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Creationists: Here's your chance

The_Evelyonian

Well, the "you had better be right about god" argument is inherently flawed and here's why.

The pantheon of deities created by man throughout the ages is simply so vast that there is no way to even be relatively sure that you've picked the right one. You could put your faith in Yahweh only to die and find out the Baal is the one true god and he's just as jealous as his old rival (Yahweh) was made out to be.

Well, no need to worry about Baal because Elijah took care of him by saying the God who answers by fire, he is God. The baal prophets cried out to baal and no answer. But then when Elijah came forward and prayed to his God, fire came down and consumed his sacrifice (while it was wet).

Plus, baal is POLYTHIESTIC god, that means FINITE. Yewhah is infinite. Therefore my God is bigger then baal. And the very fact that baal is finite, shows he could not have created space, since he just takes up space. This argument alone makes me not worry about baal.


There is absolutely no reason to pick the judeo-christian god over the others and say, "Ah, this one is the right one." The evidence for Yahweh's existence is just as flimsy as the evidence for all the other gods man has ever thought up.

Do you know the difference between polytheism and monotheism? I am assuming you do, but that you are making this argument anyway.


The "what if you're wrong" question simply falls apart in this light. What if I'm wrong about Yahweh? Well, what if you're wrong about Baal, Odin, Thor, Allah, Vishnu, Amun-Ra, Molech, Ahura Mazda, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

Based on what I said above, I think your argument would be better if you said ‘what if I’m wrong about Yahweh? Well, what if you’re wrong and there is NO God at all?’ I think that argument would be better.

Well, if there is no God at all, then I would have wasted my time serving him, ALTHOUGH, not all of it would have been a waste of time, since a lot of it was pleasant.

Anyway, if you’re wrong, you will pay for it in the afterlife, if I am wrong, I will pay for it in this life by having wasted some of my time being about his business.

You see the predicament we are both in?
 

The_Evelyonian

Old-School Member
The_Evelyonian



Well, no need to worry about Baal because Elijah took care of him by saying the God who answers by fire, he is God. The baal prophets cried out to baal and no answer. But then when Elijah came forward and prayed to his God, fire came down and consumed his sacrifice (while it was wet).

Plus, baal is POLYTHIESTIC god, that means FINITE. Yewhah is infinite. Therefore my God is bigger then baal. And the very fact that baal is finite, shows he could not have created space, since he just takes up space. This argument alone makes me not worry about baal.




Do you know the difference between polytheism and monotheism? I am assuming you do, but that you are making this argument anyway.




Based on what I said above, I think your argument would be better if you said ‘what if I’m wrong about Yahweh? Well, what if you’re wrong and there is NO God at all?’ I think that argument would be better.

Well, if there is no God at all, then I would have wasted my time serving him, ALTHOUGH, not all of it would have been a waste of time, since a lot of it was pleasant.

Anyway, if you’re wrong, you will pay for it in the afterlife, if I am wrong, I will pay for it in this life by having wasted some of my time being about his business.

You see the predicament we are both in?

Your faith in the veracity of the bible is touching.

One thing you might want to know though is that Yahweh was originally part of a polytheistic pantheon as well.

