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Creationist Error #1: One can not believe Evolution and still remain devout in their faith.

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
oh, must be true then!
Well it is not claimed to be - but what it is, is the best explanation of our observations that we have at this time.

I hope you understand that - it is not 'THE TRUTH', it is not a belief, it is not an ideology, it has nothing to do with atheism. The Theory of Evolution is the best explanation of the data at this time.
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
Well it is not claimed to be - but what it is, is the best explanation of our observations that we have at this time.

I hope you understand that - it is not 'THE TRUTH', it is not a belief, it is not an ideology, it has nothing to do with atheism. The Theory of Evolution is the best explanation of the data at this time.

at least according to a small minority.. which doesn't make it false either. Truth often hides surprises- classical physics stood sacred, immutable far longer than classical evolution, and with far more direct observation, measurement, and was far more widely accepted- especially in academia... As long as we all acknowledge faith in our beliefs, we do not assume intellectual superiority and are open to new ideas yes?
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
Maybe he'll retract it if he finds the fossils?

You should post the entire quote not cherry pick it to fit your agenda, this is not being honest or truthful Guy.

"
Cambrian "explosion"
Measured by virtually any criterion one might propose, studies of Precambrian life have burst forth since the mid-1960s to culminate in recent years in discovery of the oldest fossils known, petrified cellular microbes nearly 3,500 million years old, more than three-quarters the age of the Earth. Precambrian paleobiology is thriving---the vast majority of all scientists who have ever investigated the early fossil record are alive and working today; new discoveries are being made at an ever quickening clip....After more than a century of trial and error, of search and final discovery, those of us who wonder about life's early history can be thankful that what was once "inexplicable" to Darwin is no longer so to us. --J. William Schopf

The Cambrian explosion refers to the quality of the fossil record during the first 30 million years of the Cambrian Period (roughly 570 to 500 million years ago). During that 30-million-year period, "mollusks, starfish, arthropods, worms, and chordates (including vertebrates)"* evolved. There were sponges, bryozoans, hydrozoans, brachiopods, and a few species of stalked echinoderms.* As Richard Dawkins notes: "It's as though they were just planted there, without any evolutionary history" (Dawkins 1996: 229). Dawkins doesn't claim to know why there is so little pre-Cambrian fossil evidence but he suspects "it might be that many of these animals had only soft parts to their bodies: no shells or bones to fossilize" (Dawkins 1996: 230).

The oldest fossilized bacteria date from about 3.5 billion years ago. Two billion years later algae—organisms with cells, a nucleus, and chromosomes—appeared. Marine invertebrates with hard shells and skeletons of chitin or lime are more conducive to fossil preservation than soft-bodied creatures. Perhaps adding to the conditions that were conducive to preserving fossils during the Cambrian Period was the fact that most landmasses on the planet at that time were in the Tropics or the southern hemisphere.

Before the Cambrian Period, life on earth had emerged but large animals had not evolved. One explanation for this is that respiration was not possible as there was not much oxygen content in the atmosphere and the oceans until the Cambrian. Another explanation is that the earth was a frozen snowball until about the Cambrian Period and that sudden melting brought about a "climate shock" that triggered the evolution of multi-cellular animals. There are other proposed explanations, as well.*

For some reason, creationists think the Cambrian explosion is evidence that counts against evolutionbut supports their hypothesis that an invisible magical being created species individually. As Jerry Coyne notes:

many animals and plants do not show up as fossils until well after the Cambrian explosion: bony fishes and land plants first appeared around 440 million years ago, reptiles around 350 million years ago, mammals around 250 million years ago, flowering plants around 210 million years ago, and human ancestors around 5 million years ago. The staggered appearance of groups that become very different over the next 500 million years gives no support to the notion of instantaneously created species that thereafter remain largely unchanged. If this record does reflect the exertions of an intelligent designer, he was apparently dissatisfied with nearly all of his creations, repeatedly destroying them and creating a new set of species that just happened to resemble descendants of those that he had destroyed.

The fact is, the fossil record is imperfect. As Richard Dawkins notes: "if we arrange all our available fossils in chronological order, they do not form a smooth sequence of scarcely perceptible change" (Dawkins 1996: 229). Eldredge and Gould proposed the theory of punctuated equilibrium on the belief that some of the gaps in the fossil record represent what actually happened: some gaps are due to evolution occurring in sudden bursts followed by periods where no evolutionary change took place in given lineages. But even Eldredge and Gould recognized that some gaps many be due to imperfections in the record.

