Critical Race Theory: definitions and concerns

[Kooky]

Generally the law provides protection against the kind of discrimination which impacts a person's life.. So if it does get to the point of impacting your life there exists legal remedies.

In what way does US law provide protection against redlining, inequal distribution of housing and jobs, the endemic criminalization of Black neighbourhoods and the clear and present threat the police represents to poor Black people and Black men specifically?

My impression was that for most of America's history, "the law" was an important instrument in implementing racial discrimination in the first place, and that Americans seem to get incredibly cross whenever somebody points this out to them.

I understand but I suspect this pushback is exactly what conservatives what. Keeps it in the news.

Mainstream media is predictable in its behavior and will keep it in the news for as long as conservative politicians and pundits are screaming about it (that is, until they find a more effective fictional threat to rage against). My impression here is that what leftist academics are doing will be largely irrelevant here, since they are at best an unimportant factor in US politics with zero influence on the American media landscape.

 

[Nakosis]

In what way does US law provide protection against redlining, inequal distribution of housing and jobs, the endemic criminalization of Black neighbourhoods and the clear and present threat the police represents to poor Black people and Black men specifically?

Protections Against Discrimination and Other Prohibited Practices

My impression was that for most of America's history, "the law" was an important instrument in implementing racial discrimination in the first place, and that Americans seem to get incredibly cross whenever somebody points this out to them.

Fortunately, we are not in those historical times.

Mainstream media is predictable in its behavior and will keep it in the news for as long as conservative politicians and pundits are screaming about it (that is, until they find a more effective fictional threat to rage against). My impression here is that what leftist academics are doing will be largely irrelevant here, since they are at best an unimportant factor in US politics with zero influence on the American media landscape.

I never really saw leftist academics as being part of the picture.

 

[Nakosis]

Nope.

So you think this unproven theory ought to be implemented? Ok, I don't.

Can you perhaps elaborate on what kind of "practical experience" is going to help implementing antiracist policies, exactly? So far this feels overly vague and not at all like a feasible grounding for actual policy that's going to be implemented by communities or institutions.

No more vague than CRT. However, capitalism and business education. Ideally, support of a business mentoring program.

It's always facile to blame people's misery on their own choices; a staggering portion of the world's population apparently "chose" to be poor and oppressed.

Not my argument, in fact I agree changes need to be made. CRT however IMO is not the answer to the problem.

 

[Nakosis]

I think you are correct. It is a sort of political murder/suicide. The Republicans seem determined to sabotage democracy and any sort of honesty in discourse. They have no ideas to propose that appeals to the average citizens and can only be creative in causing damage.

Ok, well I'm not here to defend republicans.

 

[F1fan]

So you think this unproven theory ought to be implemented? Ok, I don't.

Why not? What is problematic in your understanding?

CRT isn't really a theory in the scientific sense. It is a set of observations, facts, and an argument about racism being prevalent in many subtle and overt ways in USA society. And what we are seeing conservatives doing is NOT responding the the arguments in CRT, but misrepresenting what it says and means. This disinformation is propaganda to help deepen the social bias that CRT describes.

I want to hear those who oppose CRT to make clear challenges to actual things CRT argues. To read arguments like "CRT doesn't help" or "Isn't the solution" misses the point, as CRT doesn't necessarily propose solutions, it just explains the racial bias that exists subtly and overtly in US culture. It's up to citizens to acknowledge that racism exists, is a huge problem, and then decide if we, as a nation, want to change. Thus far conservatives are working very hard to not change, nor even acknowledge there is a problem. Ironically that is what CRT explains.[/QUOTE]

 

[Nakosis]

Why not? What is problematic in your understanding?

CRT isn't really a theory in the scientific sense. It is a set of observations, facts, and an argument about racism being prevalent in many subtle and overt ways in USA society. And what we are seeing conservatives doing is NOT responding the the arguments in CRT, but misrepresenting what it says and means. This disinformation is propaganda to help deepen the social bias that CRT describes.

