Creationists: Here's your chance

[Jollybear]

Bossbozz

It's wrong because you meant to say EXCEPT? Surely if you were designed by god you would not be prone to make such basic syntax errors? I mean why wait a few hundred thousand years for your proudest creation to develop syntax checking technology when you could just wire one into the brain from the start?

Tell me why my sentence is wrong. The sentence is “everything is designed EXCEPT God”. Forget the nitpicking attitude and answer the question please. I am not interested in nit pickers and motive addressers, let’s get that cleared up. Just answer the question or move on.

Was the apostle Paul a psychologist? Did he have any ground to make that statement a credible one?

Let me ask you this, what makes a psychologist have a credible statement? And can a person have a credible statement if they are NOT a psychologist?

He is entitled to his opinion but that doesn't make it true.

Just because a psychologist says something does not make it true.

Generally people suppress things they find traumatic in some way, makes you wonder why this mass supression would be happening if indeed Paul is correct?

The suppression is going on in a mass amount because people love being their own boss over their lives.

So your whole belief system is based on fear?

No, it’s based on logic, plausibility and evidence. And yes of course there is SOME fear on the side. But I don’t follow my God PURELY out of fear, but out of love. Plus the fear that is there, it’s a HEALTHY fear, the RESPECT kind of fear.

Plus if you want to use the word “fear” against me, I will use it against you. ALL worldviews have an element of fear in them. Let me go through all 5 views that I keep stating on here.
1: energy is eternal and mindless and it created the universe by chance to its present form. This view fears looking stupid for saying nothing created something so it won’t do it and it fears committing to a God/gods, so it won’t commit. It fears wasting it’s time in life.
2: nothing plus chance plus time created the universe. Those who hold this view fear saying energy is eternal because then it would be an infinite regression of causes, thus nothing would happen, or no motion would be, and they fear committing to a God/gods, they fear wasting their time in life doing that.
3: The universe created itself. Those who hold this view fear looking stupid by saying nothing created it and fear the infinite regression of causes because it would create no motion or take forever for stuff to happen. And they fear committing to a God/gods.
4: I don’t know, but I know the other views are wrong. This view fears looking stupid by excepting all the other views, so won’t except no view, and once again fears committing to a God. but they still desperately want to know the truth because deep down, they fear too.

No one is exempt from fear.

You fear wasting your life committing to a God you don’t believe is there. But then you are afraid to leave it to find out later, so you are on here to scrutinize view points. I fear God, so I live for him, because I believe he IS there and holds me accountable. I fear wasting my life with the road of sin and then paying for it later from God. You see, we BOTH fear something.

ALL of us are pressed in a rock and a hard place, and we all choose a view based on a fear of something. However, I don’t choose my view PURELY on fear, but I really do believe my view is MOST plausible. Yes I have a healthy respectful fear of God, but it’s not all pure fear, I also have grown to love this God, to bath in his presence and when I am close to him, I feel his overwhelming joy and presence in my life. This makes me love him.
Anyway, the point is, we all fear something here, don’t we?

No wonder your argument is irrational.

Say why it’s irrational

 

[Jollybear]

Does this mean that every human who lived before Jesus and therefore had no knowledge of the Christan god was doomed to eternal damnation?

No, God had a pre plan before Christ for people. Those who accepted it, were safe.

Anyway you are only 'right' in the terms of your religion...

Ok, here is a question for you, what if my religion is right? Think about that for a moment.

what if you chose the wrong religion? (That is assuming you actually made a choice and weren't just indoctrinated by your families existing beliefs from a young and impressionable age?)

Oh I definitely was not indoctrinated by my parents that’s for sure. My mom was a non practicing catholic, and my dad was an atheist. Certainly no indoctrination, I went on a quest to search and seek the truth at an early age and looked into many ideas and beliefs and then chose. Now what if I choice the wrong religion? Well, no problem there, the weight of the evidence points in the direction of my religion.

But that is for another thread, that is a whole huge mountain of information all by itself.

