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Creationists, please provide evidence

yes it does.

Op is on our side and not a troll.

he is making a point that its a primitive myth.

That is a point that should not need to be made on this forum.

The level of intelligence and awareness on this forum is very high.

It's like making a thread letting us know Santa isn't real.

Not having a go at anyone, but just saying.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
That is a point that should not need to be made on this forum.

The level of intelligence and awareness on this forum is very high.

It's like making a thread letting us know Santa isn't real.

Not having a go at anyone, but just saying.

with this being a religious forum, we still get young earthers in here and a few present.

remember more people believe in creation then evolution as a whole.
 
with this being a religious forum, we still get young earthers in here and a few present.

remember more people believe in creation then evolution as a whole.

I disagree. Just because one believes in religion (like me, for example) it does not mean they believe in creation. I am willing to say that atheism is bigger than all religions. Most people will say they are Christians, Hindus etc, but they do not follow their religion nor know a thing about it.

I'll also say age is irrelevant.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
I disagree.

well then you dont know the statistics, Only %44 believe in evolution

atheism is bigger than all religions

Please do some research and if you have proof of this please post a link. We know its not the case bud.

I'll also say age is irrelevant.

What I have noticed is people that are sick, old and dieing tend to gravitate back to religion and hold on to those beliefs.

As far as young people, many start out brainwashed from the church and there parents, it takes some time to undo this before they can become thereselves
 
well then you dont know the statistics, Only %44 believe in evolution



Please do some research and if you have proof of this please post a link. We know its not the case bud.



What I have noticed is people that are sick, old and dieing tend to gravitate back to religion and hold on to those beliefs.

As far as young people, many start out brainwashed from the church and there parents, it takes some time to undo this before they can become thereselves

I'll take back the part about evolution. You have a statistic there. Even though I believe these statistics are BS and normally done by kids who want their free PS3. Free surveys...

You just quoted one part of my point. What I said cannot be made into a statistic. As I said, peoples real thoughts and beliefs do not go into statistics. This is about being practical.

Here we go... There are other religions out there, yaknow? Christianity is not the only religion in the world. I never went to a Church, this is because I am a Hindu. My parents never brainwashed me, and no-one I went to school with was ever religious, although some are now.
 

newhope101

Active Member
Hey there creationists. There is a stack of evidence for creation. We do not have to worry at all. The problem is differentiating the theoretical from the evidence.

I've been talking about the theoretical assumptions that currently supports Toe as opposed to the evidence that supports creation.

Below is some evidence for creation that evolutionists are unable to refute, other than by distractions, asides or more theoretical assumptions..

Some evidence for creation. The evidence supports creation. The assumptions and theoretical hypothesis are all that support evolution.

1. Mitochondrial Eve demonstrates all of mankind alive today are related to and descendant from a single female as told in the bible. This evidence supports creation and requires theoretical assumptions to provide support for toe.There is no evidence of cohorts other than by theoretical modelling.

2. Y chromosome Adam, demonstrates we are all related to and descendant from the one male, There is no evidence to suggest that there were cohorts other than theoretical modelling.

3. The Y chromosome in the human and chimpanzee males are remarkably and unexpectedly different to each other and comparable to a chicken and human at 310 million years of divergence.. Hence further proof that Chimps and humans are not related. Your attempts to explain why the Y chromosomes are so different is theoretical. The fact that they are very different supports chimps and humans being created individually.

4. An abundance of life is shown to arise during the Cambrian period. This is the evidence and this is proof of creation. Anything else apart from this evidence are hypothetical assumptions. Evolutionists attempts to assert ancestry to the Precambrian creation have failed. Researchers are unable to provide anything more than assumptions and hypothesis re oxygen levels and why such a plethora of life suddenly begins to appear at the one time. Many Precambrian creatures still exist today..

5. Mankind appears fully formed. This is evidence for creation. Researchers attempts to show ancestry through the fossil record to chimpanzees have failed. The constant debate and reclassification of fossil evidence along with proof that homo cranial features are not unique to the homo line, invalidate any attempt to prove ancestry through morphological similarity. Genomic information is reliant on fossil evidence to inform same and hence is not a reliable source of data. Evolutionary moves away from smooth transitions to staged evolution to resolve the fossil evidence have also failed. Your attempts to tie bipedal walking to brain increases have failed. Your attempts to tie humans to knuckle walkers have failed. Your attempts to classify bipedal walking as a move to humanness have failed.

