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Creationists, please provide evidence

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
I'm still wondering if kinds are so easy to identify why do we have animals that are apparently so difficult to assign to a kind.

Is this just another example of God being sneaky?

wa:do
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
If many cells 'evolved' into life in different areas and produced various kinds of organisms initially, how could you tell the difference?
Two things:
(1) This is almost exactly ToE; it varies only about 1 iota from the theory you have been trashing throughout this thread. You may want to get your story straight--helpful suggestion. Makes you look less crazy.
(2) The main evidence for universal common ancestry is the fact that every living organism is based on the same reproductive mechanism--DNA. from wiki:
All known forms of life are based on the same fundamental biochemical organisation: genetic information encoded in DNA, transcribed into RNA, through the effect of protein- and RNA-enzymes, then translated into proteins by (highly similar) ribosomes, with ATP, NADH and others as energy sources, etc. Furthermore, the genetic code (the "translation table" according to which DNA information is translated into proteins) is nearly identical for all known lifeforms, from bacteria to humans. The universality of this code is generally regarded by biologists as definitive evidence in favor of the theory of universal common descent.

I believe scientists could not . They do not know what any other line would look like nor if they would also have similar genetic make up etc. It is assumed that the genetic similarity amongst organisms is a sign of common decent. However, to say that just one line continued and others became extinct has been used way too many times for it to be a credible explanation of what is seen in DNA.
What is your explanation for: DNA/RNA to proteins via ribosomes? Why is this the same in every organism on earth?
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
When God created parent kinds, each parent kind had all of the information necessary to produce all of the different species that we see today. Over time, much of that information has been lost thru natural selection, and microevolution. For example. The Panda bear has reached a genetic dead end. It must rely on a diet of bamboo for survival. The next stop is probably extinction. That is due to a loss of parent kind information.

That can be difficult to determine. The best way is reproductive isolation and common traits that are easily identifiable. The cat family has distinct features, and it is fairly easy to determine those that belong to the cat family with a quick glance. The same is true with the dog kind. There are many dog species, but it is rather easy to recognize a dog species just from it's appearance.
I believe within a parent kind can be many species. These species are reproductively isolated from all other kinds. A cat cannot mate with a rabbit for example. They are different kinds. Now there are species within a kind that can lose the information necessary to mate with other species within its own kind, and become reproductively isolated from many of the species within its own kind.
I think we can only know it when it happens. I don;t think we can predict when a species may become isolated from other species within its kind.

I know much of what I have said could be considered circumstantial evidence and dismissed as not really being evidence, but science doesn't disagree with any of my claims either, IMO

O.K. this is the exact opposite of what you said before. Thought you might like to know. If you don't want to look schizophrenic, or if you would like to make sense, I suggest picking a single consistent story and sticking to it.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
What is your explanation for: DNA/RNA to proteins via ribosomes? Why is this the same in every organism on earth?
I want to know why all living things use DNA? We now know that RNA works just fine without DNA and even comes in a more stable double strand that isn't like DNA... and there are several other molecules that can do the job of RNA/DNA like PNA, TNA and GNA.

So, why would an intelligent designer make all these useful molecules for making life... but only end up using DNA? Unless that designer intended to mislead us?

wa:do
 

newhope101

Active Member
PaintedWolf "I want to know why all living things use DNA? We now know that RNA works just fine without DNA and even comes in a more stable double strand that isn't like DNA... and there are several other molecules that can do the job of RNA/DNA like PNA, TNA and GNA.

So, why would an intelligent designer make all these useful molecules for making life... but only end up using DNA? Unless that designer intended to mislead us?"

PaintedWolf...God did not make these molecules, they appear to be artificially made and I'm not sure whom is trying to decieve whom.

Wiki: Artificial nucleic acids include peptide nucleic acid (PNA), Morpholino and locked nucleic acid (LNA), as well as glycol nucleic acid (GNA) and threose nucleic acid (TNA). Each of these is distinguished from naturally-occurring DNA or RNA by changes to the backbone of the molecule.

I do not think it's that simple. Bacteria and other organisms continue to use RNA today with no DNA. It is theorised that life started using RNA, and DNA evolved later. This is yet theoretical and the focus of much debate. I do not see why creationists should have to refute nor answer to TOE concepts that remain theoretical.

God used physics and science to accomplish the creation. It is a science creationists have yet to understand just like evolutionists & Toe. How can any human explain how God achieved this or why he used DNA and RNA, considering that scientists have no actual proof of how it eventuated in line with TOE? Basically there is nothing yet to refute.

Organisms require either RNA or DNA to adapt to environmental change etc. I think it was very clever of God to think it up.

The facts are that life is here on earth and complex. Another fact is that scientists have yet to prove how this came to be according to TOE. To date all there is are theories and researchers that debate each other on the topic.