I may find it more plausible than the magic invisible man in the sky and certainly it would be more open to scientific and rational debate.

I was asking this question to Evelyonian since he appeared to put a high confidence in a cosmologist to me. So I was asking him why.

Plus, again, I will repeat, there is no such thing as a 6th view, not even the cosmologists have it. There are only 5 views. Mindless eternal energy created the universe, or nothing plus chance plus time did it, or the universe created itself, or God did it, or the I don’t know. There is no number 6.

That is a FACT by the way. At the present day, there is NO 6th view. Also I will go further, I PREDICT there never will be a 6.

These are more belief systems than theories.

Absolute hogwash.

A theory in the scientific sense is the closest thing to actually having mathematical proof.

Well that means macro evolution is not a theory then. Because I constantly want proof of the proof, I have yet to find it and I have looked all over google for it and read tons of stuff ABOUT it, but I have actually never saw proof of the proof.

Of course with blind faith you don't need any proof, atheists see a lack of proof as a serious stumbling block to having faith and believing in something.

This is absolute foolishness. Athiesm is not just a lack of faith in the existence of God, it’s FAITH in the existence of nothing, chance, and time creating what we now see.

 

[The_Evelyonian]

The_Evelyonian




Do moments exist? Yes, but there is no TANGIBLE evidence that moments exist. Time, or moments are NOT tangible. Eternity is not tangible. The universe did not always exist, but this in the middle of nowhere sort of speak there was just an eternal moments going by and by. That is what eternity is. If you don’t believe eternity exists, tell me how eternity CANNOT exist?

Eternity would exist for ALL 4 views. Look at number 2 in particular, assuming it’s true for the moment, that would mean nothing was there for eternity, and then nothing blew elements into being and then by chance they evolved over much time.

Perhaps you don’t understand my terms. Eternity is basically nothing, it’s just a bunch of “now’s” or moments going by forever.

Do you understand?

I understand perfectly. You have no tangible evidence to support your assertion of eternity. Therefore it fails point #4 of this thread. Thanks for playing though.

Why does eternity not exist?

Why does the Celestial Teapot not exist? Why does the Invisible Pink Unicorn not exist? There is no evidence to back up your claim. It isn't for me to disprove anything. I can no more prove eternity doesn't exist than I could prove the FSM doesn't exist. However, the inability to disprove something is in no way evidence of its existence. Now, either provide tangible evidence of this 'eternity' or drop the claim.

Ok, that is fine if they are meaningless to you. But what if I am right? It’s not a threat, it’s a strong worldview that I have. What if I am right? Then what? Do you KNOW I am WRONG?

All I am trying to show you is that your “I don’t know” position is NOT safe as you may THINK it is.

Keep that in mind. You need to be SURE.

Yeah....um.....nice try. Now drop eternal damnation.

 

[tumbleweed41]

So I showed you your contradiction and you say this to me? So you want to believe that NOTHING caused the big bang.

You speak of nothing as if it was a creative energy. At no time has any reasonable person thought so.

Let me repeat it very slowly for you....

No....Cause....Is....Necessary.:slap:

Spontaneity, even that has a cause, if I spontaneously decide to get up and get a glass of water, there was still causes behind all that.

Semantics.
In quantum physics, spontaneity can be defined as, (here we go again)...

No....Cause....Is....Necessary.:slap:

Also once again, just because scientists have a limited understanding of quantum mechanics does not mean there are no causes for what goes on at that level.

It’s like a child saying “I don’t understand how a flower grows, so therefore a flower has no reasons for why it grows.” < That is absurd reasoning. And it’s not how science works.

You analogy only works if you consider yourself the child in your understanding of physics.

Plus there has been cases where they looked at the quantum particles and they STOP, and then when they look AWAY, they start flying all over the place, then when they LOOK again, the particles STOP. And this is a pattern. So, there is EVIDENTLY CAUSES at the quantum level.

Even your so called "pattern", if it exists, does not determine or necessitate cause.

