Creation of Universe, Scriptures vs Science

[ratiocinator]

I dunno, the odds of the mathematical patterns found in the Wow signal of the terrestrial genetic code occurring by natural process is 1 in 10 trillion!

Every time you shuffle a deck of cards, you'll get a pattern that has a chance of happening of 1 in 80,658,175,170,943,878,571,660,636,856,403,766,975,289,505,440,883,277,824,000,000,000,000 (52 factorial), which makes 10,000,000,000,000 look rather small. Improbability by itself is not significant, nobody has ever claimed that there aren't patterns in DNA, and if you muck about long enough with numerology, you'll find patterns in anything and you can then calculate some astounding odds of it being like that by chance.

 

[KWED]

Cute.

And there was me thinking that you didn't have the ability to form cogent arguments.
Chapeau!

 

[KWED]

Quran and Space time, Hyperspace and Wormholes
"A blogger on a CNN Article asked that I share an example of how the Quran is continually showing us miracles. I chose this topic that is not widely talked about to share with him/her. I hope this is informative and interesting to you.

Due to your legitimate curiosity, I will share with you something that is not talked about as much nowadays but is worth contemplating upon. Have you heard of Spacetime? Have you heard of Hyperspace (Multiple Universes)? Have you heard of wormholes?

From scientific research (Thanks ALLAH for the advancement we have in humanity nowadays), it is said that Spacetime is CURVED (yes right, spacetime is CURVED). This fact only became known recently after the explorations that humanity learned about in the 20th century.

Also, Hyperspace? It is now scientifically proven that hyperspace is a reality! There are actually mathematical equations that show that universes of up to 11 dimensions do EXIST! We, humans, live in a 4 dimensional universe, 3 in space and time. Wormholes being the openings that could be a shortcut to go from one universe to another!

Now, how is this relevant to the Quran and its continuous miracles? Let me take you with you in a journey called the Quran Journey (all because of your legitimate curiosity)..

Every time the Quran talks about space and travel in space, It uses the word (Arooj). The choice of this word is not random. A single word is a miracle. The word in Arabic is used among Badwins to signify a curved pathway (for someone to go from point A to point B passing through point C, it is said that he is gone through Arooj). For the longest time, Muslims would literally translate the meaning of the Quran when seeing this word as traveled or ascended. It is not until the discoveries in the 20th century that the choice of this word became APPARENT.


He knows what penetrates into the earth and what emerges from it and what descends from the heaven and what <b>ascends</b> therein. And He is the Merciful, the Forgiving. (34:2)


The word used in the above verse is يَعْرُجُ


It is He who created the heavens and earth in six days and then established Himself above the Throne. He knows what penetrates into the earth and what emerges from it and what descends from the heaven and what <b>ascends</b> therein; and He is with you wherever you are. And Allah, of what you do, is Seeing. (57:4)


The word used in the above verse is also يَعْرُجُ

Moving to the second point in regards to hyperspace and wormholes, I would like to share with you one verse in the Quran that tackles but the above concept of curved spacetime and also wormholes. What science discovered is that it would take us huge amount of energies to make a dent into another universe (if we collect all the resources of this world to get through this wormhole today, we wouldn’t be able to). Does that mean that humanity wouldn’t be able to get through? Not at all. Perhaps one day we will be able to get through this (ALLAH Knows best). A scientist once said talking about other universes that if we were to make it to another universe, we will go MAD because that is a dimension beyond our realizations and dimensions. Little did he know that the Quran spoke about this 1400 years ago. Read with me the following!


And [even] if We opened to them a gate from the heaven and they continued therein to <b>ascend</b>, (14) They would say, “Our eyes have only been dazzled. Rather, we are a people affected by magic.” (15:15)

The word used in the above verse is also يَعْرُجُونَ (plural of يَعْرُجُ). Indeed, we would say our eyes are dazzled because we will be in a dimension above our dimension and creation above our realization.. This is the Quran my dear friend. I talked about this to give an idea of what this means through our limited realization. Here is an excerpt from an earlier post.

