Creationists: How do you test for "truth"?

[Subduction Zone]

His point is too lame to respond to.

The resurrection is everything, resurrection is the reason. "If there is no resurrection our preaching is useless and so is your faith" if there is no resurrection there's no point in behaving, "eat and drink for tomorrow we die"

I am sorry that you have such a low opinion of your own morals. Since countries with very few to no Christians do not see to have the problem that you imply would exist without belief it appears that at least that part of your belief system is unfounded.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It's Gods gospel.

English Standard Version
Or did I commit a sin in humbling myself so that you might be exalted, because I preached God’s gospel to you free of charge?

Sorry, now you are merely supporting QuestioningMind's argument.

If that is all that you have then his claim is as valid as yours.

ETA: And how does your link support you? That was a letter that may have been written by Paul, but it was written before the Gospels were written. You do not seem to understand the history of the Bible either.

 

[Kemosloby]

I am sorry that you have such a low opinion of your own morals. Since countries with very few to no Christians do not see to have the problem that you imply would exist without belief it appears that at least that part of your belief system is unfounded.

There would be no point of being Christian if there is no resurrection...no reward. The promise of Christ is to return and resurrect us..that's the good news...that is our hope in Christ.

he Resurrection of the Dead
…Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If our hope in Christ is for this life alone, we are to be pitied more than all men. But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.…

1 cor 15:14
…If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is worthless,and so is your faith.

Understand?

 

[Scott C.]

What is truth? said jesting Pilate, and would not stay for an answer.

─ Francis Bacon, 'On Truth'​

I believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. So, it is very valuable scripture, but I would not say 100% inerrant. But when it comes to squaring the Bible with science, the inerrancy factor does not seem very relevant to me. The more relevant issue is "Am I correctly interpreting the word of God found in the Bible?" And, "Am I correctly interpreting science?"

Truth is truth, whether found in the word of God or in science. I would argue that God reveals truth to mankind through both mediums. If a scientific truth is revealed, which may contradict my scripture based view of reality, I may have to adjust my view of reality. I think it's a mistake to disregard good science ever.

Here are examples of things I consider to be inerrant truths, revealed by God, and which can't be contradicted by science. I hang my hat on these religious truths:

1. There is a Father, Son and Holy Ghost which comprise the Godhead.
2. God created the world.
3. Jesus is the Son of God.
4. The virgin birth happened.
5. Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead.
6. The atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ.
7. The plan of salvation.
8. We lived with God before this life.
9. Life after death.
10. Jesus is the only means of salvation.
11. Adam and Eve are literal people and all people on earth today are their descendants.

Examples where I lack certainty and may change my view over time:

1. Age of earth.
2. Time spent on creation.
3. How evolution fits with my 11 points above.
4. When did Adam and Eve live and how does that time and location square with scientific evidence of human life long ago.
4. Great flood covered the entire world and everyone died except those on the ark. Is it literal? Am I correctly interpreting?
5. Tower of Babel. Literal? Interpreting correctly?

 

[Subduction Zone]

There would be no point of being Christian if there is no resurrection...no reward. The promise of Christ is to return and resurrect us..that's the good news...that is our hope in Christ.

That is your opinion. Santa Claus had some advice for you:

"Be good for goodness sake:.

he Resurrection of the Dead
…Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If our hope in Christ is for this life alone, we are to be pitied more than all men. But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.…

1 cor 15:14
…If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is worthless,and so is your faith.

Understand?

I understand better than you do. Your faith is not worthless. I am sorry that you do not value Christianity. You need the reward to follow Jesus. That is a bit sad. That is a rather juvenile approach to your religion.

By the way, you still have not supported your claim. You have put it at the same level as QuestioningMind's claim. If you don't believe his claim by the same logic you should not believe your own.

 

[Polymath257]

"The Gospel" is Gods word. "according to" simply means who is telling it.

How do you *know* it is God's word? THAT is the whole point. It is told by a human. Humans make mistakes. They get their facts wrong. They misinterpret things.

All you know is that these writings were written by someone and then attributed to the disciples. You don't know that they were *actually* written by the disciples (some NT writings were certainly NOT written by those to whom they are attributed). You don't know the disciples were correct in their interpretation of events (in fact, the stories told say they often were not). You do NOT know they are the 'Word of God'. You only know that someone *thought* they were.