Likewise to say there IS NO cause is non-conducive to finding any real answers.

According to men and women much more intelligent and knowledgeable than you, no cause has been found, nor has any action observed necessitated cause.
Further study may reveal a cause, or not. Research is continuous.

Atheists love to insert either nothing or chance in any missing piece of information.

Are you assuming all quantum physicists and cosmologists are atheists? Or are you assuming I am an atheist?
In either case, you are wrong.

Plus, I already said there are only 5 views on the table, there is no 6th.

Fortunately, your five views do not put restrictions on actual scientific study.

NEVER, EVER, will there be a 6. (that is my own prediction). Mark my words; there never will be a 6. And I am so confident in that prediction, that I would stake my life on it.

I have already presented two viable and scientifically backed views that vary from your five views. Lucky for you I am a compassionate humanist deist, else I may ask for payment on that bet.

 

[Autodidact]

Tumbleweed41



So I showed you your contradiction and you say this to me? So you want to believe that NOTHING caused the big bang.

Ok. I don’t have enough faith to believe that though.



Agreed, and I am glad you say this. Wow, we actually have some common ground there.




Spontaneity, even that has a cause, if I spontaneously decide to get up and get a glass of water, there was still causes behind all that.

Also once again, just because scientists have a limited understanding of quantum mechanics does not mean there are no causes for what goes on at that level.

It’s like a child saying “I don’t understand how a flower grows, so therefore a flower has no reasons for why it grows.” < That is absurd reasoning. And it’s not how science works.

Plus there has been cases where they looked at the quantum particles and they STOP, and then when they look AWAY, they start flying all over the place, then when they LOOK again, the particles STOP. And this is a pattern. So, there is EVIDENTLY CAUSES at the quantum level.



Likewise to say there IS NO cause is non-conducive to finding any real answers.



Atheists love to insert either nothing or chance in any missing piece of information.

Plus, I already said there are only 5 views on the table, there is no 6th.

1: eternal mindless energy made by chance this universe we see now.
2: nothing plus chance, plus time created the universe we see now
3: the universe created itself
4: God created the universe
5: I don’t know, but I know the 4 views above are not it.
And 6: there IS NO 6, never was, and never will be.

Basically it’s a thing of PREDICTIONS, all 5 of these views can make predictions. The first view predicts that as science progresses, they will find out that energy is eternal and mindless and by chance it created the universe. The second view predicts that as science progresses they will find out nothing plus chance plus time created the universe. The third view predicts that as science progresses they will find that the universe created itself. The fourth view predicts that as science progresses they will find that God created it. And the 5th view predicts that as science progresses it will never find the answer but yet still holds that it knows the first 4 are not the answer.

And 6, well there is no 6 and never will be a 6.

NEVER, EVER, will there be a 6. (that is my own prediction). Mark my words; there never will be a 6. And I am so confident in that prediction, that I would stake my life on it.

6. The universe has always existed.

 

[Autodidact]

Audodidact



Awesome, I am glad you said that. Now I have a question for you: are the laws of physics created by chance or created also by physics?

I don't know.

I am asserting that this God does BOTH. He creates the universe and also sustains it and sometimes INTERVENES in it.

Well you might assert it, but have done nothing to advance it.

Think of it like a person who builds a house, and then lets it run, but sometimes he may intervene when something goes wrong with it. But he don’t have to sustain the house after he builds it, the universe however needs to be sustained by God. Without his word of command holding it all together, it vanishes. In other words if God ceased to exist, so would the universe, but of course he would never cease to exist.

Well that's fascinating, but your argument doesn't get you there.

Unless you are asserting that God cuts out each individual snowflake?

So you believe God designed the laws of nature?

I don't, but at least your argument permits it. You've done nothing to show the possibility of any but a Deist God, and nothing to argue against the Theory of Evolution.

 

[tumbleweed41]

I don't, but at least your argument permits it. You've done nothing to show the possibility of any but a Deist God, and nothing to argue against the Theory of Evolution.