If you have read my earlier posts, you would understand that our realization of God is limited to our 4 dimensional universe. That is, we only comprehend God with our brains that are limited to this universe. Science tells us that there are universes as many as up to 11 dimensions (mathematically at least). We live in a 4th dimensional universe. Can you imagine what it would be like to be in a 5th dimensional universe? Mad, isn’t it? What is that 5th dimension? We fail to even know that let alone knowing the 11th dimension. Now, since we fail miserably to understand and comprehend these realities, our understanding of the Creator is yet very limited. We don’t encompass ALLAH (God) for he is the Greater of all. However, His Being is veiled from us through his attributes (all-Hearing, All-knowing, etc) but those attributes in themselves are only intellectual realizations for many of us (they get to actual understanding for some) and they are also veiled from us through the actions of God. The actions that we see in our universe..

You might ask, how does the Quran for example link you to God? The answer is, God uses a 4 dimensional language to speak to 4 dimensional creatures. The revelation came to fit and suit our actual level of comprehension and understanding. Hope this helps! The above explanation could be used to also add Angles as being creatures of higher dimension, a dimension that is not visible to us

We can observe height, depth and so on (3 dimensions and 1 in time). You can have an idea what a 3 dimensional (2 in space and 1 in time perhaps) creature would be compared to you. A creature that doesn’t experience depth or height. Are you similar to that creature (even though you are not the one who created that creature? Of course not! What do you think of the CREATOR of both creatures (the 4 dimensional and the 3 dimensional now)? Is he in any way the same as those creatures? Of COURSE NOT! If this 3 dimensional creature is brought to our UNIVERSE, what would he SEE? A cross sectional view of everything around. It is safe to say that he WOULD go MAD because he can’t comprehend anything around.. This is one of the miracles of the Quran to tell us about those realities that we became familiar with just 100 years ago (Quran was revealed 1400 years ago)."

Quran and Space time, Hyperspace and Wormholes

No idea what your point is here, if there even is one.

 

[KWED]

I dunno, the odds of the mathematical patterns found in the Wow signal of the terrestrial genetic code occurring by natural process is 1 in 10 trillion!

You still aren't getting it. Those "mathematical patterns" are not actual things that are actually there. They are concepts that require defining by human minds. We have a propensity to find patterns in all sorts of things. The odds of no one finding any patterns anywhere is more than a gazillion to one. Boom!

 

[RestlessSoul]

They already found them you said? So what difference do the odds make if it happened already? Or is this going to be a claim that adding a vastly complex unevidenced deity using magic that has no explanatory powers at all, somehow lowers the odds of why something is there? Only that has always seemed a dubious premise at best to me, it seems to fall foul of Occam's razor.

“The remarkable fact is that the value of [these] numbers seem to have been very finely adjusted to make possible the development of life…Most sets of values would give rise to universes that, although they might be very beautiful, would contain no-one able to wonder at that beauty. One can take this either as evidence of a divine purpose in Creation and the choice of the laws of science, or as support for the strong anthropic principle.”
- Stephen Hawking

No doubt you will now get googling for a Hawking quote that leans towards atheism. But that would be to miss the point; the point being that truly creative thinkers are never shut off to the myriad possibilities which may challenge their conceptions of reality.

 

[firedragon]

Here is yet another example of a theist trying to disqualify the dissenting opinion of an atheist by imposing some arbitrary and irrelevant standard.

So you think people can just make arbitrary statements about subjects that have been studied in academia for centuries and millenniums, made with absolutely no knowledge about them?

Not a good standard. If your source of information is from people who are so uneducated in something making random statements as they feel, then you should consider your source of knowledge.

 

[KWED]

Indeed. In the 100 years since Einstein, Schrodinger, Heisenberg etc turned physics on it’s head, some of the greatest scientific minds have been wrestling with metaphysical conundrums, as much as with purely naturalistic ones. Dogmatic adherents to what has been called the doctrine of “scientism” don’t appear to have cottoned on yet.