It has traditionally been believed that monotheism was part of Israel’s original covenant with Yahweh on Mount Sinai, and the idolatry criticized by the prophets was due to Israel’s backsliding. But during the 20th century it became increasingly recognised that the Bible’s presentation raises a number of questions: Why do the Ten Commandments declare that there should be no other gods “before Me” (Yahweh), if there are no other gods at all? Why do the Israelites sing at the crossing of the Red Sea that “there is no god like you, O Yahweh”, implying that other gods exist? These observations eventually overthrew the belief that Israel had always worshipped no other god but Yahweh.
Israelite gods other than Yahweh in fact appear frequently, both in the bible and the archaeological record. Respectful references to the goddess Asherah or her symbol, for example, as part of the worship of Yahweh, are found in the eighth century inscriptions from Kuntillet ‘Ajrud and Khirbet el-Qom, and the gods Resheph and Deber appear without criticism in Habakkuk 3:5 as part of the military retinue of Yahweh. Similarly, the “hosts of heaven” are mentioned without criticism in 1_Kings 22:19 and Zephaniah 1:5, and the god El is continually identified with Yahweh.
Israel inherited polytheism from late first-millennium Canaan, and Canaanite religion in turn had its roots in the religion of second-millennium Ugarit. In the 2nd millennium, polytheism was expressed through the concepts of the divine council and the divine family, a single entity with four levels: the chief god and his wife (El and Asherah); the seventy divine children or “stars of El” (including Baal, Astarte, Anat, probably Resheph, as well as the sun-goddess Shapshu and the moon-god Yerak); the head helper of the divine household, Kothar wa-Hasis; and the servants of the divine household, including the messenger-gods who would later appear as the “angels” of the Hebrew bible.
In the earliest stage Yahweh was one of the seventy children of El, each of whom was the patron deity of one of the seventy nations. This is illustrated by the Dead Sea Scrolls and Septuagint texts of Deuteronomy 32:8-9, in which El, as the head of the divine assembly, gives member of the divine family a nation of his own, “according to the number of the divine sons”: Israel is the portion of Yahweh. The later Masoretic text, evidently uncomfortable with the polytheism expressed by the phrase, altered it to “according to the number of the children of Israel”
Between the eighth to the sixth centuries El became identified with Yahweh, Yahweh-El became the husband of the goddess Asherah, and the other gods and the divine messengers gradually became mere expressions of Yahweh’s power. Yahweh is cast in the role of the Divine King ruling over all the other deities, as in Psalm 29:2, where the “sons of God” are called upon to worship Yahweh; and as Ezekiel 8-10 suggests, the Temple itself became Yahweh’s palace, populated by those in his retinue.
It is in this period that the earliest clear monotheistic statements appear in the Bible, for example in the apparently seventh-century Deuteronomy 4:35, 39, 1 Samuel 2:2, 2 Samuel 7:22, 2 Kings 19:15, 19 (= Isaiah 37:16, 20), and Jeremiah 16:19, 20 and the sixth-century portion of Isaiah 43:10-11, 44:6, 8, 45:5-7, 14, 18, 21, and 46:9. Because many of the passages involved appear in works associated with either Deuteronomy, the Deuteronomistic History (Joshua through Kings) or in Jeremiah, most recent scholarly treatments have suggested that a Deuteronomistic movement of this period developed the idea of monotheism as a response to the religious issues of the time.
The first factor behind this development involves changes in Israel’s social structure. At Ugarit, social identity was strongest at the level of the family: legal documents, for example, were often made between the sons of one family and the sons of another. Ugarit’s religion, with its divine family headed by El and Asherah, mirrored this human reality. The same was true in ancient Israel through most of the monarchy - for example, the story of Achan in Joshua 8 suggests an extended family as the major social unit. However, the family lineages went through traumatic changes beginning in the eighth century due to major social stratification, followed by Assyrian incursions. In the seventh and sixth centuries, we begin to see expressions of individual identity (Deuteronomy 26:16; Jeremiah 31:29-30; Ezekiel 18). A culture with a diminished lineage system, deteriorating over a long period from the ninth or eighth century onward, less embedded in traditional family patrimonies, might be more predisposed both to hold the individual accountable for his behavior, and to see an individual deity accountable for the cosmos. In short, the rise of the individual as the basic social unit led to the rise of a single god replacing a divine family.
The second major factor was the rise of the neo-Assyrian and neo-Babylonian empires. As long as Israel was, from its own perspective, part of a community of similar small nations, it made sense to see the Israelite pantheon on par with the other nations, each one with its own patron god - the picture described with Deuteronomy 32:8-9. The assumption behind this worldview was that each nation was as powerful as its patron god. However, the neo-Assyrian conquest of the northern kingdom in ca. 722 challenged this, for if the neo-Assyrian empire were so powerful, so must be its god; and conversely, if Israel could be conquered (and later Judah, c. 586), it implied that Yahweh in turn was a minor divinity. The crisis was met by separating the heavenly power and earthly kingdoms. Even though Assyria and Babylon were so powerful, the new monotheistic thinking in Israel reasoned, this did not mean that the god of Israel and Judah was weak. Assyria had not succeeded because of the power of its god Marduk; it was Yahweh who was using Assyria to punish and purify the one nation which Yahweh had chosen.
By the post-Exilic period, full monotheism had emerged: Yahweh was the sole God, not just of Israel, but of the whole world. If the nations were tools of Yahweh, then the new king who would come to redeem Israel might not be a Judean as taught in older literature (e.g. Psalm 2). Now, even a foreigner such as Cyrus the Persian could serve as the Lord’s anointed (Isaiah 44:28, 45:1). One god stood behind all the world’s history.
 

bossbozz

Member
You can’t be that sure, because I am 99% sure that I am right, so how can you be 99% sure that you are right? So since I am 99% sure that I am right, what do you say to that? How can you be 99% sure?

And here is a side question, how are you 99% sure that there is NO God? Referring to the God I believe in, not this pink unicorn nonsense.

What are you suggesting here, that because you are 99% sure then that means I can only be 1% sure?

I am so sure because I see no reason for a god, to me it's an outdated concept that holds back humanities progress to discovering the true origins of life, the universe and everything.

I did not say I know a lot about aliens and zombies. Aliens based on the images the world thinks of, such as they have a body, head, arms, all of that is FINITE. Now if you want to say the alien is infinite, well then your describing my God, just calling him or labeling him as an alien, which I don’t mind in that case, since the definition is understood.

How do you know god is infinite? In what way is he infinite? Is that infinite like a loop with no beginning and no end or infinite as in he started from a point but has no end?

Infinity exists based on intuition and based on logic. If hypothetically you shot an arrow up into space, and it kept going past our solar system, past our milky way and outside it and then kept going and going and going, and let’s say it did not TOUCH any stars or planets or debris, would it keep going forever, or would it HIT a dead end? Intuition tells us it would not hit a dead end, BUT lets SAY it did hit a dead end, that would only PROVE that there is something SOLID stopping the arrow from going further, therefore that solid thing is taking UP space BEYOND where the arrow can reach. Therefore, the solid thing goes further into infinity, and the space inside it, where the arrow is, is like a bubble. Now that being said, your defying logic when you say there is no infinity.