I want to hear those who oppose CRT to make clear challenges to actual things CRT argues. To read arguments like "CRT doesn't help" or "Isn't the solution" misses the point, as CRT doesn't necessarily propose solutions, it just explains the racial bias that exists subtly and overtly in US culture. It's up to citizens to acknowledge that racism exists, is a huge problem, and then decide if we, as a nation, want to change. Thus far conservatives are working very hard to not change, nor even acknowledge there is a problem. Ironically that is what CRT explains.

It is what it attempts to explain.
So let me ask you this, where do Asians fit into CRT?
They were enslaved, imprisoned in the US for just being Asian. Face an increasing amount of hate crime but for some reason are doing so well in this racist society universities bias test score against Asian so that if you are White, you actually have an advantage over Asians.
A look at the data and arguments about Asian-Americans and admissions at elite colleges | Inside Higher Ed

How does CRT explain the success of Asian Americans in a White dominated society?

 

[F1fan]

It is what it attempts to explain.
So let me ask you this, where do Asians fit into CRT?
They were enslaved, imprisoned in the US for just being Asian. Face an increasing amount of hate crime but for some reason are doing so well in this racist society universities bias test score against Asian so that if you are White, you actually have an advantage over Asians.
A look at the data and arguments about Asian-Americans and admissions at elite colleges | Inside Higher Ed

How does CRT explain the success of Asian Americans in a White dominated society?

Asians have enjoyed a lot more acceptance in the USA over the last century. There's no doubt that Asians have suffered more prejudice in recent years. This seems to be an extension of the general white supremacy that is most energized by racial bias against black people. trump's rise has been an endorsement of hate and intolerance, and that extends to many different groups. Even white protestant liberals are facing intolerance and hate. Any group that can be defined and vilified is under attack by conservatives. Open minded school board members. Ethical election board members. Muslim members of congress.

Do you not observe this happening?

CRT deals with the effects of the long term racial bias of black Americans and their history and fight for equality since the Civil War. That other racial groups and other categories of liberalism are also being affected just tells us how important CRT is to inform students about intolerance in America.

 

[Nakosis]

Asians have enjoyed a lot more acceptance in the USA over the last century. There's no doubt that Asians have suffered more prejudice in recent years. This seems to be an extension of the general white supremacy that is most energized by racial bias against black people. trump's rise has been an endorsement of hate and intolerance, and that extends to many different groups. Even white protestant liberals are facing intolerance and hate. Any group that can be defined and vilified is under attack by conservatives. Open minded school board members. Ethical election board members. Muslim members of congress.

Do you not observe this happening?

I don't pay that much attention to politics. To me, it is like a gang war. Just a fight for power/control.

CRT deals with the effects of the long term racial bias of black Americans and their history and fight for equality since the Civil War. That other racial groups and other categories of liberalism are also being affected just tells us how important CRT is to inform students about intolerance in America.

So I understand CRT from the 60s? Perhaps they could learn something from studying the success of Asians. Maybe it's time to reevaluate. What did Asians do different?

 

[icehorse]

And it's not really a theory like you'd find in the social science. It is a set of arguments that are based on well formulated examples of racism, and ongoing effects of that racism even in present times.

I'm using this post, but really there are many in this thread that would work equally well...

My point in creating this thread is pretty simple:

Racism is a serious problem, CRT is a bad solution.

It seems like a LOT of CRT is devoted to reminding us of the problem. That in itself is not a solution.

 

[icehorse]

Asians have enjoyed a lot more acceptance in the USA over the last century.

Have you forgotten about the California Alien Land Law and internment camps?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

It is what it attempts to explain.
So let me ask you this, where do Asians fit into CRT?
They were enslaved, imprisoned in the US for just being Asian. Face an increasing amount of hate crime but for some reason are doing so well in this racist society universities bias test score against Asian so that if you are White, you actually have an advantage over Asians.
A look at the data and arguments about Asian-Americans and admissions at elite colleges | Inside Higher Ed

How does CRT explain the success of Asian Americans in a White dominated society?

Simple.

For almost 100 years, America engaged in numerous acts of internment and forced repatriation of its Asian population, and very strictly limited (if not outright ceasing) all immigration from a number of Asian countries into the USA. As a result of this, by the time these laws were repealed America's Asian population was effectively zero.

