"Creationists demand equal airtime on Neil deGrasse Tyson’s ‘Cosmos’ to provide ‘balance’"

[Saint Frankenstein]

Frank, if you will note, I said nothing about what you, or they, _do_ with those beliefs. Most folks who hold to creationism are not involved in politics, therefore, they are not "trying to feed people falsehoods under the veneer of truth."

I am commenting SOLELY on what beliefs people hold.

I'm talking about groups and people like Answers in Genesis who wish to teach their religious views as being scientific. No, I personally don't have any respect for those types. They can believe that all they want, I'm not suggesting forced reeducation. I just don't respect those beliefs.

 

[Quintessence]

Oh, I can be nice to them, as long as we avoid certain topics. I don't prefer to associate with such people, however. I spent enough time in fringe conspiracy circles and I'm still trying to heal my mind from that lunacy.

That's fair. I think it's important that we all try to get along with each other and respect differences, regardless of how "out there" the other person's position might seem. Personally, unless a position or behavior is actually dangerous, I really don't care what "crazy" things others think. I do not regard YECs to be anywhere close to that dangerous category. Now, anti-vaccination conspiracy theorists whose antics have demonstrably harmed human health? Even during my more misanthropic moments, I have trouble tolerating that one.

 

[freethinker44]

Well, I suppose if you don't mind being a dick to people, then you shouldn't?

That's the alternative to granting everyone a certain baseline level of respect and dignity, you know: being a dick to people. Basic respect doesn't mean you agree with them. It doesn't mean you have to let them into your science classrooms. It doesn't even mean you have to listen to them. It means you have enough respect for human diversity that you can have basic, courteous, social interactions with anyone and not condemn others simply for not being you. Shocking, I know.

I would say their beliefs are a cancer to the human species, the whole world actually. They are not only content with living their lives in an intellectual void, they seem to have a need to poison our children's minds too.

If they just wanted to bask in their ignorant bliss without bothering anyone else, sure more power to them, but they won't stop until everyone is as ignorant as them and one way they try to accomplish that is by abusing not only their children, but everyone's children, and I truly do believe teaching creationism to children is child abuse and if it were up to me they would be charged with abuse and their children be removed from their care.

That said, why should I respect a cancerous poison trying to destroy my children?

 

[technomage]

I'm talking about groups and people like Answers in Genesis who wish to teach their religious views as being scientific. No, I personally don't have any respect for those types. They can believe that all they want, I'm not suggesting forced reeducation. I just don't respect those beliefs.

Neither Quintessence not I recommended respecting their beliefs. Unless I'm _mightily_ mistaken, the context was treating the _people_ with ... how did Quint put it? "Manners, decency, tact, kindness, and understanding?"

 

[technomage]

I would say their beliefs are a cancer to the human species, the whole world actually. They are not only content with living their lives in an intellectual void, they seem to have a need to poison our children's minds too.

If they just wanted to bask in their ignorant bliss without bothering anyone else, sure more power to them, but they won't stop until everyone is as ignorant as them and one way they try to accomplish that is by abusing not only their children, but everyone's children, and I truly do believe teaching creationism to children is child abuse and if it were up to me they would be charged with abuse and their children be removed from their care.

That said, why should I respect a cancerous poison trying to destroy my children?

And Freethinker proves, once again, that it IS possible to overstate your case.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Neither Quintessence not I recommended respecting their beliefs. Unless I'm _mightily_ mistaken, the context was treating the _people_ with ... how did Quint put it? "Manners, decency, tact, kindness, and understanding?"

Sounds like there was some misunderstanding here. I didn't say to treat them disrespectfully, like spitting in their face or anything. I just don't see why I should respect their beliefs.

 

[technomage]

Sounds like there was some misunderstanding here.

Quite possible. As far as respecting their beliefs, I'm right their with you--I hold as much respect for Creationist ideas as I do for Flat Earther ideas.

But if we cannot respect the _people_, even that little bit of courtesy that we tend to give people just for being on the same planet in the interest of making social interactions a bit smoother, then we're just making grief for ourselves. That was the point of view I was coming from (and that it _looked like_ you were disagreeing with).

 

[Quintessence]

That said, why should I respect a cancerous poison trying to destroy my children?