Also mathematical is not theory, numbers can keep going infinitely. We just cannot count that long of course.

You can't really discuss intuition and logic then use the example of a hypothetical arrow that defies not only the laws of physics but also space and time itself to try and prove your point. The arrow would never reach the edge of the universe because it would travel around in an orbit around the universe due to gravity, such is the nature of the universe. If we are going to discuss cosmology then we at least need to keep it within the framework of the fundamental principals of the universe.

You are right that you could never count to infinity because infinity is not a number, it is a mathematical concept. The letter O is infinite in theory if you travelled around it in an endless loop yet here it is sat on your screen taking up just a few pixels. I'm afraid it is a theoretical concept as is so much of maths.

Many creationists struggle with the difference between an idea and a theory and so try to suggest that the idea of creationism should carry equal weight to the theory of evolution.

Interesting, just curious, what would your suggestions be to him?

I don't know, I tend to think on my feet. If he had any special interest in humans then I'm sure he'd already be aware of all of humanities problems and issues, having me point them out would be rather like telling someone who's car has broken down that their car has broken down.

During his time on earth? Are you referring to Jesus?

Yes that time... not the time he popped down as Fred Smith for a quick holiday in the Bahamas. :sarcastic

If he said he thinks he is doing and running things just great, then asked you what you thought of that, what would you say?

Also, you will have your day to ask him all this, but, he will ask you just as many questions if not more, and you will have to answer all of them. You will have your day in his court room.

I'd have to disagree that he's running things at all. Why would I have a day in court, if he is all knowing then he wouldn't need to question me at all... he'd already know the answers and any judgment would be a forgone conclusion which would make this court of his somewhat of a mockery.


I gauss I don’t understand why you’re so amazed at it. And I don’t understand how you are 99% sure there is no God. I don’t understand how you can be this sure?


I think 99% doesn't convey how sure I am as that leaves 1 in 100 chance that a god does exist. I'd say there is a chance of less than 1 in Grahams number that a god exists. I see no evidence or need for one to exist and furthermore if god does exist then I very much doubt that the human race would be much more to him than a curiosity of the universe. I mean if you had the entirety of space and time to marvel at why would you care so much about the behavior of one primitive species? I think more likely it was the self importance of man created the concept of being created by a divine being and the promise of an afterlife.
 
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The_Evelyonian

Old-School Member
What are you suggesting here, that because you are 99% sure then that means I can only be 1% sure?

I don't really get this either.

Jolly, you can be 99% certain that god exists.

I can be 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% sure that he doesn't.

I don't see how our certainties would (or could) affect each other's or anyone else's.
 
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tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
This view is foolish.

Again, why not believe that rabbits can come magically out of a hat from nowhere?
Sounds about as logical as an magical eternal deity that created the universe by its mere words.


No, a deity creating it is not magic, it’s supernatural creation. NOTHING doing it, THAT is magic and a stupid view.
Supernatural=Magic. And I agree. Believing in magic is a stupid view.



No it does not show that cause is not necessary. It shows people don’t understand everything about the world yet. If you say it eliminates magic well no it doesn’t. If nothing causes it, and it just comes out of nowhere, well that is MAGIC.
Jolly, you sound like a backwoods hillbilly seeing his first moving picture.
IT'S MAGIC!!!:rolleyes:



I want proof, perhaps an article or something SHOWING that quantum mechanics show that cause is not necessary? Give me that, I will read it and respond.
Well, you might want to start with something easy,
Quantum Physics - Overview of quantum physics




Just because they don’t know what the cause is yet that must mean there is no cause? Ok, you are assuming there is no cause; science has not proven there is no cause.
Once again, science does not PROVE negatives.



No it has not shown this, this is assumed.
Keep studying.



God creating it is not magic, since it’s coming from somewhere (namely God) but if it came from nowhere, well, that is magic.



All things EXCEPT God need a cause. There cannot be an infinite regression of causes otherwise it would either take forever for events to happen or there would be no motion.
For a man who insists of proof, you sure find it easy to excuse your supernatural/magic God from the very laws you insist rule everything.



Those physicists don’t KNOW there is NO cause, they just don’t KNOW what the cause IS. That is how it is. In other words, they don’t know if there is NO cause and they don’t know if there is a cause or what the cause is, they don’t KNOW either way. But it’s more credible to say there is a cause, they just don’t know yet what it is. That to me sounds better, for it is foolish to believe there is no cause, that defies the foundation of science.

And even if they did find out there is NO cause (which they have not found that out) then the next question would be “why is there no cause?”
And science is asking those questions and more. They just refuse to insert supernatural magical causes into the answers they have not found yet.



No, wrong, but even if you were right, that just means you ignore science unless it seems to match your preconceptions.
Pot, meet kettle....



No, no, no, no, no, you misunderstood. The video I watched, the scientist was not saying there is only 5 views on origins, he was talking about quantum mechanics and how when certain small particles fly all over the place, then when you look at them, they STOP, then when you look away, they fly again. THAT is the issue he was talking about. He was not mentioning the 5 views on origins.
Ah, then the five views that you insist the world conform to are your own.