6. The search for Last Universal Common Ancestor (LUCA) has failed and no longer ties all life to a single LUCA. This supports creation. Your assumption in relation to horizontal gene transfer remain controversial and provide no substance other than assumptions and hypothesis as to why there is no LUCA. The fact is simply, there is no LUCA and that is evidence in favour of creation.

7. Researchers have now shown that the sharing of genes means little in the understanding of what makes humans special or other creatures unique. It is about gene expression and gene families. The fact that a human and a plant share genes is proof of common design, and not ancestry.
.

I am not looking for more theoretical assumptions to refute the above points. Creationists have heard it all before.

The evidence supports creation. The theoretical assumptions support TOE. It is a sad fact that the evidence happens to support creation and assumptions are required to give evolutionary context, but it is just the way it is.
 

Gunfingers

Happiness Incarnate
I like how your "evidence" is all based in biology, and the facts you misinterpret have as much experimental support as the rest of the field, but everything that disagrees with you is a "theoretical assumption".
1. Mitochondrial Eve demonstrates all of mankind alive today are related to and descendant from a single female as told in the bible. This evidence supports creation and requires theoretical assumptions to provide support for toe.There is no evidence of cohorts other than by theoretical modelling.
Do some reading, eh?

2. Y chromosome Adam, demonstrates we are all related to and descendant from the one male, There is no evidence to suggest that there were cohorts other than theoretical modelling.
See, here it is again. If we found genetic evidence that humans have no single common ancestor since our spit with chimps you'd call it theoretical modeling, but because you think y-chromosome Adam supports your view his existence cannot be called into question. It doesn't matter that he lived 100k years after MtDNA Eve, it doesn't matter that there are fossils of humans from all Africa dating to that era, all that matters is that if you squint really hard it looks like y-chromosome Adam supports Genesis.

3. The Y chromosome in the human and chimpanzee males are remarkably and unexpectedly different to each other and comparable to a chicken and human at 310 million years of divergence.. Hence further proof that Chimps and humans are not related. Your attempts to explain why the Y chromosomes are so different is theoretical. The fact that they are very different supports chimps and humans being created individually.
Painted Wolf, i gotta leave this one to you. The article i found on google requires some manner of subscription, so i have to way of knowing what the hell she's talking about this time.
4. An abundance of life is shown to arise during the Cambrian period. This is the evidence and this is proof of creation. Anything else apart from this evidence are hypothetical assumptions. Evolutionists attempts to assert ancestry to the Precambrian creation have failed. Researchers are unable to provide anything more than assumptions and hypothesis re oxygen levels and why such a plethora of life suddenly begins to appear at the one time. Many Precambrian creatures still exist today..
Here's some some pre-cambrian life. It was almost all microscopic back then, so no one is surprised that fossils are hard to come by.
5. Mankind appears fully formed. This is evidence for creation. Researchers attempts to show ancestry through the fossil record to chimpanzees have failed. The constant debate and reclassification of fossil evidence along with proof that homo cranial features are not unique to the homo line, invalidate any attempt to prove ancestry through morphological similarity. Genomic information is reliant on fossil evidence to inform same and hence is not a reliable source of data. Evolutionary moves away from smooth transitions to staged evolution to resolve the fossil evidence have also failed. Your attempts to tie bipedal walking to brain increases have failed. Your attempts to tie humans to knuckle walkers have failed. Your attempts to classify bipedal walking as a move to humanness have failed.

Skeleton after skeleton of pre-human hominids are found, human chromosome 2 can be shown clearly to be two fused chromosomes that other hominids have, and you think we just appear "fully formed"? We're not even fully formed now unless you think it's normal that we're the only animals in the world that can't walk for several months after birth.