Hmmm, perhaps we should have this thread moved into the Deism section.

 

[The_Evelyonian]

Hmmm, perhaps we should have this thread moved into the Deism section.

Hey, worry about your own threads!

I like this one right where it is.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Hey, worry about your own threads!

I like this one right where it is.

LOL :sorry1:

 

[painted wolf]

# 6 is the well known "Steady State Universe"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steady_State_theory

Be careful when you stake your life on something. Absolute certainty leaves no room for faith and make you look foolish when you are wrong.

#7 is the Plasma Universe
#8 is Cyclic Universe
#9 is "Big Bounce"

I'm sure there are others that I'm missing.

wa:do

 

[bossbozz]

Bossbozz
Tell me why my sentence is wrong. The sentence is “everything is designed EXCEPT God”. Forget the nitpicking attitude and answer the question please. I am not interested in nit pickers and motive addressers, let’s get that cleared up. Just answer the question or move on.

Life has developed its own design through self replicating DNA. Life developed over billions of years of simple cells forming, replicating and mutating into different forms (evolving). Eventually these cells formed complex organisms with brains that allowed them to become aware of themselves and their environment. Until then there was no such thing as intelligence and without intelligence you can not have intelligent design. To say intelligence came first is completely backwards.

Let me ask you this, what makes a psychologist have a credible statement? And can a person have a credible statement if they are NOT a psychologist?

Just because a psychologist says something does not make it true.

When your talking about suppressing thoughts and feelings then you really should have some deeper knowledge of human psychology if you want your statement to carry any weight. I could say that Paul said these things to appease himself of the guilt he carried for originally persecuting the Christian faith but I doubt you would find that very credible?

The suppression is going on in a mass amount because people love being their own boss over their lives.

How convenient! I'm sure you can provide us with some hard scientific evidence for this as you are someone who "constantly wants proof of the proof"?

Plus if you want to use the word “fear” against me, I will use it against you. ALL worldviews have an element of fear in them. Let me go through all 5 views that I keep stating on here.
1: energy is eternal and mindless and it created the universe by chance to its present form. This view fears looking stupid for saying nothing created something so it won’t do it and it fears committing to a God/gods, so it won’t commit. It fears wasting it’s time in life.
2: nothing plus chance plus time created the universe. Those who hold this view fear saying energy is eternal because then it would be an infinite regression of causes, thus nothing would happen, or no motion would be, and they fear committing to a God/gods, they fear wasting their time in life doing that.
3: The universe created itself. Those who hold this view fear looking stupid by saying nothing created it and fear the infinite regression of causes because it would create no motion or take forever for stuff to happen. And they fear committing to a God/gods.
4: I don’t know, but I know the other views are wrong. This view fears looking stupid by excepting all the other views, so won’t except no view, and once again fears committing to a God. but they still desperately want to know the truth because deep down, they fear too.

6. All of the above plus everything you missed out. The universe was created from massive clouds of gas and dust that collapsed in on themselves under their own gravity. The immense friction and pressure caused explosions that created the stars and all the matter that the universal elements are made up from. The laws of physics and thermodynamics created the universe as we know it, there is much we still have to learn about the universe and that's what makes it so fascinating and wonderful... if we just mindlessly believed the bible then we would still believe that either the world is suspended on giant pillars (Samuel 2:8)or that the earth hangs upon nothing over empty space (Job 26:7)

I do not fear the unknown, I revel in its mystery!

You fear wasting your life committing to a God you don’t believe is there. But then you are afraid to leave it to find out later, so you are on here to scrutinize view points. I fear God, so I live for him, because I believe he IS there and holds me accountable. I fear wasting my life with the road of sin and then paying for it later from God. You see, we BOTH fear something.

You seem to think you know a lot about me but these are just your assumptions, how could you possibly know what I fear? You are just making stuff up now to suit your argument. I am here because it fascinates me as to how people can still believe in god in this day and age, I am here to learn and to debate the issue.

