Crimes by Priests

[robtex]

I still don't see the Vatican perpetuating a cover up in any of these Robtex. Especially the deplorable incidents in Rwanda. The Pope condemned the participation by the priests and such. Blaming ALL Catholics or even the Catholic church for the sins of these bigots is the SAME type of thinking that condemned all Jews for killing Jesus. It's just not right.

1) It is my understanding that the romans were alleged to have killed Jesus. However that statement is a red herring. It has nothing to do with crimes of the church

2) Nobody brought up the two crusades which were genocide attempts on muslims.

3) The catholic church having info on all of these incidents to varying degrees does not get the luxury of a neurtal position. Either they knew and aided in the capture and or punishment of said crimes or they knew and didn't cooperate thus retarding any efforts. There is no neutral position they can take. Extending the time it takes to solve cases in my book is retardation and makes the church an accessory.

http://www.medievalcrusades.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades

 

[Scuba Pete]

I'm sorry Robtex,

1) The fallacious concept that "Jews" are responsible for Jesus' death is a very real and DANGEROUS reality. No, they didn't do the deed but apparently a few asked for his death. This reality doesn't stop bigots from blaming them for it and using that to justify a holocaust. In the same vein, we don't need to blame all Catholics for the acts of a few. We can't blame the Vatican for actions taken by some to sheild their friends.

2) We are discussing modern history: I don't think that he is trying to blame priests for the Crusades.

3) I did not get that out of ANY of the articles that you posted. The Vatican in fact, deplored the various atrocities as they should. If Manson were an athiestl, would that infer that all athiests are amoral murderers? Let's not make the same mistakes over and over again.

 

[Pah]

...
Pah, you don't like me: I get it. Would you like me to leave again?

I like you a lot Pete - it's your debate style and propensisty to claim bigotry that I don't care for. I wish you'd stay.

 

[robtex]

1) Christians and the holy righteous Hitler caused the holocost. The Nazi party was an appeasement to a christian theocracy.

2) Even sticking with modern history the catholics are guilty of organized crime.


3) The vatican knew what was happening in Rwanda long before anyone else did in the secular world. Reports go in and out of the vatican on missionary work. The vatican only "deplored" the acts when the rest of the world learned and cut the "loose cannon" loose only after his crimes came to light.

I did make a mistake about the nun. She left the church before committing her crime and they had no idea where she was or her involvement.

If mason was a member of the council of secular humanism, acted under them and the council of secular humanism hid or hindered investigation I would fault the council.

I find it odd you walk out of a church for being pro-war and than fight tooth and nail for a church with as strong of a history of crime as the mafia, or any motorcyle outlaw gang. What gives with that?

Here read about Cardinal Alfredo Ottaviani :
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/08/06/eveningnews/main566978.shtml

here a priest kills a nun
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/4/28/114222.shtml
11 priest (aka organized crime) made a sex offender ring out of a chicago church
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/9/26/213051.shtml

another priest committing murder
http://www.gazetteextra.com/funeralhomeslayings100405.asp

I could google this all night. It only leads to one conclusion. The catholic church takes care of its own and sees itself above the law of secular man. Plain and simple. If they all belong to an organization and committ crimes over and over and over it is safe to assume at some point that the organization is a beacon of orgainzed crime.

 

[Ryan2065]

And no, there has been no evidence of a systematic cover up by the Catholic church.

From Post #19

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003...ain566978.shtml
http://www.bishop-accountability.or...NewsBishops.htm
http://www.boston.com/globe/spotlig...p_spotlight.htm
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_n...1001812,00.html

From first link...

Bishops are instructed to pursue these cases "in the most secretive way...restrained by a perpetual silence...and everyone {including the alleged victim) ...is to observe the strictest secret, which is commonly regarded as a secret of the Holy Office...under the penalty of excommunication."

From second link

Roughly two-thirds of top U.S. Catholic leaders have allowed priests accused of sexual abuse to keep working, a systematic practice that spans decades and continues today, a three-month Dallas Morning News review shows. The study - the first of its kind - looked at the records of the top leaders of the nation’s 178 mainstream Roman Catholic dioceses, including acting administrators in cases where the top job is vacant.

Headline of the 3rd link is

[font=times new roman,times,georgia,serif][size=+2]Priest says church sought to cover up suit against him[/size][/font]

And finally, the last link...

[font=Geneva,Arial,sans-serif]British church authorities stand accused of covering up a catalogue of sexual assaults on women by clergymen.[/font]

I should just stand by and let this anti-Catholic vendetta happen. I am not Catholic, and I can just shake my head and be glad it's not happening to me. But allowing this bigotry to go unchallenged would make a mockery of all I stand for. I wouldn't sit by if they did the same to agnostics or atheists either. It's just wrong.

Get off your high horse... And please if people attack the agnostics this way, and by this way I mean with evidence, please do not jump in and attack whoever is bringing the allogations instead of actually debating the topic and the evidence presented.

Again, it would be nice if you would actually debate the evidence presented instead of attacking the people presenting it.

 

[Feathers in Hair]

Hey, guys, let's please remember to keep the tone civil! I know this is a very heated issue, but if we remember to treat each other as we would wish to be treated... no, wait, that won't work with those who really enjoy intense debate...