Or in other words "People have been failing to demonstrate or successfully argue the metaphysical for 100 years, despite some scientists seemingly referring to such things".

 

[KWED]

So you think people can just make arbitrary statements about subjects that have been studied in academia for centuries and millenniums, made with absolutely no knowledge about them?

Not a good standard. If your source of information is from people who are so uneducated in something making random statements as they feel, then you should consider your source of knowledge.

You are attempting to construct a false dichotomy of "in-depth academic study of subject x" vs "zero knowledge of subject x".
You have, unsurprisingly, failed.

 

[RestlessSoul]

You still aren't getting it. Those "mathematical patterns" are not actual things that are actually there. They are concepts that require defining by human minds. We have a propensity to find patterns in all sorts of things. The odds of no one finding any patterns anywhere is more than a gazillion to one. Boom!

“Where there is matter, there is geometry.
Geometry is one and eternal, shining in the mind of God. That share in it is accorded to men, is one of the reasons that Man is the image of God.”
- Johannes Kepler, mathematician and astronomer

 

[RestlessSoul]

Or in other words "People have been failing to demonstrate or successfully argue the metaphysical for 100 years, despite some scientists seemingly referring to such things".

That’s not remotely what I said. Physics needs metaphysical concepts, in order to conceptualise the universe. Philosophy and science are not enemies, and to be dismissive of either is to the detriment of both.

 

[KWED]

“Where there is matter, there is geometry.
Geometry is one and eternal, shining in the mind of God. That share in it is accorded to men, is one of the reasons that Man is the image of God.”
- Johannes Kepler, mathematician and astronomer

What has geometry got to do with numerology?

Also, what has god got to do with geometry?

 

[Sheldon]

“The remarkable fact is that the value of [these] numbers seem to have been very finely adjusted to make possible the development of life…

They may seem that way to you, but that doesn't mean they were, and I still don't see how adding an immensely complex deity and inexplicable magic is more likely as a cause, than (just for an example), an as yet unknown natural phenomena? We know natural phenomena exist for an objective fact after all, I'm not aware of any objective evidence that a deity is even possible? I'd also say that when ever creationists or theists speculate in this way, the god claim has no explanatory powers at all.

No doubt you will now get googling for a Hawking quote that leans towards atheism.

Nope, since I know what an appeal to authority fallacy is I would not do that.

But that would be to miss the point; the point being that truly creative thinkers are never shut off to the myriad possibilities which may challenge their conceptions of reality.

I don't know what you mean by "shutting it off", I am an atheist, and I don't believe in any deity or deities because there is no objective evidence. I don't know whether any deity is possible, so there is nothing to shut off, as you put it, unless some objective evidence or data is demonstrated to support that claim. If we are merely making unevidenced speculations, then I could as easily speculate an invisible dragon living in my attack did it all. How would you avoid shutting off that possibility?

 

[KWED]

That’s not remotely what I said. Physics needs metaphysical concepts, in order to conceptualise the universe. Philosophy and science are not enemies, and to be dismissive of either is to the detriment of both.

What "metaphysical concepts" does physics need?

Philosophy is little more than people insisting that their opinion on something meaningless is worthwhile. I am happily dismissive of it until someone can show its use and value.

 

[Sheldon]

Physics needs metaphysical concepts, in order to conceptualise the universe. Philosophy and science are not enemies, and to be dismissive of either is to the detriment of both.

Well I have no problem with the fact that theoretical physicist may use speculation as part of the process, I just don't see how this remotely evidences any deity? I'd also note that while imagination is an important part of the scientific method, especially at the start, it is not how the method validates ideas.

 

[KWED]

“The remarkable fact is that the value of [these] numbers seem to have been very finely adjusted to make possible the development of life…Most sets of values would give rise to universes that, although they might be very beautiful, would contain no-one able to wonder at that beauty. One can take this either as evidence of a divine purpose in Creation and the choice of the laws of science, or as support for the strong anthropic principle.”
- Stephen Hawking

No doubt you will now get googling for a Hawking quote that leans towards atheism. But that would be to miss the point; the point being that truly creative thinkers are never shut off to the myriad possibilities which may challenge their conceptions of reality.