ALL of us are pressed in a rock and a hard place, and we all choose a view based on a fear of something. However, I don’t choose my view PURELY on fear, but I really do believe my view is MOST plausible. Yes I have a healthy respectful fear of God, but it’s not all pure fear, I also have grown to love this God, to bath in his presence and when I am close to him, I feel his overwhelming joy and presence in my life. This makes me love him.
Anyway, the point is, we all fear something here, don’t we?

Now you know about and speak for ALL of mankind ? Get over yourself! You are entitled to your beliefs and faith but don't assume that somehow qualifies you to speak for the choices of everyone else on this planet. I don't choose my beliefs from fear, I choose them because they make sense to me. I'm not afraid of being wrong, in fact getting things wrong is usually part of the path to learn to get things right. In my view god was a handy way of explaining things when we didn't have any other way of explaining or understanding the universe, he was a concept born of our fear of the unknown. I believe that science provides us with better answers and I can see why that would scare someone who spent their life believing that it was all down to god.

Say why it’s irrational

It's irrational because on one hand you demand proof of the proof for scientific theories yet you are quite happy to accept the existence of a god purely on faith?

 

[painted wolf]

Fundamentally creationists are so convinced that they are holy, that god must play by the rules they invent. If they cant understand how evolution works, it's through no fault of their own... its God being unable to do it.

The ultimate hubris... projecting their desires and faults onto the god they claim to worship.

wa:do

 

[Big_TJ]

So I showed you your contradiction and you say this to me? So you want to believe that NOTHING caused the big bang.

Interesting discussion! Jollybear, please explain to me
1) why isn't the Big Bang the First cause (how do you know that something caused the Big Bang?).

2) why it is more plausible to believe that God is the first cause than the Big Bang being the first cause.

 

[Jollybear]

The_Evelyonian

I understand perfectly. You have no tangible evidence to support your assertion of eternity. Therefore it fails point #4 of this thread. Thanks for playing though.

Let me ask you this: do you believe time exists and if so, is there tangible evidence for it?

Why does the Celestial Teapot not exist?

Ok, every time you say something like this, it makes the discussion not sound serious anymore. I asked a question, why do you not believe eternity exists?

Why does the Invisible Pink Unicorn not exist?

Look, I already went over why he don&#8217;t exist, I covered that and my argument was not addressed.

There is no evidence to back up your claim.

What do you mean by evidence?

It isn't for me to disprove anything. I can no more prove eternity doesn't exist than I could prove the FSM doesn't exist.

I don&#8217;t care if the flying spheghetti monster exists or not, but I will say this, IF he does exist, he would not be GOD, he would be a created entity, because he is FINITE. I wish people would understand that and stop using this argument to represent God in the sense that I define God, because it completely and falsely misrepresents what I am saying and there are holes in this argument when you use it. You don&#8217;t think so though, but I have showed that there are.

However, the inability to disprove something is in no way evidence of its existence. Now, either provide tangible evidence of this 'eternity' or drop the claim.

Right, that is true, but it brings me back to the next question. What if I am right? What then? And remember, there are only 5 views, there is no 6, never was (that is a fact) and never I predict never will be. Don&#8217;t tell me that I am limiting my options when the clear fact is that the options ARE in fact limited.

I am not dropping the claim, time exists, yet there is no tangible evidence for it.

Yeah....um.....nice try. Now drop eternal damnation.

I did not dam you, I asked you a question, why not answer it? What if I am right?

Do you think your SAFE in your position of &#8220;I don&#8217;t know&#8221;? If you don&#8217;t answer these questions, it&#8217;s like you&#8217;re trying to create the rules and that holds no meaning in a debate. In a debate and free discussion, one party does not get the make the rules.

 

[Jollybear]

Tumbleweed41

You speak of nothing as if it was a creative energy. At no time has any reasonable person thought so.