(By the way, he was talking about the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. A principle that supports the uncaused probability of the actions of particles)

Can you explain to me the predictability of a particle when observed?
I changes! But can you predict the action it will take? No, You can't.
Is this magic?
No.
You see, an actual cause must have a predictable action.
This is why Newton stated that every action has an equal and opposite reaction.
However, at the Quantum level, we do not see this. The Heisenberg Principle is in direct contrast to Newtons Laws. Yet it is an observable phenomenon that you yourself have used as an example. Without predictability, cause is unnecessary.

When you hit a nail with a hammer, you have a predictable action. the nail is driven further into the wood. At the quantum level, the "nail" could go into the "wood", or the "nail" could move to a different spot in the "wood". Or the "nail" could disappear altogether, only to reappear days later imbedded in the "hammers" head.
And at the quantum level, the "nail" may do all this without any action from the "hammer" at all.
Again, without predictability, one cannot posit a cause.




Don’t promote a double standard to me now. By you saying there is no cause, I will tell you that you should make an attempt to find out how this universe really works.
I never said there is no cause, I said no cause is necessary.
As for finding out how the universe works that is what I constantly strive for. I just refuse to insert supernatural magical causes derived from reveled revelation into as yet unanswered questions. Nor do I ignore scientific findings that do not match my personal religious beliefs. You see, that would be being dishonest to both myself and those I am responsible for.
Intentional ignorance will only hold mankind back.
 

johnhanks

Well-Known Member
I am just trying to show you that SOMETHING has to be a FIRST cause.
And tumbleweed and others have been doing a sterling job trying to teach you that this is not so.
Well, for one, there is evidence that Jesus rose from the dead (that is a distinct issue from this one we are now talking about) and two, IF I am right, that places you into a hard corner to where you have to make a crucial gambling choice.
You are still missing the point, I think. All your 'first cause' argument could possibly achieve, even if it were valid, is that the universe has a first cause which we do not understand. There is nothing in the argument that requires the so-called first cause to be sentient or to have purpose, let alone to have awareness of or interest in human beings.

Your 'evidence that Jesus rose from the dead' comes from a book written for the express purpose of convincing people that this was so; in fact he is just one of many killed-and-resurrected deities, which were ten a penny in ancient mythology. You are obviously free to believe that your particular godling-of-choice is the real one and all these others were fakes, but your first cause argument does nothing to substantiate that belief.
 
The_Evelyonian
One thing you might want to know though is that Yahweh was originally part of a polytheistic pantheon as well.

No he wasn’t, your quote is not sufficient evidence of that, but is mostly interpretive speculation. All those other gods according to the bible were NOT real gods. To say otherwise, is a twist of the scriptures. And just because Israel worshiped Yahweh along with some false gods does not mean Yahweh came from the idea of other gods. And just because the bible mentions some of the gods without criticism in certain passages, does not mean it does not criticize them elsewhere. For the passages that speak of them without criticism have a different message to convey at that time. All of their speculation is a big twist. When God says have no other gods before me, that is not implying there is other REAL gods, that is only implying that God realized that these IDEAS were out there. That’s all that means. Also about the children of Israel or the children of God, that says nothing. Yea, Israel was the children of God, for God created them. Ok, so what if it is children of Israel or children of God?

The type of evidence I will want to see is find me a quote somewhere, from ancient literature that says “Yahweh the God of Israel was derived from the idea of other gods”. And even if you find me that, STILL I won’t be convinced because it may come from Israel’s enemies trying to make Yahweh look bad. However if you find me a source coming from someone who was an actual Israelite, from ancient times quoting something like this, THEN that would be a little more impressive, but even with that I would not be convinced since other Israelites, apparently the prophets in the Old Testament DISAGREE.

So for one, your quote is all interpretive speculation and two it has nothing to do with the question I asked you. Question was

Based on what I said above, I think your argument would be better if you said ‘what if I’m wrong about Yahweh? Well, what if you’re wrong and there is NO God at all?’ I think that argument would be better.

Well, if there is no God at all, then I would have wasted my time serving him, ALTHOUGH, not all of it would have been a waste of time, since a lot of it was pleasant.

Anyway, if you’re wrong, you will pay for it in the afterlife, if I am wrong, I will pay for it in this life by having wasted some of my time being about his business.

You see the predicament we are both in?
 
Bossbozz
What are you suggesting here, that because you are 99% sure then that means I can only be 1% sure?

That’s right, absolutely. You can only be 1% sure if I am 99% sure. Because you see, we BOTH cannot be 99% sure, that is an absurdity. Therefore, since I am 99% sure, you are 1% sure. Looks like my view wins based on that.

:D


I am so sure because I see no reason for a god,

I am so sure (99% sure) because I see TONS of reasons FOR a God.

to me it's an outdated concept that holds back humanities progress to discovering the true origins of life, the universe and everything.