Bare quote mining. Hawking absolutely did not consider that the universe might have been created and fine tuned by a supernatural intelligence. It is simply dishonest to even imply that he did.

However, as you are quoting Hawking, here's a gem... "philosophy is dead". Ouch!

 

[firedragon]

That’s not remotely what I said. Physics needs metaphysical concepts, in order to conceptualise the universe. Philosophy and science are not enemies, and to be dismissive of either is to the detriment of both.

RS. To be dismissive of each other is not just the detriment. It is simple ignorance.

 

[Valjean]

You are displaying propaganda atheists have developed just like evangelists of any other religion. It’s actually much worse. Lot of preaching.

Can you show me in philosophy of science where scientists don’t take methodological naturalism as an axiom?

Go ahead. That’s the beginning.

No, atheists aren't known for preaching, that would be the Abrahamics.

Atheists have no theology, no political agenda, no common beliefs. We have nothing in common but our lack of belief. What would we promote with propaganda? What would we preach about?

Usually the only time you hear from us is in response to your preaching; your propaganda. In my own case my lack of belief never comes up, except here in RF.

Atheists simply state facts, ask for evidence, and point out faulty reasoning or unwarranted conclusions. Apparently this hits the theists hard enough that they retaliate with all sorts of anti-atheist claptrap like this.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Bare quote mining. Hawking absolutely did not consider that the universe might have been created and fine tuned by a supernatural intelligence. It is simply dishonest to even imply that he did.

However, as you are quoting Hawking, here's a gem... "philosophy is dead". Ouch!

Unlike you, I wasn’t quite mining, I was illustrating a point using Hawking’s words in context, appropriately, and from a book I was reading this morning. We can all Google things, but that does not constitute intelligent discourse, something in which I perceive you to have no interest.

 

[Sheldon]

Unlike you, I wasn’t quite mining, I was illustrating a point using Hawking’s words in context, appropriately, and from a book I was reading this morning. We can all Google things, but that does not constitute intelligent discourse, something in which I perceive you to have no interest.

The point is that a subjective opinion is not made more credible because it comes from a genius, that is not professor Hawking's genius was established, through his opinions.

However since you invoked one of those here are some more from professor Hawking.

“I regard the brain as a computer which will stop working when its components fail,” he told the Guardian. “There is no heaven or afterlife for broken down computers; that is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark.”

“Before we understand science, it is natural to believe that God created the universe. But now science offers a more convincing explanation,” he said. “What I meant by ‘we would know the mind of God’ is, we would know everything that God would know, if there were a God, which there isn’t. I’m an atheist.”

interview with El Mundo in 2014

I wonder how he shut those ideas down, as you put it?

 

[RestlessSoul]

The point is that a subjective opinion is not made more credible because it comes from a genius, that is not professor Hawking's genius was established, through his opinions.

However since you invoked one of those here are some more from professor Hawking.

“I regard the brain as a computer which will stop working when its components fail,” he told the Guardian. “There is no heaven or afterlife for broken down computers; that is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark.”

“Before we understand science, it is natural to believe that God created the universe. But now science offers a more convincing explanation,” he said. “What I meant by ‘we would know the mind of God’ is, we would know everything that God would know, if there were a God, which there isn’t. I’m an atheist.”

interview with El Mundo in 2014

I wonder how he shut those ideas down, as you put it?

As I predicted earlier, you have entirely missed the point. Hawking was no two dimensional thinker; he wrestled with philosophical concepts. Whatever he concluded about the existence or non existence of God, is secondary to the fact that he was not hidebound by prejudice or wilful ignorance, in the process by which he reached his conclusions. That is why his observations have weight, and yours do not. Shift a little to the left of right, and I suspect your worldview will look exactly the same. This is because your vision is without depth, and your prejudice keeps it that way.