You misunderstood what I was saying. When I was referring to the word nothing, I did not mean that &#8220;nothing&#8221; was a creative energy, for if that is what I meant, I would not have used the word nothing, but rather I would have used energy. Which by the way is the 1st view &#8220;energy is mindless and eternal and it created the universe&#8221;.

Let me repeat it very slowly for you....

No....Cause....Is....Necessary.

Yea, that view is stupid. From nothing, nothing comes. If there is no cause for the seed of the bang to happen, then it won&#8217;t happen for there is nothing causing it to happen. That is a stupid view and I don&#8217;t have enough faith to believe it. It defies everything we know about causes as we observe the world. To believe that view is to believe magic. Why not believe rabbits can come out of a hat from nowhere?

Semantics.
In quantum physics, spontaneity can be defined as, (here we go again)...

No....Cause....Is....Necessary.

That is a science stopper, whether you believe it or not. Just because someone does not understand the CAUSE of something, does not mean there is NO cause for the thing.

You analogy only works if you consider yourself the child in your understanding of physics.

You can speak these words all day long. Go ahead. Just because someone does not understand something does not mean there is no cause for the thing.

The foundation of science is to look for causes. It&#8217;s to find out how this or that works.

Even your so called "pattern", if it exists, does not determine or necessitate cause.

For one, it does exist, and second, it does show a cause. They just don&#8217;t know why when they look at the particle, it stops instead of keeps flying everywhere. They don&#8217;t YET know why. But just because they don&#8217;t yet know, does not mean there is no REASON WHY.

I remember hearing this on a video I watched from a scientist.

 

[Jollybear]

According to men and women much more intelligent and knowledgeable than you, no cause has been found, nor has any action observed necessitated cause.
Further study may reveal a cause, or not. Research is continuous.

I don&#8217;t know how to install plumbing, does that mean there is no way to install plumbing? Just because intelligent researchers have found no cause YET, does not mean there is not a cause. To say there is no cause is to defy common sense and defy the very foundation of science, which is a quest to understand why things are the way they are.

Are you assuming all quantum physicists and cosmologists are atheists? Or are you assuming I am an atheist?
In either case, you are wrong.

I am not assuming all quantum physicists and cosmologists are atheists, I know some are theists. And I am not assuming you are an atheist, matter of fact, I know you&#8217;re not per your own words to me before, that you believe in the prime mover. So by believing in nothing making something, how does that fit into your prime mover view?

Fortunately, your five views do not put restrictions on actual scientific study.

I absolutely agree, they don&#8217;t restrict scientific study. But for a FACT, there has never been a 6th view and still there is none AND I PREDICT with strong force, that as science continues to study with NO restrictions, they will NEVER, EVER find a 6th view to bring to the table.

I have already presented two viable and scientifically backed views that vary from your five views.

Hold on there, you did NOT give me two views that are different then the 5 views I presented. No you did not.

Lucky for you I am a compassionate humanist deist, else I may ask for payment on that bet.

Ok

 

[Jollybear]

Audodidact

6. The universe has always existed.

This is not a 6th view, apparently you&#8217;re not thinking about what I said. This view that you just mentioned &#8220;the universe has always existed&#8221; this is a variation of number 1 &#8220;energy is mindless and eternal, it always existed and took on many different forms and now is in the form of this universe.

Basically what you just said is a variation of number 1.

Think.

There is NO 6th view, only 5 views, there was always only 5 views through all history, the only difference was and is, they all come in many different words and packages and ways. But there always is 5 views.

You need to get use to it and choose one. By not choosing, you are choosing the &#8220;I don&#8217;t know&#8221; position and that one is not safe.

I don't know.

So you don&#8217;t know how the laws of physics were made, either by chance or physics doing it. That is interesting. If you don&#8217;t know, then you don&#8217;t know that God DID NOT DO IT, do you?

Well you might assert it, but have done nothing to advance it.

Yes I have advanced it. I was only asserting it because you asked a question and I wanted to give you an answer that is my position. So I asserted that this was my position.

Well that's fascinating, but your argument doesn't get you there.

