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Critics of atheism please come forward.

PureX

Veteran Member
Are you saying that Atheists should chase down every possible God, even ones that haven't been invented yet, and try to disprove them? Don't many religions claim that their God is the only God and that all other gods are false? Do you require them to disprove all other gods as well? We only disbelieve one more God than they do.
My point is that atheism is the disbelief of the theist's proposition. To believe there is no God is a contradiction of terms. If there is no God, then beliefs regarding gods is irrelevant. Once the theist's proposition vanishes, atheism becomes moot. Atheism only exists as a reaction to theism. Without it's antagonist, theism, it has no content of it's own.

This is why if I ask an atheist to define the God he claims not to believe in, he must use a theist's definition. Because without the theist's idea of God, the atheist has no god to disbelieve in. In fact, his position has no content whatever. Even the label "atheist" depends on "theist" for it's content.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I'd argue that this isn't an accurate representation of the circumstance. It's not just as likely that a god exists as it is that one doesn't. You're correct in suggesting that the actuality of a god can not be disproved but the merit of the god hypothesis can be examined and determinations can be made as to the probabilities of its accuracy.
The only way we can establish the probability of the existence of a God is if we claim that God has some effect on the world in which we live, that we could detect. And indeed some religions make such a claim, and can thus be argued with on those grounds.

However, most religions claim that God is the source of ALL that exists, and that the nature of existence itself is the "will of God". If this is the case, then there is no possible backdrop against which the effect of God could be quantified, because EVERYTHING is the effect of God.

Once our definition of "God" includes the infinite, our ability to quantify the effect of God's existence (so as to establish probability of that existence) is lost to us. And this is why I say that the probability that God exists is exactly the same as the probability that God does not exist: because such probability cannot possibly be established once we define God's existence as infinite, which almost all people do, these days.
Supernatural claims are a dime a dozen and if science were able to examine, test, and retest just one of them and subsequently come to the determination that it was legitimate, the merit of the god hypothesis would benefit tremendously. But the fact remains that not a single purported supernatural events has ever been substantiated even though James Randi and his scientist colleagues have a million dollars waiting for the first person who can present to them a supernatural phenomenon that can be studied, tested and substantiated. Needless to say, the money is still up for grabs.
Yes, you can successfully argue against claims of "supernatural phenomena" using reasoned probability. But this argument does nothing to support or deny the existence of "God". You can rattle a few religious believers, by poking at their irrational superstitions regarding God and their belief that God performs "supernatural" feats, but all you've done is argue against a minor aspect of religious idealizations of God. You will have done nothing to actually discredit the assertion that God exists.

To successfully argue that God does not perform "supernatural" feats is not the same as successfully arguing that God does not exist. These are two separate claims.

I believe in the existence of a "God", but I do not believe that God performs supernatural feats, defying physical laws and altering the course or flow of existence. And in fact it's exactly because God does not meddle in the flow of existence that we can't "detect God", and therefor can't quantify God's effect and establish a probability for God's existence. God IS the source and flow of all existence. So it would be irrational for God to meddle with that flow. To do so would be God countermanding Itself.
The scale isn't balanced. Evidence in favor for the god hypothesis is limited to the subjective experience of the individual.
No it's not. The "evidence" for my God-concept is all of existence.
Including science. Existence itself is the "body of God". The way existence expresses itself is "God's nature/will" and my part in this divine expression is my "relationship" with God. It don't get more "real" then that.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Actually, there is strong scientific evidence that no gods exist.
Please show us this scientific evidence. I suspect the scientific world would be fascinated to see it!
There is no credible evidence that any god exists. Science makes known the evidence against godly existence
Again, please show us this scientific evident that God does not exist!
As mentioned earlier, science does provide argument to show gods do not exist.
Arguments are not evidence. One can argue anything. We need to see the evidence backing up the argument.
Further, the theological arguments we employ are quite valid to show that theological thoughts are created by man and carry no divine input.
I would very much like to see how it has been scientifically established that man's ideas express no "divine input".
Although at times in history, religion has provided a social "glue" that furthered evolution and does provide a personal refuge. But, on the other hand, religion has played the largest part in human suffering.
Religion has not played the largest part in human suffering. Nature plays the largest part in human suffering.
Imagination and intuition only starts the process of validating a truth. In the case of gods, it has not reached the certainty of truth.
Because human beings are not omniscient, we can never be certain of a proposed truth. Certainty would require omniscience. We cannot validate a truth. We can only establish a reasoned probability of truthfulness.
If you have more, I'd like to help correct them.
These should keep you very busy for some time. *smile*
 

ayani

member
LogDog, would you mind going over my previous posts and answering my criticisms? i'd like to dialogue with you, if that's ok.

free4all said:
I think it's impossible to be a true atheist - everybody worships something, it is written in the heart of man. I don't care where you go, deepest depths of the jungle, they will be worshipping someone or something.

my response:

that is an interesting perspective... i like the phrasing "written on the heart of man".

i'd say that people have a deep desire innately to believe in something, to adhere to a philosophy, teaching, or perspective that gives life meaning. atheism can be one of these perspectives. logdog certainly spends alot of time here, passionately making his points and backing his stances. if it wasn't so important to him, he wouldn't have as much to say. same with all of us, really.

i think there is an innate drive within us to seek out meaning, connections, relationships, and to understand or map the nature of the world (social, natural, spiritual, etc.) Viktor Frankl called this the "will to meaning", as oppsed to the "will to power" or the "will to pleasure".

so... one critique of atheism would be that some atheists go out of their way to critique or attack the (spiritual) world views of others, while allowing for their own passionately defended world view (which also ultimately confronts the spiritual).
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
Actually, there is strong scientific evidence that no gods exist. There is no credible evidence that any god exists. Science makes known the evidence against godly existence

Actually, science deals with the falsifiable and therefore is not equipped to address the existence of any god. You may as well use mathematics to prove a poem. It would make as little sense.