Creationists love to quote Gould and Dawkins out of context.Christie Syftestad of Roseville writes that "Stephen Jay Gould himself admitted that fossil evidence completely contradicts natural selection" (letter to the editor, Sacramento Bee, Dec. 19, 2005). Not quite. In his final published work, The Structure of Evolutionary Theory, Gould wrote that an important reason for writing the book was to present

a tight brief for substantial reformulation in the structure of evolutionary theory, with all threads of revision conceptually united into an argument of different thrust and form, but still sufficiently continuous with its original Darwinian base to remain within the same intellectual lineage and logic (2002: p. 33).

Furthermore, unlike creationists and ID advocates, Gould was a scientist. The lack of fossil evidence from pre-Cambrian times did not mean it was time to give up science and bring in a god or some other magical being to wave his wand and create species individually just as it says in the Bible! No, Gould notes proudly that paleontologists have been scouring the appropriate sediments on earth for whatever evidence they might find of pre-Cambrian life:

For example, the earth's first prominent assemblage of animals, named the Ediacara fauna for the Australian locality of its first discovery but now known from all continents, lived from about 600 million years ago right up to the explosion, with perhaps a few forms surviving beyond. These large creatures (up to a meter in length in one case, though most specimens occupy the range of centimeters to decimeters) tend to be highly flattened in form, composed of numerous sections that seem to be "quilted" together (certainly not segmented in any metameric way), and appear to possess no body openings. Although some researchers have sought the origin of a few bilaterian phyla within this fauna, the comparisons seem farfetched and many paleontologists regard the Ediacaran animals as an early expression of pre-bilaterian possibilities of diploblast design (with modern cindarians and a few other groups surviving as a remnant of this fuller diversity), while other experts have regarded them as an entirely separate (and failed) experiment in multicellular life or even as a group of marine lichen! (Gould 2002: 1157).

The creationists and ID advocates are anti-scientific propagandists. They assume that no amount of scientific investigation will ever produce more data of relevance to understanding the processes of evolution that have taken place over the past several billion years on this planet. In short, their only interest in science is to find areas where scientists see problems to be investigated and declare that the problems can't be solved except by appealing to a magical being who can do anything that's needed to make the data fit with somebody's understanding of the Bible.

Some of these pious frauds go so far as to claim that evolution is false and not scientific. That's the position of Frank Sherwin of theInstitute for Creation Research, an outfit of religious zealots who see their Christian mission as proving the "scientific bankruptcy of evolution." According to Sherwin (in an article written by his equally pious sister, Elisabeth), the Cambrian explosion is one of the "four irrefutable arguments" against evolution. Frank believes that a true scientist believes in the Bible and appeals to a magical invisible being to do his science for him. His sister says she accepts intelligent design rather than evolution because she's "irritated by the arrogance of evolutionists who claim to have all the answers" (Sherwin 2005). If either Sherwin sibling actually read anything by Dawkins or Gould or an other evolutionary scientist they would have to lie their way to heaven if they tried to maintain that evolutionists are the ones who claim to have all the answers. The ID and creationist attackers of evolution only appear when evolutionists don't have the answers. And the pious creationists appear mainly to declare that it is hopeless to search any further, that it's time to give up and recognize that only a miracle can solve the problem. Then, in a glorious non sequiturthey declare, as Frank Sherwin does, that "the world view of a person who thinks they came from bacteria is likely to be substantially different from the world view of someone who thinks they were created in [some god's] image" (Sherwin 2005). That's the moral of their story, it seems.

This is the talk of a propagandist, not a scientist. (What you gonna believe? that you're ephemeral slime or an immortal spirit?) It is the talk of a man who has no true interest in the magnificent and magical universe around him. It is the talk of a man who has an imaginary friend that allows him to stop thinking and dogmatically declare that he has all the answers so there is no need to investigate this wonderful world of living things any further. There are many straws such a man might grasp, but the Cambrian explosion shouldn't be one of them.

further reading

book

Dawkins, Richard. The Blind Watchmaker: Why the Evidence of Evolution Reveals a Universe Without Design (W W Norton & Co., 1996).

websites

Talk Origins on the Cambrian explosion

Solution to Darwin's dilemma: Discovery of the missing Precambrian record of life by J. William Schopf

"The Case Against Intelligent Design: The Faith That Dare Not Speak Its Name" by Jerry Coyne (08.11.05)

"One side can be wrong" by Richard Dawkins & Jerry Coyne

Geologic Eras and Periods

The Cambrian Period

The Cambrian Explosion - PBS

The Cambrian Mass Extinction

The Snowball Earth by Paul F. Hoffman and Daniel P. Schrag August 8, 1999

news story

Sherwin, Elisabeth. (2005). "The best thing about origins debate is getting people to think," Davis Enterprise, Dec. 19.