What Came First in the Origin of Life? New Study Contradicts the 'Metabolism First' Hypothesis

ScienceDaily (Jan. 9, 2010) — A new study published in Proceedings of National Academy of Sciences rejects the theory that the origin of life stems from a system of self-catalytic molecules capable of experiencing Darwinian evolution without the need of RNA or DNA and their replication.

The U.S. National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) defines life as a "self-sustaining chemical system capable of Darwinian evolution." The scientific theories on the origin of life revolve around two main ideas: one focuses on genetics -- with RNA or DNA replication as an essential condition for Darwinian evolution to take place -- and the other focuses on metabolism.

Researchers in this study nevertheless reveal that these systems are incapable of undergoing a Darwinian evolution. For the first time a rigorous analysis was carried out to study the supposed evolution of these molecular networks using a combination of numerical and analytical simulations and network analysis approximations. Their research demonstrated that the dynamics of molecular compound populations which divide after having reached a critical size do not evolve, since during this process the compounds lose properties which are essential for Darwinian evolution.

Researchers state that different prebiotic Earth scenarios can be considered. However, the basic property of life as a system capable of undergoing Darwinian evolution began when genetic information was finally stored and transmitted such as occurs in nucleotide polymers (RNA and DNA).
 
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painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
PaintedWolf...God did not make these molecules, they appear to be artificially made and I'm not sure whom is trying to decieve whom.
So... God isn't as creative as we are? We made something that God can not make?

I had no idea God was so limited!

wa:do
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
How can any human explain how God achieved this or why he used DNA and RNA? [/quote]
You can't. God's ways are not knowable to us. That's why it's a subject of religion, not science.
 

Big_TJ

Active Member
this is exactly what the hebrew word in question CAN signify...the length of a YOM is undetermined. Its like the common farewell phrase- "i'll see you later" - When is later? Its not a determined day or time, it could be later in the afternoon or tomorrow morning or next week or next month.

Pegg, I hope you realize that this is crap. While it is true that a day (YOM) can signify any period of time, you should also know that the context in which it is used will determine how long is that period of time. Genesis specifically speak about "the morning" and "the evening" in regards to the day (eg "nd there was evening, and there was morning—the first day - Genesis 1 v3)" It would take someone without a brain to think that this could mean next month or next week or next million years.
 

newhope101

Active Member
PaintedWolf ..I'm glad you acknowledge your deceit in purporting that God made PNA, LNA, GNA but chose to only use RNA & DNA. One really does have to check your remarks for accuracy.

Autodidact is another where one must check every comment for deceiptful information. Ribosomes appear to NOT be all the same as alledged. You are a liar. Indeed humans supposedly evolved from bacteria yet the ribosomes SIGNIFICANTLY differ in the 3 domains of life. Looser!
Wiki: Ribosomes from bacteria, archaea and eukaryotes (the three domains of life on Earth), have significantly different structures and RNA sequences. These differences in structure allow some antibiotics to kill bacteria by inhibiting their ribosomes, while leaving human ribosomes unaffected. The ribosomes in the mitochondria of eukaryotic cells resemble those in bacteria, reflecting the likely evolutionary origin of this organelle.[1] The word ribosome comes from ribonucleic acid and the Greek: soma (meaning body).Archaeal, eubacterial and eukaryotic ribosomes differ in their size, composition and the ratio of protein to RNA. Their active sites are made of RNA, so ribosomes are now classified as "ribozymes".[2].

So creationists look here below. Look at this data about widespread morphologically identical species that have significant genetic differences beween them. Initially different species could not mate..then..oh sorry there are some exceptions and now.... some species are visually identical, can't mate and yet show significant genetic differences. What a mess. Yet the faithful contine to battle on. Your faith in the face of adversity is to be admired.

OMG another load of inconsistency in their term 'species'. Evolutionists can't even define their own terms with any veracity. I do not understand why some of them want to prattle on and show how educated they are in biology, yet they can't even accurately and consistently describe the most basic of their concepts. Loosers!


Species Detectives Track Unseen Evolution

ScienceDaily (July 20, 2007) — New species are evading detection using a foolproof disguise -- their own unchanged appearance. Research published in the journal, BMC Evolutionary Biology, suggests that the phenomenon of different animal species not being visually distinct despite other significant genetic differences is widespread in the animal kingdom.