 

[Polymath257]

His point is too lame to respond to.

The resurrection is everything, resurrection is the reason. "If there is no resurrection our preaching is useless and so is your faith" if there is no resurrection there's no point in behaving, "eat and drink for tomorrow we die"

Yes, your faith is useless. That doens't mean that there is no point in 'behaving'. It's just that morality isn't based on the whims of a deity.

 

[blü 2]

This is so by nature of science as a category of truth.

Bear in mind that my definition of "truth", as stated in the OP, is conformity with reality, the 'correspondence' view. When you speak of 'categories of truth', what definition of truth are you using? It appears to differ from mine.

 

[blü 2]

How can you have a book about Harry Potter without an actual Harry Potter? The fact that there's a BOOK about Harry Potter MUST mean that there is a REAL Harry Potter!

Look at me! I just proved that Harry Potter is REAL!

So how do you demonstrate ─ to yourself, and to me ─ that 'The bible is inerrant' is a true statement?

 

[Kemosloby]

That is your opinion. Santa Claus had some advice for you:

"Be good for goodness sake:.



I understand better than you do. Your faith is not worthless. I am sorry that you do not value Christianity. You need the reward to follow Jesus. That is a bit sad. That is a rather juvenile approach to your religion.

By the way, you still have not supported your claim. You have put it at the same level as QuestioningMind's claim. If you don't believe his claim by the same logic you should not believe your own.

Nope, Santa has the opposite message. Be good for goodness sake, simply to be good is not Christs message. Christ says to be good for your own sake..to receive your reward.

Who should I listen to about Christianity you or an Apostle?

 

[Polymath257]

Nope, Santa has the opposite message. Be good for goodness sake, simply to be good is not Christs message. Christ says to be good for your own sake..to receive your reward.

Who should I listen to about Christianity you or an Apostle?

Neither. Look to history and reason. Not to any one person (or twelve, even).

 

[blü 2]

His point is too lame to respond to.

The resurrection is everything, resurrection is the reason. "If there is no resurrection our preaching is useless and so is your faith" if there is no resurrection there's no point in behaving, "eat and drink for tomorrow we die"

That's a rather grotesque alternative, but I suppose it has to be to maintain a wholly improbable claim. The biblical evidence for the resurrection is a forensic disaster, for a start ─ not one eyewitness account, not even a purported one, not one contemporary mention, not one independent voice, and six separate biblical reports each of which contradicts the other five in major ways.

The alternatives to there being no resurrection are adjusted forms of Christianity as a teaching about life sufficient in itself; and humanism, Buddhism, Hinduism (Ganesha, who's humorous, kind, passionate about learning and wisdom, likes to party and has an elephant avatar, strikes me as an attractive choice), paganism, the Great Spirit, the Rainbow Serpent (another interesting being) and many many more. The closest of these to Christianity would be paganism, since many Christian ideas, not least souls, the afterlife, judgment, heaven and hell, are Greek, via Alexandrian Judaism.

 

[blü 2]

Who should I listen to about Christianity you or an Apostle?

This brings us back to that truth test you use. What is it?

 

[QuestioningMind]

So how do you demonstrate ─ to yourself, and to me ─ that 'The bible is inerrant' is a true statement?

I make no claims to be able to. I was simply pointing out how silly someone else's claims are.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Nope, Santa has the opposite message. Be good for goodness sake, simply to be good is not Christs message. Christ says to be good for your own sake..to receive your reward.

Who should I listen to about Christianity you or an Apostle?

Nope. That is not the message of the gospel. Very few Christians believe in a works based salvation. You do not seem to understand your own myth.

And you should listen to me because I understand your Bible better than you do.

 

[Kemosloby]

Nope. That is not the message of the gospel. Very few Christians believe in a works based salvation. You do not seem to understand your own myth.

And you should listen to me because I understand your Bible better than you do.

It is you who do not understand the gospel. First of all "faith without works is dead". Second, salvation is not all there is, there is also a reward in heaven waiting for those with works. For they have laid up treasures in heaven.