Once these immigration laws were repealed around the time of the civil rights movement in the sixties, Asian families finally had the option to immigrate to the USA again. As a result, the vast majority of the Asian population of the USA today are not people who have descended from families who had to live through countless oppressive laws (like the majority of the black population of America), but are instead second or third generation immigrants who descended from people who moved to America from Asia in the last 60 years or so. Naturally, these were families wealthy enough, and with enough financial incentive, to move to the USA, and therefore were already set up with a direct financial benefit that a lot of black communities did not, as they continued to live and suffer through oppressive laws and didn't CHOOSE to live in the USA.

In other words, the fact that the Asian Americans do better on average than white Americans is actually a direct result of decades of racist anti-Asian immigration policies, and a perfect example of how economic policy leads to long-standing differences and outcomes based along racial lines.

 

[Nakosis]

Simple.

For almost 100 years, America engaged in numerous acts of internment and forced repatriation of its Asian population, and very strictly limited (if not outright ceasing) all immigration from a number of Asian countries into the USA. As a result of this, by the time these laws were repealed America's Asian population was effectively zero.

Once these immigration laws were repealed around the time of the civil rights movement in the sixties, Asian families finally had the option to immigrate to the USA again. As a result, the vast majority of the Asian population of the USA today are not people who have descended from families who had to live through countless oppressive laws (like the majority of the black population of America), but are instead second or third generation immigrants who descended from people who moved to America from Asia in the last 60 years or so. Naturally, these were families wealthy enough, and with enough financial incentive, to move to the USA, and therefore were already set up with a direct financial benefit that a lot of black communities did not, as they continued to live and suffer through oppressive laws and didn't CHOOSE to live in the USA.

In other words, the fact that the Asian Americans do better on average than white Americans is actually a direct result of decades of racist anti-Asian immigration policies, and a perfect example of how economic policy leads to long-standing differences and outcomes based along racial lines.

Ok, this is your theory. Does anyone in the CRT academia address this?

 

[Kooky]

Protections Against Discrimination and Other Prohibited Practices

Then I guess antiracists can pack up and go home, since racial discrimination has already been solved.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Ok, this is your theory. Does anyone in the CRT academia address this?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/2027.42/63048/297_ftp.pdf;sequence=1&ved=2ahUKEwi49_XVpNL0AhUBZMAKHdJ-CsUQFnoECBAQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3AQkqSl0QI_AJ7r7s--0ak

Funnily enough, this essay uses the exact argument you used as an example of people generalizing the experiences of Asian Americans in order to respond to or rebuff the idea of America being systemically racist.

Also, what I wrote was not "my theory". It is fairly demonstrable that when you remove an entire ethnic group from your country and then replace them with members of that ethnic group who had the means and incentive to move to your country by choice, they are going to be in a better financial and social position than most - if not all - other ethnic demographics. This is no more "theoretical" than saying "kicking someone out of your home and then replacing them with someone who has a lot of money and education will result in the person you now live with having a lot of money and education".

 

[Nakosis]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/2027.42/63048/297_ftp.pdf;sequence=1&ved=2ahUKEwi49_XVpNL0AhUBZMAKHdJ-CsUQFnoECBAQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3AQkqSl0QI_AJ7r7s--0ak

Funnily enough, this essay uses the exact argument you used as an example of people generalizing the experiences of Asian Americans in order to respond to or rebuff the idea of America being systemically racist.

Well at least they agree that they need further research.

Also, what I wrote was not "my theory". It is fairly demonstrable that when you remove an entire ethnic group from your country and then replace them with members of that ethnic group who had the means and incentive to move to your country by choice, they are going to be in a better financial and social position than most - if not all - other ethnic demographics. This is no more "theoretical" than saying "kicking someone out of your home and then replacing them with someone who has a lot of money and education will result in the person you now live with having a lot of money and education".

Sorry, I cant agree with your assessment.
People are immigrating from many countries including "Blacks". CRT in the past has focused on a limited group of individuals. I'm glad to see they are willing to do further research but I hope that includes a reevaluation of their initial assumptions.

They seem to focus one one "Asian" group to support their assumptions. I hope they branch from what seems to a continued limited focus.