Last updated 16-Dec-2014

Cambrian "explosion" - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
at least according to a small minority..
Not sure how 99.7% is a small minority, but sure .
which doesn't make it false either. Truth often hides surprises- classical physics stood sacred, immutable far longer than classical evolution, and with far more direct observation, measurement, and was far more widely accepted- especially in academia... As long as we all acknowledge faith in our beliefs, we do not assume intellectual superiority and are open to new ideas yes?
Sure, but this is about the absence of a belief Guy - you still can't get that?
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
Well it is not claimed to be.

Dawkins “Evolution is a fact. Beyond reasonable doubt, beyond serious doubt, beyond sane, informed, intelligent doubt, beyond doubt evolution is a fact...That didn't have to be true. It is not self-evidently, tautologically, obviously true, and there was a time when most people, even educated people, thought it wasn't. It didn't have to be true, but it is.”

that sounds fairly definitive to me!
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Dawkins “Evolution is a fact. Beyond reasonable doubt, beyond serious doubt, beyond sane, informed, intelligent doubt, beyond doubt evolution is a fact...That didn't have to be true. It is not self-evidently, tautologically, obviously true, and there was a time when most people, even educated people, thought it wasn't. It didn't have to be true, but it is.”

that sounds fairly definitive to me!
Sure, Dawkins said that. Why would I have to defend Dawkins?
Besides - evolution is true, it IS a fact. I said that the THEORY OF EVOLUTION was an explanation, the best explanation we have at this time - it explains the fact of evolution, the truth of evolution.
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
You should post the entire quote not cherry pick it to fit your agenda, this is not being honest or truthful Guy.

"
Cambrian "explosion"
Measured by virtually any criterion one might propose, studies of Precambrian life have burst forth since the mid-1960s to culminate in recent years in discovery of the oldest fossils known, petrified cellular microbes nearly 3,500 million years old, more than three-quarters the age of the Earth. Precambrian paleobiology is thriving---the vast majority of all scientists who have ever investigated the early fossil record are alive and working today; new discoveries are being made at an ever quickening clip....After more than a century of trial and error, of search and final discovery, those of us who wonder about life's early history can be thankful that what was once "inexplicable" to Darwin is no longer so to us. --J. William Schopf

The Cambrian explosion refers to the quality of the fossil record during the first 30 million years of the Cambrian Period (roughly 570 to 500 million years ago). During that 30-million-year period, "mollusks, starfish, arthropods, worms, and chordates (including vertebrates)"* evolved. There were sponges, bryozoans, hydrozoans, brachiopods, and a few species of stalked echinoderms.* As Richard Dawkins notes: "It's as though they were just planted there, without any evolutionary history" (Dawkins 1996: 229). Dawkins doesn't claim to know why there is so little pre-Cambrian fossil evidence but he suspects "it might be that many of these animals had only soft parts to their bodies: no shells or bones to fossilize" (Dawkins 1996: 230).

The oldest fossilized bacteria date from about 3.5 billion years ago. Two billion years later algae—organisms with cells, a nucleus, and chromosomes—appeared. Marine invertebrates with hard shells and skeletons of chitin or lime are more conducive to fossil preservation than soft-bodied creatures. Perhaps adding to the conditions that were conducive to preserving fossils during the Cambrian Period was the fact that most landmasses on the planet at that time were in the Tropics or the southern hemisphere.

Before the Cambrian Period, life on earth had emerged but large animals had not evolved. One explanation for this is that respiration was not possible as there was not much oxygen content in the atmosphere and the oceans until the Cambrian. Another explanation is that the earth was a frozen snowball until about the Cambrian Period and that sudden melting brought about a "climate shock" that triggered the evolution of multi-cellular animals. There are other proposed explanations, as well.*

For some reason, creationists think the Cambrian explosion is evidence that counts against evolutionbut supports their hypothesis that an invisible magical being created species individually. As Jerry Coyne notes:

many animals and plants do not show up as fossils until well after the Cambrian explosion: bony fishes and land plants first appeared around 440 million years ago, reptiles around 350 million years ago, mammals around 250 million years ago, flowering plants around 210 million years ago, and human ancestors around 5 million years ago. The staggered appearance of groups that become very different over the next 500 million years gives no support to the notion of instantaneously created species that thereafter remain largely unchanged. If this record does reflect the exertions of an intelligent designer, he was apparently dissatisfied with nearly all of his creations, repeatedly destroying them and creating a new set of species that just happened to resemble descendants of those that he had destroyed.

The fact is, the fossil record is imperfect. As Richard Dawkins notes: "if we arrange all our available fossils in chronological order, they do not form a smooth sequence of scarcely perceptible change" (Dawkins 1996: 229). Eldredge and Gould proposed the theory of punctuated equilibrium on the belief that some of the gaps in the fossil record represent what actually happened: some gaps are due to evolution occurring in sudden bursts followed by periods where no evolutionary change took place in given lineages. But even Eldredge and Gould recognized that some gaps many be due to imperfections in the record.

