman's opinion.
[54] You want to convince me you have knowledge of the Bible. 1) Provide 5 examples of slave liberation in the Old Testament. 2) King Saul was merciful to the merciless and subsequently merciless to the merciful. Explain.
[55] You are a heretic with little if any understanding of Scripture. If you did study the Bible it was in a Laurel and Hardy College in Tijuana
[56] Like I say there are no errors in the bible only skeptics that can't read and comprehend.
[57] You're a Biblical ignoramus.
[58] You need Jehovah’s approval to understand His word.
[59] Please don't say, 'how can I trust it? The Bible contradicts itself'. That will only be evidence to me that you don't understand what it's ancient writers meant, and don't want to.
[60] I guess the issue here is, one of us has studied the original languages of the Bible, and has a degree in biblical studies and religion.
[61] If you are to make a case about how theists view scripture and deem it good or bad or neutral, you have to have studied it.
And here's another common tactic. I've seen this from you at least twice before. Nobody's defending anybody in this thread. They're all just contradicting you in the same way.
You'll post whatever you hope diminishes the blowback you receive for your bare claims and your debating etiquette - except a logical defense of your position or a rebuttal to the rebuttals you have received. You don't do that. You switch to these kinds of tactics, and others for which you have already been called such as dismissing a comment with "rhetoric" or "irrelevant", which can be called bad faith disputation.
Also, just because you are offended by a comment doesn't make it an ad hominem, by which I assume you mean personal insult - a bastardization of the the phrase's original meaning, which was an informal fallacy that didn't necessarily insult, but attempted to disqualify a source as you just did above when you dismissed an argument because the source hasn't studied the scripture to your satisfaction.
You might be offended by this post, but if so, that's on you, and it doesn't make the post an "ad hominem." Like slander, if it's true, it's not that. And if it is true and offends, it's not an ad hominem fallacy, nor an insult.
RestlessSoul
Well-Known Member
Indeed. In the 100 years since Einstein, Schrodinger, Heisenberg etc turned physics on it’s head, some of the greatest scientific minds have been wrestling with metaphysical conundrums, as much as with purely naturalistic ones. Dogmatic adherents to what has been called the doctrine of “scientism” don’t appear to have cottoned on yet.