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Creationist objections to plant evolution?

mycorrhiza

Well-Known Member
mycorrhiza, did you look over the above?

I looked through the pages a bit, but I could seem to find a video. Quite interesting, thought!


I'm not a creationist by any means but I am a theist and what I found fascinating was the prevalence of Fibonacci sequences in plants. Now this sequence most likely came about through the evolutionary processes of natural selection, but it is a sequence that is found in many things, from proteins that may lead to consciousness to nebulae.

Now the sequence isn't just random numbers but an addition of a series of numbers. As such it goes 0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21..etc. Anyways it's the prevalence of this sequence in nature and the special attribute of phi which is the angle with which matter distributes itself in systems with Fibonacci sequences that makes me wonder whether this is perhaps a sign of design. I'm not saying that it is design, it just makes me wonder.

Sir Roger Penrose himself stated that our universe has three attributes to it, material reality, consciousness and mathematics. So there is a lot more to it than meets the eye.

I am by no means either a mathematician or a biologist (though I hope to one day be a little of both), but I'd say that they have naturally evolved into these patterns, because it's logical and/or beneficial. Mathematics reflect out world, and it's quite amazing how much of nature that repeats itself in similar patterns. Fractals, logarithmic spirals, fibonacci, etc. The "perfect" angle that the leaves often sit on is due to this being the most efficient way to "collect" sunlight, with as much of the leaves showing as possible. There's an entertaining video on the subject of the fibonnaci sequence in plants, which is the same video that pursued me to borrow a math textbook at the local library:

[youtube]ahXIMUkSXX0[/youtube]
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Most of the time, the debate seems focused on the evolution of animals, so let's talk about plants instead. As hybridization is very common in plants and the hybrids mostly are fertile, how would we define a plant "kind"? We also see a huge diversity within plant families (like apples and strawberries both belonging to the Rosaceae family).

Are there any good arguments against plant evolution?

(NOTE: Abiogenesis is not to be discussed here. That's a different subject.)

According to the Bible, plants reproduce according to their kinds, just as animals do. What constitutes a "kind" appears to be cross-fertility. (Genesis 1:11,12) Just as with animals, there is great potential for variety within a plant "kind", allowing for hybrids. The same lack of evidence for evolution of animals applies to plants as well. "Darwin's model of evolution....being basically a theory of historical reconstruction,... is impossible to verify by experiment or direct observation as is normal in science." (Evolution - A Theory in Crisis)

 

unknow1

New Member
According to the Bible, plants reproduce according to their kinds, just as animals do. What constitutes a "kind" appears to be cross-fertility. (Genesis 1:11,12) Just as with animals, there is great potential for variety within a plant "kind", allowing for hybrids. The same lack of evidence for evolution of animals applies to plants as well. "Darwin's model of evolution....being basically a theory of historical reconstruction,... is impossible to verify by experiment or direct observation as is normal in science." (Evolution - A Theory in Crisis)

Do you honestly believe that Darwin's model is still what is understood as evolution?
 

mycorrhiza

Well-Known Member
According to the Bible, plants reproduce according to their kinds, just as animals do. What constitutes a "kind" appears to be cross-fertility. (Genesis 1:11,12) Just as with animals, there is great potential for variety within a plant "kind", allowing for hybrids. The same lack of evidence for evolution of animals applies to plants as well. "Darwin's model of evolution....being basically a theory of historical reconstruction,... is impossible to verify by experiment or direct observation as is normal in science." (Evolution - A Theory in Crisis)

I see no indication in the Biblical account that cross-fertilization between different species is possible.

Mutation has occured that has allowed for fertile off-spring between species that generally cannot produce fertile off-spring, and we have also forced mutations to be able to mix different plants. As we know from genetics, mutations occur quite often, and since plants don't have the same criteria for reproducing and getting food as animals do, there's a lower chance that the mutations will be detrimental to the plant's ability to live on, since it has no need to hunt or prove to other plants that it is indeed worthy of reproduction.

The science of evolution has evolved beyond Darwin's model (pun intended). What would you say constitues evidence of evolution? I'm assuming that you're familiar with what is presented as evidence (huge collection of fossils, genetic similarity, endogenous retroviruses etc).

As we have observed plants transcend species (through polyploidy, for example), speciation is indeed proven to be true. What genetic evidence is there that a plant can only change within it's "kind"? How genetically different can a plant become before it would leave it's "kind"? What would be the scientific definition of a "kind"? The word "kind" is one I have a trouble with as specifying what species a plant belongs to isn't the easiest thing, and to my understanding, if everything was created according to it's "kind", then this "kind" should be easily identified, which is not the case. Wheat and rye belong to different genus, and they have been successufully hybridized in a lab. Would you say that this is impossible in nature, or that they can indeed be related, even though they cannot normally breed?