Creationists love to quote Gould and Dawkins out of context.Christie Syftestad of Roseville writes that "Stephen Jay Gould himself admitted that fossil evidence completely contradicts natural selection" (letter to the editor, Sacramento Bee, Dec. 19, 2005). Not quite. In his final published work, The Structure of Evolutionary Theory, Gould wrote that an important reason for writing the book was to present

a tight brief for substantial reformulation in the structure of evolutionary theory, with all threads of revision conceptually united into an argument of different thrust and form, but still sufficiently continuous with its original Darwinian base to remain within the same intellectual lineage and logic (2002: p. 33).

Furthermore, unlike creationists and ID advocates, Gould was a scientist. The lack of fossil evidence from pre-Cambrian times did not mean it was time to give up science and bring in a god or some other magical being to wave his wand and create species individually just as it says in the Bible! No, Gould notes proudly that paleontologists have been scouring the appropriate sediments on earth for whatever evidence they might find of pre-Cambrian life:

For example, the earth's first prominent assemblage of animals, named the Ediacara fauna for the Australian locality of its first discovery but now known from all continents, lived from about 600 million years ago right up to the explosion, with perhaps a few forms surviving beyond. These large creatures (up to a meter in length in one case, though most specimens occupy the range of centimeters to decimeters) tend to be highly flattened in form, composed of numerous sections that seem to be "quilted" together (certainly not segmented in any metameric way), and appear to possess no body openings. Although some researchers have sought the origin of a few bilaterian phyla within this fauna, the comparisons seem farfetched and many paleontologists regard the Ediacaran animals as an early expression of pre-bilaterian possibilities of diploblast design (with modern cindarians and a few other groups surviving as a remnant of this fuller diversity), while other experts have regarded them as an entirely separate (and failed) experiment in multicellular life or even as a group of marine lichen! (Gould 2002: 1157).

The creationists and ID advocates are anti-scientific propagandists. They assume that no amount of scientific investigation will ever produce more data of relevance to understanding the processes of evolution that have taken place over the past several billion years on this planet. In short, their only interest in science is to find areas where scientists see problems to be investigated and declare that the problems can't be solved except by appealing to a magical being who can do anything that's needed to make the data fit with somebody's understanding of the Bible.

Some of these pious frauds go so far as to claim that evolution is false and not scientific. That's the position of Frank Sherwin of theInstitute for Creation Research, an outfit of religious zealots who see their Christian mission as proving the "scientific bankruptcy of evolution." According to Sherwin (in an article written by his equally pious sister, Elisabeth), the Cambrian explosion is one of the "four irrefutable arguments" against evolution. Frank believes that a true scientist believes in the Bible and appeals to a magical invisible being to do his science for him. His sister says she accepts intelligent design rather than evolution because she's "irritated by the arrogance of evolutionists who claim to have all the answers" (Sherwin 2005). If either Sherwin sibling actually read anything by Dawkins or Gould or an other evolutionary scientist they would have to lie their way to heaven if they tried to maintain that evolutionists are the ones who claim to have all the answers. The ID and creationist attackers of evolution only appear when evolutionists don't have the answers. And the pious creationists appear mainly to declare that it is hopeless to search any further, that it's time to give up and recognize that only a miracle can solve the problem. Then, in a glorious non sequiturthey declare, as Frank Sherwin does, that "the world view of a person who thinks they came from bacteria is likely to be substantially different from the world view of someone who thinks they were created in [some god's] image" (Sherwin 2005). That's the moral of their story, it seems.

This is the talk of a propagandist, not a scientist. (What you gonna believe? that you're ephemeral slime or an immortal spirit?) It is the talk of a man who has no true interest in the magnificent and magical universe around him. It is the talk of a man who has an imaginary friend that allows him to stop thinking and dogmatically declare that he has all the answers so there is no need to investigate this wonderful world of living things any further. There are many straws such a man might grasp, but the Cambrian explosion shouldn't be one of them.

further reading

book

Dawkins, Richard. The Blind Watchmaker: Why the Evidence of Evolution Reveals a Universe Without Design (W W Norton & Co., 1996).

websites

Talk Origins on the Cambrian explosion

Solution to Darwin's dilemma: Discovery of the missing Precambrian record of life by J. William Schopf

"The Case Against Intelligent Design: The Faith That Dare Not Speak Its Name" by Jerry Coyne (08.11.05)

"One side can be wrong" by Richard Dawkins & Jerry Coyne

Geologic Eras and Periods

The Cambrian Period

The Cambrian Explosion - PBS

The Cambrian Mass Extinction

The Snowball Earth by Paul F. Hoffman and Daniel P. Schrag August 8, 1999

news story


Sherwin, Elisabeth. (2005). "The best thing about origins debate is getting people to think," Davis Enterprise, Dec. 19.