 

[Grandliseur]

My own view is that truth is conformity with reality. This, often called the 'correspondence' view, means that if you want to know whether a particular statement is true or not, you check how accurately its report corresponds to objective reality. Thus truth can in principle be objectively verified ─ a wholly admirable quality,

If it were that simple there would be no evolutionists. Unfortunately, human beings are not made equal, a lot of things govern our personal realities.
"truth is conformity with reality"
Here is where we part ways, but it could be a parting over a coffee or a beer, amiably.
My reality and experience tells me that - things need a maker. You have heard it before, 'if I can identify the most basics of human creations, a toothpick, at the beach as having ID, ergo, being made by man. Then my perspective is set in stone. Intelligently designed things my by my rationale have ID, a maker, a creator.

What comes after that is what comes after the equal sign. One and one equals two, in the West we write it 2, in olden days it might have been written as a letter of the alphabet some places, and in Japan two is written as 二 (sound: 'ni'), eight as 八 (sound: hachi). What I am trying to get to is that once we decide that a Creator is needed, we then have the problem of who, what, which religion. Thus though after the equal sign I have 'Creator' - the problem of determining things is only beginning here. Don't the Hindu have one such that is called Shiva! That is their god, not mine. Some people would think this problem fun.

Nonetheless, this seems to me to be the first step toward Creationism or Evolution. Can this be objectively verified? Well, in my opinion, Yes. Things do not make themselves, and the better the engineer, the better usually is the product made.

Perspective is everything, perhaps
I just had a discussion with a lady who knows her Bible as well as I do, though she belongs to a church and I do not. We use the same scriptures, however, in this interesting discussion, we have different conclusions on this one issue. The differences are, our life experiences, our perspective on what God does based on the narrative. In this case, I think the difference in this case in that discussion is important.

It seems that in the question you pose, perspective colors our personal conclusions and reality. I know I used what you have heard a hundred times, but you asked for our reasons. I also know that your perspective uses different reasonings to arrive to what you believe is your objective truth,

The difference in perspective remains; paradigm is created in each on such details.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It is you who do not understand the gospel. First of all "faith without works is dead". Second, salvation is not all there is, there is also a reward in heaven waiting for those with works. For they have laid up treasures in heaven.

No reason to think that you will get extra rewards for being good. Your understanding is lacking.

 

[Subduction Zone]

If it were that simple there would be no evolutionists. Unfortunately, human beings are not made equal, a lot of things govern our personal realities.
"truth is conformity with reality"
Here is where we part ways, but it could be a parting over a coffee or a beer, amiably.
My reality and experience tells me that - things need a maker. You have heard it before, 'if I can identify the most basics of human creations, a toothpick, at the beach as having ID, ergo, being made by man. Then my perspective is set in stone. Intelligently designed things my by my rationale have ID, a maker, a creator.

What comes after that is what comes after the equal sign. One and one equals two, in the West we write it 2, in olden days it might have been written as a letter of the alphabet some places, and in Japan two is written as 二 (sound: 'ni'), eight as 八 (sound: hachi). What I am trying to get to is that once we decide that a Creator is needed, we then have the problem of who, what, which religion. Thus though after the equal sign I have 'Creator' - the problem of determining things is only beginning here. Don't the Hindu have one such that is called Shiva! That is their god, not mine. Some people would think this problem fun.

Nonetheless, this seems to me to be the first step toward Creationism or Evolution. Can this be objectively verified? Well, in my opinion, Yes. Things do not make themselves, and the better the engineer, the better usually is the product made.

Perspective is everything, perhaps
I just had a discussion with a lady who knows her Bible as well as I do, though she belongs to a church and I do not. We use the same scriptures, however, in this interesting discussion, we have different conclusions on this one issue. The differences are, our life experiences, our perspective on what God does based on the narrative. In this case, I think the difference in this case in that discussion is important.

It seems that in the question you pose, perspective colors our personal conclusions and reality. I know I used what you have heard a hundred times, but you asked for our reasons. I also know that your perspective uses different reasonings to arrive to what you believe is your objective truth,

The difference in perspective remains; paradigm is created in each on such details.

One can always cherry pick items that were made. But that doesn't support your claims. Does way snowflake require a maker? How about each grain of sand. A lack of understanding does not help when debating.

 

[Kemosloby]

No reason to think that you will get extra rewards for being good. Your understanding is lacking.

Sure there is,

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man will come in His Father's glory with His angels, and then He will repay each one according to what he has done.