For a great example of plant evolution, we can look at the genus brassica of the brassicaceae family (that was mentioned earlier in the topic, the mustard plant). There's a theory called Triangle of U that shows the evolutionary relationship between different species in the brassica genus, such as broccoli and mustard. Triangle of U - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Observations in science don't have to be in real-time to be valid. You are misrepresenting scientific method and bringing whole fields of science down in the process, since not all science is based on real-time observations. When it comes to time spans, we must also recognize that evolution takes time. Some plant speciation is seen in a single generation, but most of the time evolution is a very slow process.

And just for fun: They recently found Vaccinium myrtillus x vitis-idaea (european blueberry and lingonberry hybrid) in Sweden. Very rare hybrid, and rarely fertile, but this time it was, and had spread in a tiny area. They called it "blingon".
 
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MD

qualiaphile
I am by no means either a mathematician or a biologist (though I hope to one day be a little of both), but I'd say that they have naturally evolved into these patterns, because it's logical and/or beneficial. Mathematics reflect out world, and it's quite amazing how much of nature that repeats itself in similar patterns. Fractals, logarithmic spirals, fibonacci, etc. The "perfect" angle that the leaves often sit on is due to this being the most efficient way to "collect" sunlight, with as much of the leaves showing as possible. There's an entertaining video on the subject of the fibonnaci sequence in plants, which is the same video that pursued me to borrow a math textbook at the local library:

That's what I said, in plants the angle arose through natural selection. It wasn't my point. My point was that this sequence exists in several other non plant examples, and thus leads me to believe that this phi angle is prevalent in many examples in nature. That's why I find it special.
 

mycorrhiza

Well-Known Member
That's what I said, in plants the angle arose through natural selection. It wasn't my point. My point was that this sequence exists in several other non plant examples, and thus leads me to believe that this phi angle is prevalent in many examples in nature. That's why I find it special.

Ok, I understand then! It is indeed special, and it's quite amazing how often the same ratios and angles appear in our our Universe.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
According to the Bible, plants reproduce according to their kinds, just as animals do. What constitutes a "kind" appears to be cross-fertility. (Genesis 1:11,12) Just as with animals, there is great potential for variety within a plant "kind", allowing for hybrids. The same lack of evidence for evolution of animals applies to plants as well. "Darwin's model of evolution....being basically a theory of historical reconstruction,... is impossible to verify by experiment or direct observation as is normal in science." (Evolution - A Theory in Crisis)


That makes no sense. At one point in time, in the fossil record, there were no flowers. Now there are flowers. Does god add new kinds of species of plants as time progresses?
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
These video totally destroys what Rusra said about plants and flowers.

mycorrhiza

Here is the video, you will be totally amazed how many common flowers you know come from this part of China. Lillies for one and I beleive the Iris and most Rhoddies.

"This is the most bio diverse temperate forests in the world"

It lloks like flowers starting appearing somewhere around 120 million years ago.

If you like flowers this is awesome.

[youtube]C96SdSef8pA[/youtube]
The First Flower (NOVA Documentary) - YouTube
 

mycorrhiza

Well-Known Member
These video totally destroys what Rusra said about plants and flowers.

mycorrhiza

Here is the video, you will be totally amazed how many common flowers you know come from this part of China. Lillies for one and I beleive the Iris and most Rhoddies.

"This is the most bio diverse temperate forests in the world"

It lloks like flowers starting appearing somewhere around 120 million years ago.

If you like flowers this is awesome.

-youtube-

Thanks! Seems very interesting!
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Since "species" are not mentioned specifically in the Bible, it is not strange you would
"see no indication in the Biblical account that cross-fertilization between different species is possible. " "Species" does not equal "Kind".
The fossil record, long touted by evolutionists as "evidence" for evolution, in fact shows the opposite. That species appear suddenly and change very little over time. Interesting in this connection is this quote: "Apparently paleontologists had adopted the orthodox idea of gradual
evolutionary change and held onto it, even when they discovered evidence to the contrary. They
had been trying to interpret fossil evidence in terms of accepted evolutionary ideas." (The Evolutionists - The Struggle for Darwin's Soul, pp 104-105)
Trying to force the evidence to support a preconceived belief is neither scientific nor honest, but understandable in the light if the antagonism that greets anyone who dares question the ToE.

 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
That makes no sense. At one point in time, in the fossil record, there were no flowers. Now there are flowers. Does god add new kinds of species of plants as time progresses?