  • DNA profiles and distinct mating groups are the only way to spot an evolutionary splinter group from their look-alike cousins, introducing uncertainty to biodiversity estimates globally.
Markus Pfenninger and Klaus Schwenk searched the Zoological Record database (1978-2006) to pinpoint reports of hidden (cryptic) species both biogeographically and taxonomically, and found 2207 examples. Pfenninger and Schwenk, who are from Germany based at J.W. Goethe-Universität in Frankfurt found evidence for cryptic species evenly spread among all major branches of the animal kingdom. They also found that cryptic species were just as likely to be found in all biogeographical regions.
The findings go against received wisdom that the insect or reptile branches of the animal kingdom are more likely to harbour cryptic species, and that these are more likely to be found in the tropics than in temperate regions. Zoologists should therefore consider factoring in a degree of cryptic diversity as a random error in all biodiversity assessments.
A cryptic species complex is a group of species that is reproductively isolated from each other - but lacking conspicuous differences in outward appearance. Researchers using techniques such as polymerase chain reaction (PCR) and DNA sequencing have increasingly discovered - often unexpectedly - that similar-looking animals within a presumed species are in fact genetically divergent.
As well as highlighting hidden biodiversity among creatures zoologists have already catalogued, the findings have implications for conservation efforts. Another possibility is that pathogens, parasites and invasive species disguised as their relatives may yet remain undetected, representing a potential human health threat.
Article: Markus Pfenninger and Klaus Schwenk, "Cryptic animal species are homogeneously distributed among taxa and biogeographical regions" BMC Evolutionary Biology (in press)
 
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RedOne77

Active Member
Autodidact is another where one must check every comment for deceiptful information. Ribosomes appear to NOT be all the same as alledged. You are a liar. Indeed humans supposedly evolved from bacteria yet the ribosomes SIGNIFICANTLY differ in the 3 domains of life. Looser!

So, because something is "significantly" different means that it must not be related?

OMG another load of inconsistency in their term 'species'. Evolutionists can't even define their own terms with any veracity. I do not understand why some of them want to prattle on and show how educated they are in biology, yet they can't even accurately and consistently describe the most basic of their concepts. Loosers!

:areyoucra How much evolution do you understand?
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
PaintedWolf ..I'm glad you acknowledge your deceit in purporting that God made PNA, LNA, GNA but chose to only use RNA & DNA. One really does have to check your remarks for accuracy.
I feel sad for your lame god... A God that needs man to invent molecules that a God could not is no intelligent designer... let alone a creator god.
To you God is little more than a unimaginative child playing with dough.

So creationists look here below. Look at this data about widespread morphologically identical species that have significant genetic differences beween them. Initially different species could not mate..then..oh sorry there are some exceptions and now.... some species are visually identical, can't mate and yet show significant genetic differences. What a mess. Yet the faithful contine to battle on. Your faith in the face of adversity is to be admired.

OMG another load of inconsistency in their term 'species'. Evolutionists can't even define their own terms with any veracity. I do not understand why some of them want to prattle on and show how educated they are in biology, yet they can't even accurately and consistently describe the most basic of their concepts. Loosers!
You really don't understand anything you cut and paste do you?
No wonder your version of god can't think up PNA and needed some "Looser" scientist to point it out. :rolleyes:

wa:do
 

newhope101

Active Member
So, because something is "significantly" different means that it must not be related?
Once again you coneniently miss the point.


:areyoucra How much evolution do you understand?

Another sprooker unaware of the 'species problem' that real scholars already admit to.
 

newhope101

Active Member
I feel sad for your lame god... A God that needs man to invent molecules that a God could not is no intelligent designer... let alone a creator god. God appears to have done just fine with what he used. Much better than researchers that managed to grow legs on some poor fruitflys head!
To you God is little more than a unimaginative child playing with dough.


You really don't understand anything you cut and paste do you?
No wonder your version of god can't think up PNA and needed some "Looser" scientist to point it out. :rolleyes:

wa:do

Too bad you do not understand how silly recent research makes Toe look...then again I don't believe in 'little people' or 'raven mockers'. Do you enjoy being mocked? Neither do creationists.
 
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RedOne77

Active Member
Once again you coneniently miss the point.


I don't think we've ever really had much of a conversation before. Anyways, if I've missed the point please enlighten me. Besides showing that Auto was wrong about ribosomes being the same (although such is really hyperbole at best), it seems your argument is that because the ribosomes in each of the classified domains are so different they cannot be related.


Another sprooker unaware of the 'species problem' that real scholars already admit to.

I'm no expert, but I'm familiar with the different species concepts, speciation, and some of the crazy stuff nature has done. I'm aware that the concept is not perfect, but I'm not aware of how these problems are problems for the ToE or evolution in general. Perhaps you can explain it?
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Yes, you're right. The Cambrian explosion actually happened exactly as you describe. You have now utterly disproved your position. Do you see why, or do I need to explain it?

the cambrian explosian is in harmony with the genesis account because genesis describes the creation of sea creatures according to their kinds and the cambrian explosion shows a huge variety of sea creatures who had no previous ancestors

were evolution true, then those cambrian creatures should have ancestors because according to ToE ALL living things had ancestors
The cambrian sea creatures were the first of Gods living creations...just as Genesis says.
 
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