Unless you are asserting that God cuts out each individual snowflake?

No, he doesn&#8217;t cut out the snow flakes. He created the laws of physics and how the snow flake would be with relation to everything else that makes it that way.

I don't, but at least your argument permits it. You've done nothing to show the possibility of any but a Deist God, and nothing to argue against the Theory of Evolution.

I thought you said above you don&#8217;t know how the laws of physics got made, now you&#8217;re saying you don&#8217;t believe God did it. Let me ask you again, do you KNOW God DID NOT do it?

No I am not promoting a deist God. I am just building my case step by step.

 

[Jollybear]

Painted_wolf

# 6 is the well known "Steady State Universe"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steady_State_theory

Be careful when you stake your life on something. Absolute certainty leaves no room for faith and make you look foolish when you are wrong.

#7 is the Plasma Universe
#8 is Cyclic Universe
#9 is "Big Bounce"

I'm sure there are others that I'm missing.

wa:do

Look, if I stake my life on it, that means I KNOW FOR SURE. There is no 6. All these you just mentioned are just what I said, all 5 views come in many different words and packages. They are the same thing said differently as all 5 views I mentioned.

I&#8217;m not stupid.

 

[Jollybear]

Bossbozz

How convenient! I'm sure you can provide us with some hard scientific evidence for this as you are someone who "constantly wants proof of the proof"?

Some people have told me themselves by pure admittance. And I have read quotes from people admitting it.

I do not fear the unknown, I revel in its mystery!

Do you KNOW that I am wrong that there is a God and he holds you accountable? Do you KNOW that I am wrong?

You seem to think you know a lot about me but these are just your assumptions, how could you possibly know what I fear? You are just making stuff up now to suit your argument. I am here because it fascinates me as to how people can still believe in god in this day and age, I am here to learn and to debate the issue.

Tell me this, do you KNOW that I am wrong? If you don&#8217;t know that I am wrong, but only believe I am, why do you not FEAR that you COULD be wrong and I right, which would then make you accountable to God?

Please answer that for me.

Also if there is no God, nor a soul, why would you care to know why people still believe in God or not? What would it matter?

Now you know about and speak for ALL of mankind ? Get over yourself! You are entitled to your beliefs and faith but don't assume that somehow qualifies you to speak for the choices of everyone else on this planet. I don't choose my beliefs from fear, I choose them because they make sense to me. I'm not afraid of being wrong, in fact getting things wrong is usually part of the path to learn to get things right. In my view god was a handy way of explaining things when we didn't have any other way of explaining or understanding the universe, he was a concept born of our fear of the unknown. I believe that science provides us with better answers and I can see why that would scare someone who spent their life believing that it was all down to god.

You just said you don&#8217;t like me speaking for all mankind and that they all form beliefs with some form of fear, now you just did the same thing you were against me doing, you said God was a concept born out of the fear of the unknown.

How do you know that it was out of fear? You presume to know all God believers?

It's irrational because on one hand you demand proof of the proof for scientific theories yet you are quite happy to accept the existence of a god purely on faith?

I don&#8217;t accept it on pure faith, yes there is an element of faith, but it&#8217;s faith based on evidence and that which is most plausible, those that don&#8217;t believe in God, have more faith. That&#8217;s how I see it.

 

[Jollybear]

Big_TJ

Interesting discussion!

Jollybear, please explain to me
1) why isn't the Big Bang the First cause (how do you know that something caused the Big Bang?).

First if the big bang went bang, bangs don&#8217;t explode for no reason. Secondly, the reason why the big bang cannot be the first cause, and thus be eternal, because for one, it&#8217;s FINITE, and thirdly, there cannot be an infinite regression of causes because there would be no motion, or no events would take place since it would take forever for them to happen. And the reason why God is most plausible is because he has knowledge that the circle of eternity has to be broken in order for a beginning to take place, but mindless energy does not know this has to be done.

2) why it is more plausible to believe that God is the first cause than the Big Bang being the first cause.

Answered it above.