This is wrong and is also a misunderstanding. The bible and the biblical God is not against doing science and discovering things. He is only against doing these things in a dishonest way. And dishonest dealings. So, God does not HOLD back progress. Not one bit. Actually many believers in God who have been scientists discovered a lot of things and helped make progress. Isaac Newton is an example.

If you want to say God holds back progress, well believing in either one of the other 4 views I mentioned would also hold back progress, accept the “I don’t know” position. But this is not true, because one can believe in God and still make progress and investigation.

How do you know god is infinite?

Because if God creates space, as we know it to be, then he has to be bigger than space, that is infinitely BIG.

In what way is he infinite? Is that infinite like a loop with no beginning and no end or infinite as in he started from a point but has no end?

Both, he is infinite in existence and infinitely big. He was always there, had no beginning, and he is very big. He is a giant. Bigger then jack and the been stock’s giant. :D

And bigger then Baal and all the polytheistic gods ;) And bigger than the pink unicorn.

You can't really discuss intuition and logic then use the example of a hypothetical arrow that defies not only the laws of physics but also space and time itself to try and prove your point.

Ok, forget the arrow, I am making an argument. Let’s assume for the moment one can live forever and they have a space ship they can fly in forever. So they fly upward and keep going strait, outside the milky way, they go farther and farther away, and so they see the milky way become very small in their perception now, so small it looks like the size of a penny. Now they keep going further and further, they do not hit debris, or planets or other galaxies. There monitor in there spaceship shows they are going PERFECTLY STRAIT and have not turned even slightly, and if they do, there monitor warns them that they have. So then they go strait, all the time. So if any orbits capture them, the monitor tells them so. And so then, they fly away from it and keep going strait. And they keep going and going. Do you think that if they went on forever, they would HIT an invisible wall at anytime? If you say YES, that would only mean that the solid thing, whether seen or invisible is taking up space that the ship cannot get into. The space where the ship is at, is then a bubble. If you say NO, that would imply space would be infinitely big. Although there can be different forms of space.

The arrow would never reach the edge of the universe because it would travel around in an orbit around the universe due to gravity, such is the nature of the universe.

AHUH! Are you then saying there is room to move outside the orbit? Just the arrow cannot get outside the orbit? Heh, heh?

If we are going to discuss cosmology then we at least need to keep it within the framework of the fundamental principals of the universe.

You know that can’t happen. If we stick to PURE science without using any theories, and philosophy, our discussion will basically be NOTHING to it. Now could you answer my argument I made? Cosmology has not shown that there is a invisible wall to the universe. Please, answer my argument?
 
You are right that you could never count to infinity because infinity is not a number, it is a mathematical concept.

Numbers can go on for infinity, that is not a theory, that is a fact, but we just cannot count that far, since we don’t live for infinity, and it would be pretty boring counting that long anyway. And of course the person counting would have to name a few more numbers as he progresses.

The letter O is infinite in theory if you travelled around it in an endless loop yet here it is sat on your screen taking up just a few pixels.

I’m not talking about the number 0. I am talking about 1.2.3.4.5.6.7.8.9.10.11.12.13 --------- and on and on for infinity. That is not theoretical.

I'm afraid it is a theoretical concept as is so much of maths.

Blah, not so.


Many creationists struggle with the difference between an idea and a theory and so try to suggest that the idea of creationism should carry equal weight to the theory of evolution.

It is just as much a POWERFUL theory as evolution, but I would go a step farther and say not only should it be given equal weight, it should be given MORE weight, since it is the MOST plausible ( at least it is to me, I see it as being the most plausible). Anybody that tells me that evolution holds more weight, I find that absolutely AMAZING that they say that. It makes my jaw drop to the floor and my eyes look perplexed at them.

I don't know, I tend to think on my feet. If he had any special interest in humans then I'm sure he'd already be aware of all of humanities problems and issues, having me point them out would be rather like telling someone who's car has broken down that their car has broken down.

Lol, right….Well, what if he told you that he had a purpose for allowing humanities problems to occur? And then told you what they were, and if you wanted to know the purposes on a case by case basis, you would ask him about a certain case and he would tell you his purpose in allowing a problem. If he did that for you, what would your response be?

Yes that time... not the time he popped down as Fred Smith for a quick holiday in the Bahamas.

Ok, well this one is easy to answer then. The reason why Jesus did not contribute to science when he was here on earth is because he did not come to earth for that purpose. He came to give us a holy example and teach us his ways and to die for our sins and set up his salvation plan.

You made that too easy for me. Come on now. Plus, he did know some science when he spoke his parables. For example he says seed thrown on the path way or rock or thorns is not good, it has to go in the good soil. Ok, that is some science of agriculture, is it not?

I'd have to disagree that he's running things at all. Why would I have a day in court, if he is all knowing then he wouldn't need to question me at all... he'd already know the answers and any judgment would be a forgone conclusion which would make this court of his somewhat of a mockery.