Last updated 16-Dec-2014

Cambrian "explosion" - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com

As Richard Dawkins notes: "It's as though they were just planted there, without any evolutionary history" (Dawkins 1996: 229). Dawkins doesn't claim to know why there is so little pre-Cambrian fossil evidence but he suspects "it might be..."

suspects it might be....? sorry I stand corrected! the great academic tradition of 'suspicion' as used to establish such great discoveries as canals on Mars, medical leeches, global cooling and warming, and alien intelligence.

I'd honestly assumed he had a better caveat to his admission than this.

It doesn't matter even if you can prove your dog ate your homework... which he can't here... that doesn't equal a passing grade. Some of us prefer observation, measurement, repeatable experiment, quaint old fashioned methods like that..
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
As Richard Dawkins notes: "It's as though they were just planted there, without any evolutionary history" (Dawkins 1996: 229). Dawkins doesn't claim to know why there is so little pre-Cambrian fossil evidence but he suspects "it might be..."

suspects it might be....? sorry I stand corrected! the great academic tradition of 'suspicion' as used to establish such great discoveries as canals on Mars, medical leeches, global cooling and warming, and alien intelligence.

I'd honestly assumed he had a better caveat to his admission than this.

It doesn't matter even if you can prove your dog ate your homework... which he can't here... that doesn't equal a passing grade. Some of us prefer observation, measurement, repeatable experiment, quaint old fashioned methods like that..
Keep in mind that it is not claiming to have been proven - it is an EXPLANATION ok? There is a whole chapter on the Cambrian in Darwin's book by the way, it doesn't challenge the theory in any way, but it is an interesting read.
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
Keep in mind that it is not claiming to have been proven - it is an EXPLANATION ok? There is a whole chapter on the Cambrian in Darwin's book by the way, it doesn't challenge the theory in any way, but it is an interesting read.

It is, also Voyage of the Beagle is a great read, slow start, but he had quite an adventure, reading about Cptn Cook right now though, amazing the guts people had. must run though, appreciate it
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
I'd agree there, and most hold some ground in between- that being the point, God being somehow locked out of the design of life is a minority position

Your under so many wrong impression about all the sciences, evolution and God its amazing. Science is a tool its not for or against anything. Its not religion or religious and many religious people, want to know and understand the laws of nature and how nature works and that would be the Nature you believe your God created. Your quote from Dawkins certainly does nothing for your case to those who have actually studied the Cambrian explosion and no the dishonest way your using it.



"
An “explosion”?
The term “explosion” may be a bit of a misnomer. Cambrian life did not evolve in the blink of an eye. The Cambrian was preceded by many millions of years of evolution, and many of the animal phyla actually diverged during the Precambrian.

The animals of the Cambrian did not appear out of thin air. Animal fossils from before the Cambrian have been found. Roughly 575 million years ago, a strange group of animals known as Ediacarans lived in the oceans. Although, we don’t know much about the Ediacarans, the group may have included ancestors of the lineages that we identify from the Cambrian explosion."

Evolution 101: The Big Issues



"
The Cambrian Explosion:

spacer.gif

spacer.gif

For most of the nearly 4 billion years that life has existed on Earth, evolution produced little beyond bacteria,plankton, and multi-celled algae. But beginning about 600 million years ago in the Precambrian, the fossil record speaks of more rapid change. First, there was the rise and fall of mysterious creatures of the Ediacaran fauna, named for the fossil site in Australia where they were first discovered. Some of these animals may have belonged to groups that survive today, but others don't seem at all related to animals we know.

Then, between about 570 and 530 million years ago, another burst of diversification occurred, with the eventual appearance of the lineages of almost all animals living today. This stunning and unique evolutionary flowering is termed the "Cambrian explosion," taking the name of the geological age in whose early part it occurred. But it was not as rapid as an explosion: the changes seems to have happened in a range of about 30 million years, and some stages took 5 to 10 million years.

It's important to remember that what we call "the fossil record" is only the available fossil record. In order to be available to us, the remains of ancient plants and animals have to be preserved first, and this means that they need to have fossilizable parts and to be buried in an environment that will not destroy them.

It has long been suspected that the sparseness of the pre-Cambrian fossil record reflects these two problems. First, organisms may not have sequestered and secreted much in the way of fossilizable hard parts; and second, the environments in which they lived may have characteristically dissolved those hard parts after death and recycled them. An exception was the mysterious "small shelly fauna" -- minute shelled animals that are hard to categorize -- that left abundant fossils in the early Cambrian. Recently, minute fossil embryos dating to 570 million years ago have also been discovered. Even organisms that hadn't evolved hard parts, and thus didn't leave fossils of their bodies, left fossils of the trails they made as they moved through the Precambrian mud. Life was flourishing long before the Cambrian "explosion".