6. The search for Last Universal Common Ancestor (LUCA) has failed and no longer ties all life to a single LUCA. This supports creation. Your assumption in relation to horizontal gene transfer remain controversial and provide no substance other than assumptions and hypothesis as to why there is no LUCA. The fact is simply, there is no LUCA and that is evidence in favour of creation.
I'm not aware of any attempt to find the one organism from which life originated. How would one even go about that? It's like looking for a needle in a haystack, except the needle was disintegrated.
7. Researchers have now shown that the sharing of genes means little in the understanding of what makes humans special or other creatures unique. It is about gene expression and gene families. The fact that a human and a plant share genes is proof of common design, and not ancestry.
Expression of genes is important to how we appear, but looking at genes, expressed or otherwise, is important to determining ancestry. It's how paternity tests work, and is considered accurate enough to get a conviction in court without corroborating evidence.
The whole "common design" conceit is almost comical. Why would humans and plants share a common design? Our functions are vastly different. It'd be like making computers out of wood, because you want to use the same design you used for houses.
Even more damning are the examples of dissimilar functions in similar environments. For example Dolphins live a very similar lifestyle to fish. Why would they ever be designed with lungs instead of gills? A Good designer would have given them gills, so they wouldn't have to worry about drowning in the only environment they can survive in. Also why do they have the same bones in their flipper that you have in your arm?
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
Hey there creationists. There is a stack of evidence for creation. We do not have to worry at all. The problem is differentiating the theoretical from the evidence.

I've been talking about the theoretical assumptions that currently supports Toe as opposed to the evidence that supports creation.

Below is some evidence for creation that evolutionists are unable to refute, other than by distractions, asides or more theoretical assumptions..

Some evidence for creation. The evidence supports creation. The assumptions and theoretical hypothesis are all that support evolution.

1. Mitochondrial Eve demonstrates all of mankind alive today are related to and descendant from a single female as told in the bible. This evidence supports creation and requires theoretical assumptions to provide support for toe.There is no evidence of cohorts other than by theoretical modelling.

2. Y chromosome Adam, demonstrates we are all related to and descendant from the one male, There is no evidence to suggest that there were cohorts other than theoretical modelling.

3. The Y chromosome in the human and chimpanzee males are remarkably and unexpectedly different to each other and comparable to a chicken and human at 310 million years of divergence.. Hence further proof that Chimps and humans are not related. Your attempts to explain why the Y chromosomes are so different is theoretical. The fact that they are very different supports chimps and humans being created individually.

4. An abundance of life is shown to arise during the Cambrian period. This is the evidence and this is proof of creation. Anything else apart from this evidence are hypothetical assumptions. Evolutionists attempts to assert ancestry to the Precambrian creation have failed. Researchers are unable to provide anything more than assumptions and hypothesis re oxygen levels and why such a plethora of life suddenly begins to appear at the one time. Many Precambrian creatures still exist today..

5. Mankind appears fully formed. This is evidence for creation. Researchers attempts to show ancestry through the fossil record to chimpanzees have failed. The constant debate and reclassification of fossil evidence along with proof that homo cranial features are not unique to the homo line, invalidate any attempt to prove ancestry through morphological similarity. Genomic information is reliant on fossil evidence to inform same and hence is not a reliable source of data. Evolutionary moves away from smooth transitions to staged evolution to resolve the fossil evidence have also failed. Your attempts to tie bipedal walking to brain increases have failed. Your attempts to tie humans to knuckle walkers have failed. Your attempts to classify bipedal walking as a move to humanness have failed.

6. The search for Last Universal Common Ancestor (LUCA) has failed and no longer ties all life to a single LUCA. This supports creation. Your assumption in relation to horizontal gene transfer remain controversial and provide no substance other than assumptions and hypothesis as to why there is no LUCA. The fact is simply, there is no LUCA and that is evidence in favour of creation.

7. Researchers have now shown that the sharing of genes means little in the understanding of what makes humans special or other creatures unique. It is about gene expression and gene families. The fact that a human and a plant share genes is proof of common design, and not ancestry.
.

I am not looking for more theoretical assumptions to refute the above points. Creationists have heard it all before.

The evidence supports creation. The theoretical assumptions support TOE. It is a sad fact that the evidence happens to support creation and assumptions are required to give evolutionary context, but it is just the way it is.
Sorry... all this is your much ballyhooed "theoretical evidence".

You can't use it without being a hypocrite.... which I already told you. So, you must be ready to admit to it now yeah?

You can't say some evidence counts because you happen to like it and then dismiss the rest of the evidence because it's just as theoretical as your happy info.
You are still just going :ignore:.

wa:do
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
gunfingers said:
Painted Wolf, i gotta leave this one to you. The article i found on google requires some manner of subscription, so i have to way of knowing what the hell she's talking about this time.
Sorry, it's just that lame "theoretical evidence" stuff that newhope says is so useless.