Well the point of his courtroom is not because he don’t KNOW your heart and your life’s actions and beliefs, the point is you think your right and he is wrong, so he wants to give you a fair trial and allow you to prove your case. It’s like sadam husien, when they caught him, they KNEW beyond a doubt he was an evil man, but they still gave him a fair trial. It’s the same principle. God is going to ask you why you think you should not go to hell. Then you have to be prepared to give him an answer. What would your answer be, just out of curiosity? :D

I think 99% doesn't convey how sure I am as that leaves 1 in 100 chance that a god does exist. I'd say there is a chance of less than 1 in Grahams number that a god exists. I see no evidence or need for one to exist and furthermore if god does exist then I very much doubt that the human race would be much more to him than a curiosity of the universe. I mean if you had the entirety of space and time to marvel at why would you care so much about the behavior of one primitive species? I think more likely it was the self importance of man created the concept of being created by a divine being and the promise of an afterlife.

No, because I am 99.99% sure, so you cannot say that you’re MORE than 99% sure. Only one of us can say this.

Also I realize you figure there is no evidence for God to exist, but now I am curious why you say there is no NEED for one to exist?

Also your assertion for why man thought about God and the afterlife, was out of self importance is you assuming to perceive a correct view of mans motivations.
 
The_Evelyonian

I don't really get this either.

Jolly, you can be 99% certain that god exists.

I can be 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% sure that he doesn't.

I don't see how our certainties would (or could) affect each other's or anyone else's.

All I am saying is that ONE of us cannot be TRULY sure to the point of 99.99%. We both cannot be THIS sure, only ONE of us can be this sure. So that means I am this sure and you are not. :p

Willamena

I can't believe somebody actually said that.

Why can’t you believe it?

Tumbleweed41

Sounds about as logical as an magical eternal deity that created the universe by its mere words.

Here is why this is incorrect. Nothing creating something is magical, because nothing is doing it. God creating something with his word, is not magical because at least God is SOMETHING and his WORD is something. His word is the SEED sort of speak, and he takes the picture in his mind and then projects it through his word and it becomes a created reality. That is not magical, but creative supernaturalism. The supernatural is different the magical. The supernatural is the natural not fully comprehended or experienced.

Supernatural=Magic. And I agree. Believing in magic is a stupid view.

So that means you do believe there is a cause at the quantum level?

Well, you might want to start with something easy,
Quantum Physics - Overview of quantum physics

I don’t understand from the article where the proof is that says at the quantum level there is no cause for anything that happens?

Ah, then the five views that you insist the world conform to are your own.

(By the way, he was talking about the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. A principle that supports the uncaused probability of the actions of particles)

Can you explain to me the predictability of a particle when observed?
I changes! But can you predict the action it will take? No, You can't.
Is this magic?
No.
You see, an actual cause must have a predictable action.
This is why Newton stated that every action has an equal and opposite reaction.
However, at the Quantum level, we do not see this. The Heisenberg Principle is in direct contrast to Newtons Laws. Yet it is an observable phenomenon that you yourself have used as an example. Without predictability, cause is unnecessary.

When you hit a nail with a hammer, you have a predictable action. the nail is driven further into the wood. At the quantum level, the "nail" could go into the "wood", or the "nail" could move to a different spot in the "wood". Or the "nail" could disappear altogether, only to reappear days later imbedded in the "hammers" head.
And at the quantum level, the "nail" may do all this without any action from the "hammer" at all.
Again, without predictability, one cannot posit a cause.

Just because you people make WRONG predictions, does not mean there is now no cause because they made a wrong prediction.

Plus, at the quantum level, maybe God is messing with the scientists heads? Perhaps God makes himself unpredictable.

I never said there is no cause, I said no cause is necessary.

If you never said there is no cause, then in essence you are saying there IS a cause, and if there IS a cause, then a cause IS necessary.


As for finding out how the universe works that is what I constantly strive for. I just refuse to insert supernatural magical causes derived from reveled revelation into as yet unanswered questions. Nor do I ignore scientific findings that do not match my personal religious beliefs. You see, that would be being dishonest to both myself and those I am responsible for.
Intentional ignorance will only hold mankind back.

If you’re interested in finding the real cause or answers, why do you contradict that with your next breath by saying no cause is necessary?

You are still missing the point, I think. All your 'first cause' argument could possibly achieve, even if it were valid, is that the universe has a first cause which we do not understand. There is nothing in the argument that requires the so-called first cause to be sentient or to have purpose, let alone to have awareness of or interest in human beings.

Yes the first cause has to have a mind and intent. The reason why is because, well mindless energy does not have any knowledge that the circle of eternity has to be broken in order to make something begin. Therefore intelligence is the most plausible.


Your 'evidence that Jesus rose from the dead' comes from a book written for the express purpose of convincing people that this was so;

Oh, hold on there, it comes from MANY ancient writings, and that classifies as historic corroboration, evidence. And then even more ancient writings outside the bibles independent writings.

Why would the apostles die for a KNOWN lie?

in fact he is just one of many killed-and-resurrected deities, which were ten a penny in ancient mythology. You are obviously free to believe that your particular godling-of-choice is the real one and all these others were fakes, but your first cause argument does nothing to substantiate that belief.

There is a big difference between Jesus story and ancient mythology. Any stories before Christ hardly compare with his at all, and there are no TRUE resurrections of any gods BODIES before Christ. Also after Christ, there are stories, but that is AFTER him. So any borrowing would have come from Christ story and not the other way around.