The best record of the Cambrian diversification is the Burgess Shale in British Columbia. Laid down in the middle-Cambrian, when the "explosion" had already been underway for several million years, this formation contains the first appearance in the fossil record of brachiopods, with clamlike shells, as well as trilobites, mollusks, echinoderms, and many odd animals that probably belong to extinct lineages. They include Opabinia, with five eyes and a nose like a fire hose, and Wiwaxia, an armored slug with two rows of upright scales.

The question of how so many immense changes occurred in such a short time is one that stirs scientists. Why did many fundamentally different body plans evolve so early and in such profusion? Some point to the increase in oxygen that began around 700 million years ago, providing fuel for movement and the evolution of more complex body structures. Others propose that an extinction of life just before the Cambrian opened up ecological roles, or "adaptive space," that the new forms exploited. External, ecological factors like these were undoubtedly important in creating the opportunity for the Cambrian explosion to occur.

Internal, genetic factors were also crucial. Recent research suggests that the period prior to the Cambrian explosion saw the gradual evolution of a "genetic tool kit" of genes that govern developmental processes. Once assembled, this genetic tool kit enabled an unprecedented period of evolutionary experimentation -- and competition. Many forms seen in the fossil record of the Cambrian disappeared without trace. Once the body plans that proved most successful came to dominate the biosphere, evolution never had such a free hand again, and evolutionary change was limited to relatively minor tinkering with the body plans that already existed.

Interpretations of this critical period are subject of lively debate among scientists like Stephen Jay Gould of Harvard University and Simon Conway Morris of Cambridge University. Gould emphasizes the role of chance. He argues that if one could "rerun the tape" of that evolutionary event, a completely different path might have developed and would likely not have included a humanlike creature. Morris, on the other hand, contends that the environment of our planet would have created selection pressures that would likely have produced similar forms of life to those around us -- including humans.

Evolution: Library: The Cambrian Explosion


The Burgess Shale discovery was extremely important. The book is online there for you to read and learn.

Burgess Shale in British Columbia

"The Burgess Shale provides an amazing window into what the world looked like half-a-billion years ago. Understanding the contents of the Burgess Shale and the sequences of the Earth’s physical processes will help us to better understand how life has evolved and how it may continue to evolve."


Introduction | Burgess Shale Geoscience Foundation

spacer.gif
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
It is, also Voyage of the Beagle is a great read, slow start, but he had quite an adventure, reading about Cptn Cook right now though, amazing the guts people had. must run though, appreciate it
Yeah, it's almost unbelievable. There is an old cargo ship of the time in Albany, set up on the beach as an exhibit - man, they slept on hammocks with a roof less than 5ft high. The Captains cabin was the size of a dunny.
Did you ever read about Stanley? If you like adventure stories about total nutjobs - he's the guy. Had me in fits.
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
As Richard Dawkins notes: "It's as though they were just planted there, without any evolutionary history" (Dawkins 1996: 229). Dawkins doesn't claim to know why there is so little pre-Cambrian fossil evidence but he suspects "it might be..."

suspects it might be....? sorry I stand corrected! the great academic tradition of 'suspicion' as used to establish such great discoveries as canals on Mars, medical leeches, global cooling and warming, and alien intelligence.

I'd honestly assumed he had a better caveat to his admission than this.

It doesn't matter even if you can prove your dog ate your homework... which he can't here... that doesn't equal a passing grade. Some of us prefer observation, measurement, repeatable experiment, quaint old fashioned methods like that..


There are canals on Mars.

They use medical leeches now.

Global cooling can happen.

Global warming is happening.

Alien intelligence, we don't know, good possibility given the odds.

There is a huge amount of science on the Cambrian and all you did was show more evolutionary steps, your making the case for it and again its a done deal anyway.
 

NewGuyOnTheBlock

Cult Survivor/Fundamentalist Pentecostal Apostate
Of course, like most people I lack belief in evolution.

Your error is appealing to informational influence rather than the facts at hand:


It is interesting that you keep pointing out the times in history where informational influence was a factor in maintaining inaccurate beliefs, such as "canals on mars", which clearly demonstrate how the opinion of the masses is not a reliable source for determining fact from fiction; yet use informational influence to defend your position.
 

idea

Question Everything
isn't panspermia related to life specifically?