IWhy would that make no sense? If God created plants, as the Bible teaches, it would not be strange that at one point in the fossil record there were no flowers. And yes, God apparently did create new kinds of plants over a long creative period, called a "day" in Genesis. (Geneis 1:11-13)
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
IWhy would that make no sense? If God created plants, as the Bible teaches, it would not be strange that at one point in the fossil record there were no flowers. And yes, God apparently did create new kinds of plants over a long creative period, called a "day" in Genesis. (Geneis 1:11-13)
Now you have rendered the term "day" completely meaningless. It is not just the length time, but now you have them intermingled and overlapping.

So on the third day "God" created some plants. Then went on to create the sun, moon and stars, on the fifth day he created swimming creatures, and on the sixth day create land animals. Then for some reason he got confused and thought it was day three again and created some more plants.
 

secret2

Member
Since "species" are not mentioned specifically in the Bible, it is not strange you would
"see no indication in the Biblical account that cross-fertilization between different species is possible. " "Species" does not equal "Kind".........


So would you be kind enough to give everyone here a clear definition of 'kind' so as to facilitate discussion?
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
These video totally destroys what Rusra said about plants and flowers.

mycorrhiza

Here is the video, you will be totally amazed how many common flowers you know come from this part of China. Lillies for one and I beleive the Iris and most Rhoddies.

"This is the most bio diverse temperate forests in the world"

It lloks like flowers starting appearing somewhere around 120 million years ago.

If you like flowers this is awesome.

[youtube]C96SdSef8pA[/youtube]
The First Flower (NOVA Documentary) - YouTube


Rusra, watch the video on the evolution of flowers.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
Maybe those were "different days"? :D

wa:do

I guess so. Seeing how you will never find an angiosperm 200 million years old or more. I guess god just adds new kinds magically, in forests he preplanned to be the most diverse at some point in time. He just inserts them right in there, and the DNA only looks so similar to some flower-like gymnosperms because...
 

mycorrhiza

Well-Known Member
Since "species" are not mentioned specifically in the Bible, it is not strange you would
"see no indication in the Biblical account that cross-fertilization between different species is possible. " "Species" does not equal "Kind".
The fossil record, long touted by evolutionists as "evidence" for evolution, in fact shows the opposite. That species appear suddenly and change very little over time. Interesting in this connection is this quote: "Apparently paleontologists had adopted the orthodox idea of gradual
evolutionary change and held onto it, even when they discovered evidence to the contrary. They
had been trying to interpret fossil evidence in terms of accepted evolutionary ideas." (The Evolutionists - The Struggle for Darwin's Soul, pp 104-105)
Trying to force the evidence to support a preconceived belief is neither scientific nor honest, but understandable in the light if the antagonism that greets anyone who dares question the ToE.

Then what is a "kind", if it isn't equal to species? If it's equal to plants that are able to produce fertile offspring, then we've already observed plants becoming new "kinds", so I'm guessing "kind" must be wider to not debunk creationism.

Many species change very little over time, yes, because if there is no need for adaption, then there will be less evolution. Species don't appear suddenly most of the time, it's just that some of the gaps aren't always found. Fossilization is quite rare. You also need to define what you would call species, because in many cases we see a clear gradual change in the fossil record. Have you looked at the fossil records yourself or do you base your knowledge on what others have said about them?

You're clearly misrepresenting the idea of science. It is not to create dogma and hold on to it, no matter what. If evolution was proven false, it would be rejected. Could you show me some good examples of fossils debunking evolution? (Remember: Keep it to plants)

If paleontologists aren't qualified for the job of paleontology, then who are?


IWhy would that make no sense? If God created plants, as the Bible teaches, it would not be strange that at one point in the fossil record there were no flowers. And yes, God apparently did create new kinds of plants over a long creative period, called a "day" in Genesis. (Geneis 1:11-13)

There are several issues with the long day explanation of Genesis. The amount of time we're talking about for the existence of the plants in the fossil record to be correct is way too long for plants to survive without the sun, even if enough heat and water was provided. As the sun was created after plants, we've got ourselves a big issue. We also see animals during the same time as plants, before flowers, which further debunks the creation story.
 
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dust1n

Zindīq
IWhy would that make no sense? If God created plants, as the Bible teaches, it would not be strange that at one point in the fossil record there were no flowers. And yes, God apparently did create new kinds of plants over a long creative period, called a "day" in Genesis. (Geneis 1:11-13)

How long is a day in Genesis, just for reference?
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
One just has to look at all the new "kinds" that appear in the plant world on a regular basis to see that this doesn't support creationism.

For example modern Bananas can't reproduce with wild Bananas... so here we have an example of humans creating a "new kind" through selective breeding. :jiggy:

wa:do
 
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