Plus again, why would the apostles die for a known lie?
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
Here is why this is incorrect. Nothing creating something is magical, because nothing is doing it. God creating something with his word, is not magical because at least God is SOMETHING and his WORD is something. His word is the SEED sort of speak, and he takes the picture in his mind and then projects it through his word and it becomes a created reality. That is not magical, but creative supernaturalism. The supernatural is different the magical. The supernatural is the natural not fully comprehended or experienced.
There you go again insinuating that I have given some creative power to the concept of "nothing"

Lets try again....
No...Cause...Is...Necessary.
Your magical deity and his creative voice is not necessary.

As for supernatural. Supernatural is a belief that things can happen beyond natural means. Beyond natural laws. Miracles, spells, divination, astrology, curses, seances,
spirits, apparitions, angels, demons, sprites, fairies, gods and goddesses are all supernatural and magical beliefs. They are beyond natural laws, and therefor, magic.



So that means you do believe there is a cause at the quantum level?
None that I, of anyone else I know of, can show.
I don’t understand from the article where the proof is that says at the quantum level there is no cause for anything that happens?
Just because you people make WRONG predictions, does not mean there is now no cause because they made a wrong prediction.
It is obvious you do not understand. I do not know how to make this any clearer.
A cause has a predictable and repeatable resulting action.
Plus, at the quantum level, maybe God is messing with the scientists heads? Perhaps God makes himself unpredictable.
Like he planted genetic and fossil evidence of common descent? Hid the geological evidence of a worldwide flood? Planted cosmological evidence of billion year old stars?

You do not worship Jehovah, you worship Loki.



If you never said there is no cause, then in essence you are saying there IS a cause, and if there IS a cause, then a cause IS necessary.
Wrong.

No...Cause...Is...Necessary.


If you’re interested in finding the real cause or answers, why do you contradict that with your next breath by saying no cause is necessary?
There is no contradiction. Saying no cause is necessary is not the same as saying there is no cause.



Yes the first cause has to have a mind and intent. The reason why is because, well mindless energy does not have any knowledge that the circle of eternity has to be broken in order to make something begin. Therefore intelligence is the most plausible.
This circular reasoning may be plausible to you, but to educated minds, it is nonsense.




Oh, hold on there, it comes from MANY ancient writings, and that classifies as historic corroboration, evidence. And then even more ancient writings outside the bibles independent writings.
Yes, the Summarian tablets are a good source for many latter beliefs.

Why would the apostles die for a KNOWN lie?
Indeed. Why do martyrs die for many of of the beliefs contradictory to Christianity?
 

bossbozz

Member
Numbers can go on for infinity, that is not a theory, that is a fact, but we just cannot count that far, since we don’t live for infinity, and it would be pretty boring counting that long anyway. And of course the person counting would have to name a few more numbers as he progresses.

I’m not talking about the number 0. I am talking about 1.2.3.4.5.6.7.8.9.10.11.12.13 --------- and on and on for infinity. That is not theoretical.

Do you ever stop to question whether you are right? Do you ever look into things that you are challenged on to check your understanding? It would seem not. A simple look on Wikipedia would give you this in the first paragraph:

Infinity (symbolically represented by ∞) is a concept in mathematics and philosophy that refers to a quantity without bound or end. People have developed various ideas throughout history about the nature of infinity. In mathematics, infinity is defined in the context of set theory.

What's this... a mathematical concept... set theory? Yes you could theoretically count for infinity but you could never count to infinity as it is not a number, it is a concept.


It is just as much a POWERFUL theory as evolution, but I would go a step farther and say not only should it be given equal weight, it should be given MORE weight, since it is the MOST plausible ( at least it is to me, I see it as being the most plausible). Anybody that tells me that evolution holds more weight, I find that absolutely AMAZING that they say that. It makes my jaw drop to the floor and my eyes look perplexed at them.

No it's not a theory in the scientific sense, it's just an idea. A credible scientific theory allows for predictions to made on the basis of that theory and then have those predictions to be tested and proven, creationism just doesn't stand up to this test.



Lol, right….Well, what if he told you that he had a purpose for allowing humanities problems to occur? And then told you what they were, and if you wanted to know the purposes on a case by case basis, you would ask him about a certain case and he would tell you his purpose in allowing a problem. If he did that for you, what would your response be?

How do you know what he would ask or what his reasoning would be? This is all just fantasy in your head. I've think I've humoured you enough on this, now it's getting tiresome.

Ok, well this one is easy to answer then. The reason why Jesus did not contribute to science when he was here on earth is because he did not come to earth for that purpose. He came to give us a holy example and teach us his ways and to die for our sins and set up his salvation plan.

You made that too easy for me. Come on now. Plus, he did know some science when he spoke his parables. For example he says seed thrown on the path way or rock or thorns is not good, it has to go in the good soil. Ok, that is some science of agriculture, is it not?

Hardly a scientific breakthrough to note that seeds don't grow so well when thrown on rock compared to soil, I'm sure mankind had already figured that one out.