I'm sure newhope will come up with some non-theoretical "real science" any post now. :D

wa:do
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Well, newhope, I explained to you in terms a middle-schooler could understand exactly how and why you cannot begin to look for evidence until you first come up with a hypothesis. What hypothesis do you think any of this evidence for? And remember:

HOW. HOW. HOW. NOT WHO, HOW?
 

newhope101

Active Member
I like how your "evidence" is all based in biology, and the facts you misinterpret have as much experimental support as the rest of the field, but everything that disagrees with you is a "theoretical assumption".

Do some reading, eh?
There is no need to be rude. I am glad you like the fact that my evidence is based in biology. That is in sharp contrast to having a science that requires assumptions to convert the evidence into a mystery.

See, here it is again. If we found genetic evidence that humans have no single common ancestor since our spit with chimps you'd call it theoretical modeling, but because you think y-chromosome Adam supports your view his existence cannot be called into question. It doesn't matter that he lived 100k years after MtDNA Eve, it doesn't matter that there are fossils of humans from all Africa dating to that era, all that matters is that if you squint really hard it looks like y-chromosome Adam supports Genesis.
Hey..your researcher invent this stuff. I am not responsible. I'm not sure what you're on about here. Your dating system is flawed. It is theoretical modelling that changes like the wind that is your evidence. What is flavour of the month as far as split time, these days?

Painted Wolf, i gotta leave this one to you. The article i found on google requires some manner of subscription, so i have to way of knowing what the hell she's talking about this time.
Yeah I thought as much!
Here's some some pre-cambrian life. It was almost all microscopic back then, so no one is surprised that fossils are hard to come by.

So do you think I have not read this link? Do you think this is clever ...just posting a link? Please identify what in the link you propose as evidence of one kind turning into another kind, which is the point. Rather the evidence is many life forms appear quickly, just as one would expect with the creation. There are many creatures from the precambrian here with us today as one would expect. All this evidence is in line with creation. There is no confusion. It is your problem to provide evidence of evolution from kind to another kind and you have not and neither do these sites you refer to. If I have missed some evidence rather than theoretical assumption, please point them out to me.. Rather these sites confirm that there is no evidence and only probably, perhaps and maybe. Which, may I point out, is not evidence. Too bad the site speaks nothing to evidence of any kind evolving into another kind. It is assumption and hypothesis. The fact is ...new life appeared rapidly in the cambrian, the rest is theoretical. What came from whom, is what you do not know and just make assumptions about.

As for your homonid fossils they could be anything from Lluc's decendants to gorilla's, like Lucy. Now you have Ardi, knuckle walking ancestry, Lluc and flat faced primates your fossils could be anything and are all delusional irrefutable evidence of the past.. I think researchers are grabbing at straws.

Skeleton after skeleton of pre-human hominids are found, human chromosome 2 can be shown clearly to be two fused chromosomes that other hominids have, and you think we just appear "fully formed"? We're not even fully formed now unless you think it's normal that we're the only animals in the world that can't walk for several months after birth.
Again where is your evidence. These links look convincing yet they contain no evidence. What you have is human chromosome 2 that is non existant in chimps and other primates. The only way you are able to explain it is to say it is the result of evolution. We now know similar means nothing at all when it comes to gene families.
Note near identical, they are no really identical just close enough, according to researchers. However, now with gene expression, I wonder if this is more than meets the eye. These genes remain similar in chimps, orangutangs and gorillas. Our common ancestor predates the divergence of chimp, gorrilla and orangutang now. yet these three other species managed to 'evolve' the same 2p/2q set up independently as well as their knucklewalking. Do you think Ardi had human chromosome 2?
Wiki chromo2.
The correspondence of chromosome 2 to two ape chromosomes. The closest human relative, the chimpanzee, has near-identical DNA sequences to human chromosome 2, but they are found in two separate chromosomes. The same is true of the more distant gorilla and orangutan.[5][6]

The fact that it apears the same as 2 chimp chromosomes fused is generaly accepted yet you have no proof. Plants contain FoxP2, yet we did not evolve from a plant and a plant does not use this gene for language or intelligence. What you DO have is evidence of the vast differences in the chimp and human Male Y chromosome. I think there has been way too much hype about similarities and not enough hype about the differences.

