Critical Race Theory?

[Saint Frankenstein]

I'm just interested to hear what people think about this idea? (it's in the news again)

It's just rehashed neo-Marxist garbage, and is racist itself.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Black activists will surely not consider the far rights view of racism as honest, and the far right will certainly not consider what black activists work for as necessary or honest. Those fighting for freedom tend to have the better case in any argument, and in the USA we see daily stories about how black people face ongoing discrimination. Banning the voices of that history is how conservatives respond, not acknowledging there is still a problem, and that is why the right fails.

Please stop acting like black people have some sort of hive mind and are all far-left Black Panther types. That is racist, itself. Black people have all sorts of views. Many are conservatives and voted for Trump, themselves. As for "in the USA we see daily stories about how black people face ongoing discrimination", you need to consider the source of your "news" and how corporate media may have their own agenda to sell.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Conservatives are having the biggest problem with black voices, but that's tough **** and their problem. Trying to silence the voices, or limit their freedom to speak, or cancelling them, is more of the irony of the evolving conservative narrative these days. Conservatives really can't cope with diversity or diverse voices that challenge their idealistic and narrow view of how things should be.

Lmao, like Candace Owens? Oh, wait...

 

[Debater Slayer]

I just don't agree with it. I believe there are subtle biological and genetic differences between races that affect things to an extent.

It should not be taught as a fact in a classroom in a nation that prides itself on freedom of speech and thought.

Depending on what you mean by "affect things to an extent," your belief is factually incorrect:

Does “race” still mean something?
The divisions between races are doubtlessly blurred, but does this necessarily mean that race is a myth—a mere social construct and biologically meaningless? As with other race-related questions, the answer is multi-dimensional and may well depend on whom you ask.

In the biological and social sciences, the consensus is clear: race is a social construct, not a biological attribute. Today, scientists prefer to use the term “ancestry” to describe human diversity (Figure 3). “Ancestry” reflects the fact that human variations do have a connection to the geographical origins of our ancestors—with enough information about a person’s DNA, scientists can make a reasonable guess about their ancestry. However, unlike the term “race,” it focuses on understanding how a person’s history unfolded, not how they fit into one category and not another. In a clinical setting, for instance, scientists would say that diseases such as sickle-cell anemia and cystic fibrosis are common in those of “sub-Saharan African” or “Northern European” descent, respectively, rather than in those who are “black” or “white”.

How Science and Genetics are Reshaping the Race Debate of the 21st Century - Science in the News

Hopefully, as a self-proclaimed freethinker, you wouldn't support presenting unscientific statements as legitimate in the classroom.

 

[George-ananda]

Depending on what you mean by "affect things to an extent," your belief is factually incorrect:



How Science and Genetics are Reshaping the Race Debate of the 21st Century - Science in the News

Hopefully, as a self-proclaimed freethinker, you wouldn't support presenting unscientific statements as legitimate in the classroom.

i see you think your opinion on the subject is the right opinion. So do I. We both have so-called experts to name-drop.

I'll stick with my 'No' vote in the OP survey and neither of us are alone or will settle anything once and for all. We'll continue on our merry ways but Critical Race Theory is basically calling current America an inherently racist society.

Here is the definition of Critical Race Theory from the Encyclopedia Britanica:

Critical race theory (CRT), intellectual movement and loosely organized framework of legal analysis based on the premise that race is not a natural, biologically grounded feature of physically distinct subgroups of human beings but a socially constructed (culturally invented) category that is used to oppress and exploit people of colour. Critical race theorists hold that the law and legal institutions in the United States are inherently racist insofar as they function to create and maintain social, economic, and political inequalities between whites and nonwhites, especially African Americans.

Geez, those White Americans sound awfully bad there. Really? What century are we talking about?

 

[Debater Slayer]

i see you think your opinion on the subject is the right opinion. So do I. We both have so-called experts to name-drop.

It isn't an individual opinion; the scientific consensus on the subject is that race is indeed a social construct or at least a practically meaningless concept. You're free to disagree with the science, but your opinion would be factually incorrect. Scientific consensus is not equal in merit or value to an unscientific opinion.

I'll stick with my 'No' vote in the OP survey and neither of us are alone or will settle anything once and for all. We'll continue on our merry ways but Critical Race Theory is basically calling current America an inherently racist society.

Here is the definition of Critical Race Theory from the Encyclopedia Britanica:

Critical race theory (CRT), intellectual movement and loosely organized framework of legal analysis based on the premise that race is not a natural, biologically grounded feature of physically distinct subgroups of human beings but a socially constructed (culturally invented) category that is used to oppress and exploit people of colour. Critical race theorists hold that the law and legal institutions in the United States are inherently racist insofar as they function to create and maintain social, economic, and political inequalities between whites and nonwhites, especially African Americans.