It has to do with life, the universe, and everything - it's the belief that something does not magically come from nothing, so everything (including life) has always existed in one form or another. It's a simpler solution than abiogenesis.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
It has to do with life, the universe, and everything - it's the belief that something does not magically come from nothing, so everything (including life) has always existed in one form or another. It's a simpler solution than abiogenesis.
Who says that something came from nothing?
 

idea

Question Everything
Who says that something came from nothing?

A few Christians say it... A few Jewish people seem to disagree though -
God is not the Creator, claims academic - Telegraph

another link:
Hebrew Root Word Studies
"The English word "create" is an abstract word and a foriegn concept to the Hebrews. While we see God as one who makes something from nothing (create), the Hebrews saw God like a bird who goes about acquiring and gathering materials to build a nest (qen), the sky and earth."


Mormons don't subscribe to Ex-Nihlo theories either. It solves so many problems - to know that God did not "create" evil, that He is cleaning up a mess He did not create etc... I don't see how true free will could exist if we were created either. (If we had a beginning, we would be like robots, with all of our actions stemming back to how we were created)
 

Unification

Well-Known Member
You should post the entire quote not cherry pick it to fit your agenda, this is not being honest or truthful Guy.

"
Cambrian "explosion"
Measured by virtually any criterion one might propose, studies of Precambrian life have burst forth since the mid-1960s to culminate in recent years in discovery of the oldest fossils known, petrified cellular microbes nearly 3,500 million years old, more than three-quarters the age of the Earth. Precambrian paleobiology is thriving---the vast majority of all scientists who have ever investigated the early fossil record are alive and working today; new discoveries are being made at an ever quickening clip....After more than a century of trial and error, of search and final discovery, those of us who wonder about life's early history can be thankful that what was once "inexplicable" to Darwin is no longer so to us. --J. William Schopf

The Cambrian explosion refers to the quality of the fossil record during the first 30 million years of the Cambrian Period (roughly 570 to 500 million years ago). During that 30-million-year period, "mollusks, starfish, arthropods, worms, and chordates (including vertebrates)"* evolved. There were sponges, bryozoans, hydrozoans, brachiopods, and a few species of stalked echinoderms.* As Richard Dawkins notes: "It's as though they were just planted there, without any evolutionary history" (Dawkins 1996: 229). Dawkins doesn't claim to know why there is so little pre-Cambrian fossil evidence but he suspects "it might be that many of these animals had only soft parts to their bodies: no shells or bones to fossilize" (Dawkins 1996: 230).

The oldest fossilized bacteria date from about 3.5 billion years ago. Two billion years later algae—organisms with cells, a nucleus, and chromosomes—appeared. Marine invertebrates with hard shells and skeletons of chitin or lime are more conducive to fossil preservation than soft-bodied creatures. Perhaps adding to the conditions that were conducive to preserving fossils during the Cambrian Period was the fact that most landmasses on the planet at that time were in the Tropics or the southern hemisphere.

Before the Cambrian Period, life on earth had emerged but large animals had not evolved. One explanation for this is that respiration was not possible as there was not much oxygen content in the atmosphere and the oceans until the Cambrian. Another explanation is that the earth was a frozen snowball until about the Cambrian Period and that sudden melting brought about a "climate shock" that triggered the evolution of multi-cellular animals. There are other proposed explanations, as well.*

For some reason, creationists think the Cambrian explosion is evidence that counts against evolutionbut supports their hypothesis that an invisible magical being created species individually. As Jerry Coyne notes:

many animals and plants do not show up as fossils until well after the Cambrian explosion: bony fishes and land plants first appeared around 440 million years ago, reptiles around 350 million years ago, mammals around 250 million years ago, flowering plants around 210 million years ago, and human ancestors around 5 million years ago. The staggered appearance of groups that become very different over the next 500 million years gives no support to the notion of instantaneously created species that thereafter remain largely unchanged. If this record does reflect the exertions of an intelligent designer, he was apparently dissatisfied with nearly all of his creations, repeatedly destroying them and creating a new set of species that just happened to resemble descendants of those that he had destroyed.

The fact is, the fossil record is imperfect. As Richard Dawkins notes: "if we arrange all our available fossils in chronological order, they do not form a smooth sequence of scarcely perceptible change" (Dawkins 1996: 229). Eldredge and Gould proposed the theory of punctuated equilibrium on the belief that some of the gaps in the fossil record represent what actually happened: some gaps are due to evolution occurring in sudden bursts followed by periods where no evolutionary change took place in given lineages. But even Eldredge and Gould recognized that some gaps many be due to imperfections in the record.