I love and respect the posters in this thread, so, well, here's hoping this might work. After you've written out a post, even if you're replying to someone who's said something unkind to you, please picture a person you like a lot who's very sensitive, whomever that might be. Then, imagine that person reading the post you just wrote as if it were directed at them. If there's anything you think that would hurt their feelings, delete it, or replace it with a less harsh phrase. That helps me a lot, when I'm responding to something I feel passionate about.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Go ahead... your propensity to justify your religious bigotry simply boggles my mind. If yo mama didn't larn you any differnt, then how can I hope to illuminate the obscene.

As a non-Catholic, I would like to ask that the Catholics realise that not everyone thinks you are the spawn of Satan and responsible for all of the evil in the world. And please, please forgive those who do: they ain't got a stinking clue.

There is nothing more for me to say, so I bow out of this trollish thread.

 

[Pah]

There are 228 U.S. Catholic Dioceses according to the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops http://www.usccb.org/dioceses.htm

Acording to Special Reports: Catholic Bishops and Sex Abuse http://www.bishop-accountability.org/resources/resource-files/databases/DallasMorningNewsBishops.htm there were 109 Biships involved in cover-ups.

Without cross-referencing the Biships to Dioceses, I'll eliminate 10 percent of the bishops as possibly being from the same diocese, This leaves 98 bishops involved and assuming 98 dioceses involved.

So, adjusted for multiple bishops in the same diocese, 43.4% of the American Church was involved in cover-ups.

I welcome authoritative adjustment of the numbers and correction of my counting or division. See if it makes a significant difference.

 

[Ryan2065]

Go ahead... your propensity to justify your religious bigotry simply boggles my mind. If yo mama didn't larn you any differnt, then how can I hope to illuminate the obscene.

So you believe that no cover up of sex crimes has happened at all in the Catholic Church in the recent past? You do realize that many Catholics even believe this happened, let alone non-Catholics. You seem to be blinded by your wanting to look PC rather than wanting to be right.

As a non-Catholic, I would like to ask that the Catholics realise that not everyone thinks you are the spawn of Satan and responsible for all of the evil in the world. And please, please forgive those who do: they ain't got a stinking clue.

Thats real nice NetDoc, with friends like you the Catholics don't really need enemies... 3 people posted facts, and instead of trying your best to protect the Catholics by debating the facts, you decided to attack the people posting, hoping the facts would go away. If this is the only way you can debate this topic, ie peronal attacks, then I would believe most people reading this thread will go away believe the Catholic Chuch has done most of the things it is accused of.

 

[Quiddity]

For reasons that are not so obvious [ ] people felt the need to continue. I know it makes great television and gossip but very few people know the tiny details that makes the world of difference to many. But it's much easier to say "we messed up" to people who already see the Church as wrong or the spawn of Satan, then to explain details of every diocese.

~Victor

 

[Pah]

For reasons that are not so obvious [ ] people felt the need to continue. I know it makes great television and gossip but very few people know the tiny details that makes the world of difference to many. But it's much easier to say "we messed up" to people who already see the Church as wrong or the spawn of Satan, then to explain details of every diocese.

~Victor

"We messed up" might be an acceptable answer to one or two instances of being wrong. However, 43 percent (or more) is systematic.

 

[Quiddity]

"We messed up" might be an acceptable answer to one or two instances of being wrong. However, 43 percent (or more) is systematic.

Thanks for further showing my post as true. What persistance.

~Victor

 

[Scuba Pete]

Victor,

The Anti-Catholic agenda is as deplorable as it is insistent. I wonder which group is next?

 

[Quiddity]

Victor,

The Anti-Catholic agenda is as deplorable as it is insistent. I wonder which group is next?

Perhaps, it will be extended to all Christianity. I pray not. One group is too much.

~Victor

 

[Scuba Pete]

To some degree it already has. This has been a complaint of mine for some time.

 

[jeffrey]

To some degree it already has. This has been a complaint of mine for some time.

It's been going on for awhile. At least we don't get fed to lions anymore. (Even though I am sure there are a few in this forum that would reval at the thought).

 

[BUDDY]

While I agree with all of you that the actions by these priests are not and should not be indicative of all catholics, I think that the Catholic Church has had and continues to have a big problem with child molesters among the clergy, and they don't seem to be taking the actions necessary to put an end to it. Recently a Catholic priest has been accused by numerous people up here in Alaska of sexual assault and misconduct, and some have even accused the church of sending this man up to Alaska to get him away from more highly populated areas in the lower 48. While these charges have not been proven, it points to an on going issue within the church of not policing its own.

http://www.adn.com/news/alaska/story/7163141p-7072417c.html

 

[Quiddity]

To some degree it already has. This has been a complaint of mine for some time.

That's true.

~Victor

 

[Pah]

Thanks for further showing my post as true. What persistance.

~Victor

Victor,

The Anti-Catholic agenda is as deplorable as it is insistent. I wonder which group is next?

Ad hominems will not solve the systemic problems with the Catholic Church - nor is it good debate style. I'm reminded of the mythical behavior of the ostrich and the posture that image portrays.

 

[BUDDY]

Ad hominems will not solve the systemic problems with the Catholic Church - nor is it good debate style. I'm reminded of the mythical behavior of the ostrich and the posture that image portrays.

In other words, "If you ignore it, it will go away." I agree.

Perhaps, it will be extended to all Christianity. I pray not. One group is too much.

I hope that it is extended to any group that does nothing concerning it's members sexual abuse of children. It is not wrong to call something what it is, but it is wrong to ignore a problem and hope it goes away.