Geez, those White Americans sound awfully bad there. Really? What century are we talking about?

I don't know enough about critical race theory to talk about it, but there are multiple pointers that indicate the U.S. is indeed a racist state in more than one way. I'm sure it's far better than it was in the '60s or '80s, but the issue of systemic racism is still far from resolved at this point in time.

 

[George-ananda]

It isn't an individual opinion; the scientific consensus on the subject is that race is indeed a social construct or at least a practically meaningless concept. You're free to disagree with the science, but your opinion would be factually incorrect. Scientific consensus is not equal in merit or value to an unscientific opinion.

Well, I believe decedents of the trans-Atlantic African slave trade are better sprinters on average than Japanese people. And I don't see how a social construct alone could create that situation. Just one little example. I think a Bell Curve of such abilities with different center points explains it much better.

I don't know enough about critical race theory to talk about it, but there are multiple pointers that indicate the U.S. is indeed a racist state in more than one way. I'm sure it's far better than it was in the '60s or '80s, but the issue of systemic racism is still far from resolved at this point in time.

Nobody is claiming the world will ever be perfect but I am sure you read the excerpt I just supplied. That is insulting to 2021 White America and quite a distortion of reality IMO.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I believe decedents of the trans-Atlantic African slave trade are better sprinters on average than Japanese people.

It's just certain African ethic groups that possess the physical characteristics suited to sprinting and such. West Africans, Central Africans, East Africans, etc. are all different peoples and biologically distinct. So it's more complicated than saying that "black people are better at running". It's not a monolithic thing.

 

[F1fan]

Yes, and the average, non-racist person of any ethnicity would find a fair amount of it ridiculous.

Well that would explain why they are the student. But that's OK because I think you made this up. I doubt you have any stats to back top your claim.

What do you think they are trying to teach?

As a whole the point of CRT is to explain the racism that exists in institutional and social and economic parts of American society, and how the history of the USA has affected all this.

Are there things taught under the banner of CRT that you think are harmful or counterproductive?

i had lunch with a friend who is a professor of sociology at KU and asked him his assessment as a professional and academic. he acknowledged there are a few academics who go too far in what they teach and say. But as a whole most all sociology includes CRT. He explained that there's no way to teach the social sciences without addressing racism in a society.

Or do you think it's all great and will improve social harmony?

You're asking all or nothing questions which indicates you're not sincere, nor confident that your criticism is warranted.

There are always a few people in ANY education system, political system, working environment, military service, sports teams, etc. that cause problems for the rest. Conservatives have a very weak critical approach in that they expect liberals to be perfect, and if they cannot be, then they must bow out. And all while conservatives few if any good and progressive ideas.

I never said anything about banning, but there are certainly things in CRT that I would find very problematic if taught to children as they are both dubious and highly ideological.

No, but some red states have. And thus far you;ve presented no actual; argument or problem with teaching CRT except for the disinformation by right wing media. They say CRT is to teach white people to be ashamed of being white. That is false.

What do you think of black people who oppose CRT? Racist idiots too?

Just as there are a few examples of bad professors there are a few examples of black people advocating against their own interests, like Candice Owens. These people get a lot of attention from right wing media and they love it.

Can you imagine why many black parents don't want their children told they are oppressed victims from an early age?

Maybe so they won't think they should be oppressed today in a nation that has a lot of racism at it's core, and even elect racist politicians.

 

[F1fan]

You are certainly free to have your own perspective, but I think in actuality white liberal progressive are so much more bigoted and condescending to people of color, especially Blacks and Hispanics.

Well if you are correct why do we see more diversity among democrats than republicans in congress? Republicans in congress are mostly white, Christian men. Explain.

 

[Wandering Monk]

CRT: the Right Wing's new punching bag. Seems like they haven't got any other fish to fry and are desperately trying to change the subject from insurrection on January 6 to anything else.

 

[F1fan]

Please stop acting like black people have some sort of hive mind and are all far-left Black Panther types. That is racist, itself. Black people have all sorts of views. Many are conservatives and voted for Trump, themselves. As for "in the USA we see daily stories about how black people face ongoing discrimination", you need to consider the source of your "news" and how corporate media may have their own agenda to sell.

As we do in many of these topics I'm referring to the most prevalent and popular views of any given category or group. There is a certain irony of black conservatives in the USA. but they have their own personal reasons to stand their ground socially and politically, and it does defy certain larger truths, and the big picture of a USA that still doesn't;t have freedom and equality for all citizens.

 

[Shaul]

Critical thinking spawned Critical Race Theory, which begs the question: what spawned your expected opposition?

Critical thinking didn’t spawn critical race theory. A total lack of it did. Just like your post.