Perhaps because someone, somewhere, regards your position as a cancerous poison and wants to wipe you off the face of the planet, too. And perhaps, if we quit thinking such murderous and genocidal thoughts we might be better off as a species.

Oh, my gods! Peaceful coexistence and tolerance! What a shocking and possibly naively idealistic concept!

But sure, attempt to crush them if you want and declare cultural genocide. Do not be surprised when those we disrespect fight for their survival, because they will. I find it prudent to choose one's battles carefully and for the magnitude of the response to match the magnitude of the threat. I feel your position has a very large mismatch between threat response and threat magnitude. Dear gods, I'd think you were talking about child slavery or child prostitution or something with the graveness of the comparison. It's ridiculous, sir.

 

[freethinker44]

And Freethinker proves, once again, that it IS possible to overstate your case.

Yeah, I try to avoid ambiguity when possible.

 

[technomage]

Yeah, I try to avoid ambiguity when possible.

Next time, embrace the ambiguity and eschew the hyperbole.

Read Quintessence's response--it's especially relevant.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

That's fair. I think it's important that we all try to get along with each other and respect differences, regardless of how "out there" the other person's position might seem. Personally, unless a position or behavior is actually dangerous, I really don't care what "crazy" things others think. I do not regard YECs to be anywhere close to that dangerous category. Now, anti-vaccination conspiracy theorists whose antics have demonstrably harmed human health? Even during my more misanthropic moments, I have trouble tolerating that one.

Oh, yeah. I think that anti-vaccine nuts should have their kids taken from them. They could die of illness.

 

[technomage]

Oh, yeah. I think that anti-vaccine nuts should have their kids taken from them. They could die of illness.

I won't go quite that far, but I definitely would not allow my kids or grand-kids to play with them.

 

[Quintessence]

Neither Quintessence not I recommended respecting their beliefs. Unless I'm _mightily_ mistaken, the context was treating the _people_ with ... how did Quint put it? "Manners, decency, tact, kindness, and understanding?"

Yeah, pretty much.

I respect YECs in the sense that I think anyone who has strong dedication to a cause has admirable courage. I respect YECs in the sense that they wish to preserve a way of life and set traditions that they value. So in a sense, I respect their beliefs and their right to hold to them. But by "respect" here, I do not mean agree with, much less a wish to support, and much much less acceptance of the minority who aggressively proselytize their position. Live and let live as much as possible; that's pretty much how I sit on things.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I won't go quite that far, but I definitely would not allow my kids or grand-kids to play with them.

I would. I put the health and safety of children over the "right" of parents to deny them those things.

 

[Quintessence]

I would. I put the health and safety of children over the "right" of parents to deny them those things.

I'd comment on this, except this'd be getting things massively off-topic... so...

:run:

 

[technomage]

I would. I put the health and safety of children over the "right" of parents to deny them those things.

In a perfect world, I would agree--but then again, in a perfect world, we wouldn't have anti-vaxers. In this world, parents have the right to choose health for their children as long as their decisions do not place the child in _immediate_ risk. Refusing a vaccine places the child at risk, but it's not immediate hazard.

If we took the long view of removing children for possible risk, how far do we go? Do we remove children who are allowed to play football? How about those who do youth martial arts? Perhaps we should forbid Jehovah's Witnesses from having kids because they don't believe in blood transfusions? Or maybe we should remove kids from parents who have hepatitis? How about the flu?

The state does have the authority to remove kids at immediate risk ... but that authority MUST be tempered by restrictions.

 

[technomage]

I'd comment on this, except this'd be getting things massively off-topic... so...

Ha! Being off-topic never frightened me!

THREAD DRIFT! It happens.

 

[freethinker44]

Next time, embrace the ambiguity and eschew the hyperbole.

Read Quintessence's response--it's especially relevant.

I have no apologies to give. I mean what I say and I say what I mean.

 

[freethinker44]

Oh, yeah. I think that anti-vaccine nuts should have their kids taken from them. They could die of illness.

I have an old coworker I'm friends with on facebook and he and his wife are anti-vaccine, and today he was complaining about being sick of his family being sick all the time. Hmm, I wonder why that might be?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I have an old coworker I'm friends with on facebook and he and his wife are anti-vaccine, and today he was complaining about being sick of his family being sick all the time. Hmm, I wonder why that might be?

Lol! What a joke! That's a case of people getting what they deserve, then.