I'm not aware of any attempt to find the one organism from which life originated. How would one even go about that? It's like looking for a needle in a haystack, except the needle was disintegrated.
Of course you are not now, but you most certainly had the lovely LUCA waving it around as irrefutable evidence of ancestry of all life. It sounded great at the time also. LUCA is out it appears, now. However, I'll repeat it again you have evidence of life appearing in bursts in the Cambrian. You do not have evidence that anything evolved into anything. Without evidence to show ancestry the evidence you happen to have supports creation.
Expression of genes is important to how we appear, but looking at genes, expressed or otherwise, is important to determining ancestry. It's how paternity tests work, and is considered accurate enough to get a conviction in court without corroborating evidence.
Don't worry about our great great grandparents. Your genetics is very time limited and relies on the fossil evidence much more than people realise. Rather there is much work such as that on FOXP2 that shows how similar it is in neanderthal, but how very, very different it is in chimps in what it does and how it is expressed. I agree genetic similarities are really not similarities at all. For example there is research counting similarity differently that put the chimp/human comparison at 94%. putting humans out of the concept of same clade with the chimp.
I have another that suggests if you take the Y chromosome and all the deletions etc into account there is a 30% difference between human and chimps. The evidence for human chromo 2 pales into irrelevance when other differences are considered. Go figure!

The whole "common design" conceit is almost comical. Why would humans and plants share a common design? Our functions are vastly different. It'd be like making computers out of wood, because you want to use the same design you used for houses.
You are confirming what I said. The fact that we share similar gene with other organisms can be the result of many things other than ancestry. The appearance of say FOXP2 in plant, human and chimp means nothing at all in relation to evolution. Additionally, your genetic distancing is biased with the presumption of ancestry implied in the modelling.
Even more damning are the examples of dissimilar functions in similar environments. For example Dolphins live a very similar lifestyle to fish. Why would they ever be designed with lungs instead of gills? A Good designer would have given them gills, so they wouldn't have to worry about drowning in the only environment they can survive in. Also why do they have the same bones in their flipper that you have in your arm?
Traits have been proven to arise individually. This means little.

This is not a convincing argument. You cannot presume to know what a God would or would not wish to do. One may also ask why did evolution not invent a new gene in the plant to perform the functions that FoxP2 does. The thing is it didn't. It used a similar gene to perform a different function, showing common design, not the evolution of genes.
 
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outhouse

Atheistically
This is not a convincing argument. You cannot presume to know what a God would or would not wish to do. One may also ask why did evolution not invent a new gene in the plant to perform the functions that FoxP2 does. The thing is it didn't. It used a similar gene to perform a different function, showing common design, not the evolution of genes.

this thread is about providing evidence for creation.

try and stay on topic we dont want this thread moved or deleted
 

newhope101

Active Member
Sorry... all this is your much ballyhooed "theoretical evidence".
Yes that is correct. It is derived by various means that involve computer modelling and the use of probabilities. Lets not forget in lets say your dating methods humand chimp divergence has gone from 4 million to 8 million years ago as well as dates in between. It is this theoretical assumptions that support toe. You do have some evidence in amongst all that theory. However, the majority, if not all of it, support and is in line with creation.
You can't use it without being a hypocrite.... which I already told you. So, you must be ready to admit to it now yeah?
Being nasty again. Where is the forum police? You are free to refute Mteve or any of the other evidence I have used that you feel also relys on assumptions. I agree, most of what is seen is biased with the presumption of ancestry,and may end up going into the rubbish bin with knucklewalking ancestry, LUCA, bipedal walking being a human trait, bipedal walking being a brain size thing, flat facial features being solely human, Lucy being the great ancestor until she became a gorilla again etc. As I said feel free to assert what you feel is based solely on theoreetical modelling as I do believe in the end it is all rubbish and researchers really do not know quite what they are looking at. Rather it is more about flavour of the month.
You can't say some evidence counts because you happen to like it and then dismiss the rest of the evidence because it's just as theoretical as your happy info.
You are still just going :ignore:.

You are free to ignore me if you're bored. I am quite entertained by posters inability to provide evidence for their theory other than the theoretical.

wa:do

So are you saying in the end poor old Mteve may be just a figment of your researchers imagination like all the other delusionary evidence that has since proven false? I'll go along with that.
 
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