Ideological and agenda driven “science” and “history” fail because of the congenital flaws of their premises. Critical race theory will fail just like “Soviet science” did and join it in the dustbin of time.

 

[F1fan]

Critical thinking didn’t spawn critical race theory. A total lack of it did.

Give us some examples.

 

[George-ananda]

It's just certain African ethic groups that possess the physical characteristics suited to sprinting and such. West Africans, Central Africans, East Africans, etc. are all different peoples and biologically distinct. So it's more complicated than saying that "black people are better at running". It's not a monolithic thing.

OK, nothing there I wasn't aware of but my point is that there are differences that can't be explained as social constructs. If race, or lets just call it ethnicities and more closely related ethnicities were all just social constructs then there would be no reason to expect any differences in outcomes like sprinting.

I'll shock many further by saying that I believe Ashkenazi Jews are more intellectually gifted on average than most if not all other ethnic groups. (I'm not Jewish by the way). It's just my best reasoning from all the facts and argumentation I've considered. None of this would be true if race was just a social construct in the nice perfectly fair world of the Critical Race Theorists.

And I am aware that it is all complicated by many things as you say. I've been listening to these discussions for decades.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I'll shock many further by saying that I believe Ashkenazi Jews are more intellectually gifted on average than most if not all other ethnic groups.

I have heard this before, but its a bad example. They are genetically very mixed. An ethnic group yes but a genetic group no. The way they rear their kids is different, and this explains things well enough.

There are some good examples of genetic specialization in island humans. For example one group has better eyesight under water than people from anywhere else in the world. It helps them, because they have a lot of aquatic activities.

Differences among human groups are slight differences, so I don't see any solid case for separate races. I see one human race currently. That could change, but for now we are all one genetic group.

 

[InChrist]

Well if you are correct why do we see more diversity among democrats than republicans in congress? Republicans in congress are mostly white, Christian men. Explain.

I didn’t necessarily refer to Republicans or Democrats, rather conservatives and liberals. I realize there’s a lot of overlap, but not all conservatives are Republicans, they may be Independents or Libertarians. Anyway, it seems like more women and people of color are switching over to Republican , so I expect we’ll continue to see diversity increase.

 

[Yerda]

CRT: the Right Wing's new punching bag. Seems like they haven't got any other fish to fry and are desperately trying to change the subject from insurrection on January 6 to anything else.

The news cycle will rotate back to demonising immigrants pretty soon and the vast majority of these halfwits will move on to explaining that it is infact the people who oppose treating immigrants badly who are the real racists.

 

[Stevicus]

It should be addressed in the correct manner. For some reason the modern woke culture completely disagrees with Martin Luther King for example when he talked about a color blind society. No, we don't want that now do we? We want everyone to constantly obsess over race. It's seriously harmful for everyone but we do it; because we profit by it.

Yes, this is something I've heard recently as a new part of the narrative, which is definitely a profound change from earlier times (1960s and 70s) when a color blind society was encouraged. I'm not sure when this reversal took place or what the reason for it was, but this is definitely an aspect which requires greater explanation, elaboration, and justification.

In order for racism to end, there absolutely must be a color blind society based on the principle that all humans are equal and must be treated the same. Anything else is an attempt to put the cart before the horse.

 

[epronovost]

I'll shock many further by saying that I believe Ashkenazi Jews are more intellectually gifted on average than most if not all other ethnic groups. (I'm not Jewish by the way). It's just my best reasoning from all the facts and argumentation I've considered. None of this would be true if race was just a social construct in the nice perfectly fair world of the Critical Race Theorists.

Strange considering Ashkenazi Jews aren't actually more gifted than any other group once one controls for education, socio-economical status and health. In other words, they are pretty much average bloke with a group of them finding themselves at the cornerstone of history giving themselves an excellent edge for academic success. The only "genetic" marker that has tenuous link to possible higher intelligence is the fact Ashkenazi Jews are more likely to carry a hereditary disease which might cause a mutation which would be beneficial for intelligence though evidence for the link between the disease and higher intelligence is scant at best and the disease itself rare amongst Ashkenazi Jews though less rare than in other ethnic groups. Even if it were completely true, it would still be a spotlight fallacy to declare Ashkenazi more intelligent due to that fact. Deriving judgement from statistical average with widdely swinging variable that aren't uniformaly distributed is duplicitous.

The fact that intelligence itself is hard to pin down is also a big problem. The only workable and well known metric of it is the IQ and the IQ measurements themselves aren't all that accurate, especially in older data since IQ tests were refined tremendously in the last 30 years. It also ignores completely the domain of epigenetic in the development of humans which is an enormous problem in and itself. Even if you could demonstrate that you were "born smart", it would not necessarily be due to your genes and thus your ethnic background. It could be down to your physical environment while in utero and during the early childhood.