What evidence do you have that an entire ethic group was removed?
What evidence do you have that immigrants have any financial or social advantage over ethnicities which have been in the US over several generations.

Your argument, the argument of these academics are fill with assumptions which basically begs the argument of the entire theory.

If you read the link you provided, they even say they are making an argument, not providing facts. So if you want to buy into the theory great, if not, that's just as viable.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Well at least they agree that they need further research.



Sorry, I cant agree with your assessment.
People are immigrating from many countries including "Blacks". CRT in the past has focused on a limited group of individuals. I'm glad to see they are willing to do further research but I hope that includes a reevaluation of their initial assumptions.

They seem to focus one one "Asian" group to support their assumptions. I hope they branch from what seems to a continued limited focus.

What evidence do you have that an entire ethic group was removed?
What evidence do you have that immigrants have any financial or social advantage over ethnicities which have been in the US over several generations.

Your argument, the argument of these academics are fill with assumptions which basically begs the argument of the entire theory.

If you read the link you provided, they even say they are making an argument, not providing facts. So if you want to buy into the theory great, if not, that's just as viable.

I see no point in trying to teach you an entire history and sociology degree. If you're just going to dismiss anything put in front of you without looking in to it, you have obviously already made up your mind want you want to believe and don't really care what facts inconvenience your position. Japanese internment is well known about. The Chinese and Asian exclusion acts are well known about. The advantage of being an economic migrant over a naturalized and statistically poor demographic is obvious. I should not have to laboriously pore over pages of data for you to accept that these things are real.

Please do not waste my time expecting me to teach you things which you are most likely just going to refuse to learn.

 

[Nakosis]

I see no point in trying to teach you an entire history and sociology degree. If you're just going to dismiss anything put in front of you without looking in to it, you have obviously already made up your mind want you want to believe and don't really care what facts inconvenience your position. Japanese internment is well known about. The Chinese and Asian exclusion acts are well known about. The advantage of being an economic migrant over a naturalized and statistically poor demographic is obvious. I should not have to laboriously pore over pages of data for you to accept that these things are real.

Please do not waste my time expecting me to teach you things which you are most likely just going to refuse to learn.

I'm not expecting you to teach me anything. Just pointing out the flaws in the argument provided. No body is going to force you to address them.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Why not? What is problematic in your understanding?

CRT isn't really a theory in the scientific sense. It is a set of observations, facts, and an argument about racism being prevalent in many subtle and overt ways in USA society. And what we are seeing conservatives doing is NOT responding the the arguments in CRT, but misrepresenting what it says and means. This disinformation is propaganda to help deepen the social bias that CRT describes.

I want to hear those who oppose CRT to make clear challenges to actual things CRT argues. To read arguments like "CRT doesn't help" or "Isn't the solution" misses the point, as CRT doesn't necessarily propose solutions, it just explains the racial bias that exists subtly and overtly in US culture. It's up to citizens to acknowledge that racism exists, is a huge problem, and then decide if we, as a nation, want to change. Thus far conservatives are working very hard to not change, nor even acknowledge there is a problem. Ironically that is what CRT explains.

[/QUOTE]

 

[F1fan]

[/QUOTE]
So you think this is an honest and accurate rebuttal? This is desperate. There's a reason you can't defend the disinformation and attacks by the right wing.

 

[F1fan]

I'm using this post, but really there are many in this thread that would work equally well...

My point in creating this thread is pretty simple:

Racism is a serious problem, CRT is a bad solution.

It seems like a LOT of CRT is devoted to reminding us of the problem. That in itself is not a solution.

CRT is explaining why there is subtle racism in US culture. It needs to be pointed out to students because most will not be aware of this racism because it is so subtle and often expressed against minorities is not obvious to the average citizen.

As far as a solution the best approach is to make citizens aware of the implicit racism in society so they can be informed when they make decisions about politics. I'm not sure if you are conservative, but it is typical of conservatives today to ignore the problems many minorities experience and try to move on as if these problems of racism will just work out on their own. But it is the ignorance that will help maintain the racism. It's no surprise that Republicans can't get a significant number of minority votes.