Creationists love to quote Gould and Dawkins out of context.Christie Syftestad of Roseville writes that "Stephen Jay Gould himself admitted that fossil evidence completely contradicts natural selection" (letter to the editor, Sacramento Bee, Dec. 19, 2005). Not quite. In his final published work, The Structure of Evolutionary Theory, Gould wrote that an important reason for writing the book was to present

a tight brief for substantial reformulation in the structure of evolutionary theory, with all threads of revision conceptually united into an argument of different thrust and form, but still sufficiently continuous with its original Darwinian base to remain within the same intellectual lineage and logic (2002: p. 33).

Furthermore, unlike creationists and ID advocates, Gould was a scientist. The lack of fossil evidence from pre-Cambrian times did not mean it was time to give up science and bring in a god or some other magical being to wave his wand and create species individually just as it says in the Bible! No, Gould notes proudly that paleontologists have been scouring the appropriate sediments on earth for whatever evidence they might find of pre-Cambrian life:

For example, the earth's first prominent assemblage of animals, named the Ediacara fauna for the Australian locality of its first discovery but now known from all continents, lived from about 600 million years ago right up to the explosion, with perhaps a few forms surviving beyond. These large creatures (up to a meter in length in one case, though most specimens occupy the range of centimeters to decimeters) tend to be highly flattened in form, composed of numerous sections that seem to be "quilted" together (certainly not segmented in any metameric way), and appear to possess no body openings. Although some researchers have sought the origin of a few bilaterian phyla within this fauna, the comparisons seem farfetched and many paleontologists regard the Ediacaran animals as an early expression of pre-bilaterian possibilities of diploblast design (with modern cindarians and a few other groups surviving as a remnant of this fuller diversity), while other experts have regarded them as an entirely separate (and failed) experiment in multicellular life or even as a group of marine lichen! (Gould 2002: 1157).

The creationists and ID advocates are anti-scientific propagandists. They assume that no amount of scientific investigation will ever produce more data of relevance to understanding the processes of evolution that have taken place over the past several billion years on this planet. In short, their only interest in science is to find areas where scientists see problems to be investigated and declare that the problems can't be solved except by appealing to a magical being who can do anything that's needed to make the data fit with somebody's understanding of the Bible.

Some of these pious frauds go so far as to claim that evolution is false and not scientific. That's the position of Frank Sherwin of theInstitute for Creation Research, an outfit of religious zealots who see their Christian mission as proving the "scientific bankruptcy of evolution." According to Sherwin (in an article written by his equally pious sister, Elisabeth), the Cambrian explosion is one of the "four irrefutable arguments" against evolution. Frank believes that a true scientist believes in the Bible and appeals to a magical invisible being to do his science for him. His sister says she accepts intelligent design rather than evolution because she's "irritated by the arrogance of evolutionists who claim to have all the answers" (Sherwin 2005). If either Sherwin sibling actually read anything by Dawkins or Gould or an other evolutionary scientist they would have to lie their way to heaven if they tried to maintain that evolutionists are the ones who claim to have all the answers. The ID and creationist attackers of evolution only appear when evolutionists don't have the answers. And the pious creationists appear mainly to declare that it is hopeless to search any further, that it's time to give up and recognize that only a miracle can solve the problem. Then, in a glorious non sequiturthey declare, as Frank Sherwin does, that "the world view of a person who thinks they came from bacteria is likely to be substantially different from the world view of someone who thinks they were created in [some god's] image" (Sherwin 2005). That's the moral of their story, it seems.

This is the talk of a propagandist, not a scientist. (What you gonna believe? that you're ephemeral slime or an immortal spirit?) It is the talk of a man who has no true interest in the magnificent and magical universe around him. It is the talk of a man who has an imaginary friend that allows him to stop thinking and dogmatically declare that he has all the answers so there is no need to investigate this wonderful world of living things any further. There are many straws such a man might grasp, but the Cambrian explosion shouldn't be one of them.

further reading

book

Dawkins, Richard. The Blind Watchmaker: Why the Evidence of Evolution Reveals a Universe Without Design (W W Norton & Co., 1996).

websites

Talk Origins on the Cambrian explosion

Solution to Darwin's dilemma: Discovery of the missing Precambrian record of life by J. William Schopf

"The Case Against Intelligent Design: The Faith That Dare Not Speak Its Name" by Jerry Coyne (08.11.05)

"One side can be wrong" by Richard Dawkins & Jerry Coyne

Geologic Eras and Periods

The Cambrian Period

The Cambrian Explosion - PBS

The Cambrian Mass Extinction

The Snowball Earth by Paul F. Hoffman and Daniel P. Schrag August 8, 1999

news story

Sherwin, Elisabeth. (2005). "The best thing about origins debate is getting people to think," Davis Enterprise, Dec. 19.

Last updated 16-Dec-2014

Cambrian "explosion" - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com

All about the quantum. Subatomic energies from celestial bodies having all of the affects.
 
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