Well the point of his courtroom is not because he don’t KNOW your heart and your life’s actions and beliefs, the point is you think your right and he is wrong, so he wants to give you a fair trial and allow you to prove your case. It’s like sadam husien, when they caught him, they KNEW beyond a doubt he was an evil man, but they still gave him a fair trial. It’s the same principle. God is going to ask you why you think you should not go to hell. Then you have to be prepared to give him an answer. What would your answer be, just out of curiosity? :D

Is that what I think? Actually I think he doesn't exist so the concept of whether he is right or wrong doesn't come into it as it would be impossible for me to question the non existent actions of someone who doesn't exist. I'm not sure how you can compare me to Saddam Hussien? Are you suggesting that god knows beyond a doubt that I am evil? Careful here, you're starting to give yourself away.


That’s right, absolutely. You can only be 1% sure if I am 99% sure. Because you see, we BOTH cannot be 99% sure, that is an absurdity. Therefore, since I am 99% sure, you are 1% sure. Looks like my view wins based on that.

Maths certainly isn't your strong point, if you struggle with percentages then no wonder you can't understand that infinity is a concept.



Also I realize you figure there is no evidence for God to exist, but now I am curious why you say there is no NEED for one to exist?


Also your assertion for why man thought about God and the afterlife, was out of self importance is you assuming to perceive a correct view of mans motivations.


Why should there be a need for a god? Why would a god make stars thousands of light years away when humanity only needs one sun? Why make all the other planets and galaxies, is it just to make the night sky pretty? Where would we be in our understanding of the universe if we just accepted the bible as the truth. Would we still believe that physical illness is a curse of god for our sins or caused by demons and satan? Would hundreds of thousands of people be suffering unnecessarily from easily treatable illnesses because we never questioned the real causes of these things? To accept the existence of a god and the word of the bible (or whatever holy book) as the absolute truth would would mean an end to searching for the answers and an end to progress.

We use maths and science to explain the world around us, however I can see how someone who has an extremely limited understanding of science and maths (such as you have demonstrated) can struggle with understanding the true nature of these things and so finds it far simpler to think that it's all done supernaturally by god.
 

The_Evelyonian

Old-School Member
The_Evelyonian


No he wasn’t, your quote is not sufficient evidence of that, but is mostly interpretive speculation. All those other gods according to the bible were NOT real gods. To say otherwise, is a twist of the scriptures. And just because Israel worshiped Yahweh along with some false gods does not mean Yahweh came from the idea of other gods. And just because the bible mentions some of the gods without criticism in certain passages, does not mean it does not criticize them elsewhere. For the passages that speak of them without criticism have a different message to convey at that time. All of their speculation is a big twist. When God says have no other gods before me, that is not implying there is other REAL gods, that is only implying that God realized that these IDEAS were out there. That’s all that means. Also about the children of Israel or the children of God, that says nothing. Yea, Israel was the children of God, for God created them. Ok, so what if it is children of Israel or children of God?

The type of evidence I will want to see is find me a quote somewhere, from ancient literature that says “Yahweh the God of Israel was derived from the idea of other gods”. And even if you find me that, STILL I won’t be convinced because it may come from Israel’s enemies trying to make Yahweh look bad. However if you find me a source coming from someone who was an actual Israelite, from ancient times quoting something like this, THEN that would be a little more impressive, but even with that I would not be convinced since other Israelites, apparently the prophets in the Old Testament DISAGREE.

So for one, your quote is all interpretive speculation and two it has nothing to do with the question I asked you. Question was

Based on what I said above, I think your argument would be better if you said ‘what if I’m wrong about Yahweh? Well, what if you’re wrong and there is NO God at all?’ I think that argument would be better.

Well, if there is no God at all, then I would have wasted my time serving him, ALTHOUGH, not all of it would have been a waste of time, since a lot of it was pleasant.

Anyway, if you’re wrong, you will pay for it in the afterlife, if I am wrong, I will pay for it in this life by having wasted some of my time being about his business.

You see the predicament we are both in?

Okay, that's really enough. Now, even if the history of Yahwehism had somehow been forged by some unknown "enemies of Israel" (which is highly unlikely) it wouldn't change anything as you've yet to post any form of tangible evidence that your god even exists! All you've done is make assertion after assertion after assertion and then, when challenged on it, stick your fingers in your ears and shout "I'm right, you're wrong, la la la la la!"

This is a thread for evidence, not assertion, so either provide some form of tangible evidence that your god exists or get off the thread.
 
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johnhanks

Well-Known Member
Yes the first cause has to have a mind and intent. The reason why is because, well mindless energy does not have any knowledge that the circle of eternity has to be broken in order to make something begin. Therefore intelligence is the most plausible.
This is pure gibberish. All your 'first cause' argument could possibly establish, were it to be valid, is that the universe must have a first cause we do not understand. This 'breaking the circle of eternity' drivel is your own interpolation.
Oh, hold on there, [Jesus's resurrection] comes from MANY ancient writings...
Please quote from three non-biblical sources.
Why would the apostles die for a KNOWN lie?
People's willingness to die for a belief does not confirm the veracity of that belief.
 
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