I have great affinity for the atheist point of view, in that in the absence of strong evidence of other sorts for the existence of god, it would make more sense not to believe.

Further, the theological arguments we employ are quite valid to show that theological thoughts are created by man and carry no divine input.

All theological arguments for the existence (or non existence) of God are fallacious.
Religious faith is best compared to a child's belief in Santa.

Hardly. Santa is falsifiable. All one need do is stay up on a Christmas Eve and observe who puts the presents out.
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
I am not a critic of atheism at all. What rouses my internal critic is when atheists use the same arguments the religious use to "convert" the masses to Evangelical Atheism.

Regards,
Scott
 

Alex_G

Enlightner of the Senses
All i shall say in Atheisms defence is that is is not defined by a Theists beliefs (even though we have the unlucky fortune of the word A-theism:p). Its the understanding of what exists minus the theists ideas, not the pure rebellion to a theists belief. Like i said before its chauvinistic to think like that. Atheism would not disappear if God was disproven...it would just become the obious choice of stand point.

Most dont believe in the Greek gods like Zeues and Herra, the Egiptian gods like Raa, or Nordic gods like Loki?
As kungfuzed suggested, everone is atheist to most gods. The only difference is, we take it one God further.

(i left individual quotes out of this because it seems to just provoke a reflex pounce by the person(S). :))
 
Is Dawkins zealously preaching and disseminating the gospel of atheism or is he simply defending a position?

You're not insinuating that the methods of atheism's most vocal advocates compare to the methods of christianity's most vocal advocates are you?

I am.

I admit, I sympathize with those sceptics on this site who fear that we are engendering a quasi-religious conformity of our own. Whether we like it or not, I'm afraid we have to swallow this small amount of pride if we are to have an influence on the real world, otherwise we'll never overcome the 'herding cats' problem.

I included this quote from Dawkins own writing in my previous post. Keywords include "quasi-religious", and "influence". I'm sure you're not insinuating that Dawkins wishes a quasi-religious group to influence others to spread the word and gain some political power just to defend their position.

~matthew.william~
 
Actually, there is strong scientific evidence that no gods exist. There is no credible evidence that any god exists. Science makes known the evidence against godly existence

Okay, you've intrigued me. You have found evidence for the non-existence of something. The scientific world will be revolutionized!

As mentioned earlier, science does provide argument to show gods do not exist. Further, the theological arguments we employ are quite valid to show that theological thoughts are created by man and carry no divine input.
Your arguments should be factual if scientific, not theological. How would one prove that the idea of God is not divinely inspired?

Although at times in history, religion has provided a social "glue" that furthered evolution and does provide a personal refuge. But, on the other hand, religion has played the largest part in human suffering.
Actually, communist countries who oppose religion/God probably have the upper-hand. If you'd like more information on that statement, let me know.

Imagination and intuition only starts the process of validating a truth. In the case of gods, it has not reached the certainty of truth.
How can one be certain of anything? Even important scientific concepts are not certain, but generally viewed as truth until evidence suggests that it is in no way possible.

~matthew.william~
 

Hope

Princesinha
My problem with Ray and Kirk is that they claim to have the truth, but are often laughably misinformed. Take "The Atheists Nightmare," for example: YouTube - Kirk Cameron And Bananas

And then watch "The Atheists Nightmare Debunked" :YouTube - Atheists nightmare debunked. Ray Comfort/Kirk cameron

Funny stuff.

I'll grant you the whole banana thing was stretching it a bit, but the atheists' response to the origin of the universe is also laughable. Two objects collided?? But where did those objects come from?:p
 

darkpenguin

Charismatic Enigma
I'll grant you the whole banana thing was stretching it a bit, but the atheists' response to the origin of the universe is also laughable. Two objects collided?? But where did those objects come from?:p

The same place any planets/galaxies etc come from... Who knows? Apart from a state of mind and mass belief do you know where your God comes from?
I'm not wanting to belittle your statement or you and I respect your beliefs, I just thought I'd provide a little 'food for thought' so to speak.
 

Hope

Princesinha
The same place any planets/galaxies etc come from... Who knows? Apart from a state of mind and mass belief do you know where your God comes from?
I'm not wanting to belittle your statement or you and I respect your beliefs, I just thought I'd provide a little 'food for thought' so to speak.

You've provided no new "food for thought" for me. :p You're not belittling my statement either----rather you're revealing the weakest "link" in the argument for belief in atheism. Those who believe in God do not make the claim that God has to come from anywhere. He is simply eternally existent, and the ultimate cause for the universe.

Atheism, on the other hand, has nowhere to ultimately turn to to explain how the universe came into being from nothing. Your only resort is to say the universe, or matter, is eternally existent just as we claim God is eternally existent. But, then, that doesn't really work either, when current theories show that the universe had a definite beginning sometime in the very distant past.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Hey! We just got a penguin trifecta!

That convinces me. Nothing that improbable could happen by chance. The theists must be right. :D
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
You've provided no new "food for thought" for me. :p You're not belittling my statement either----rather you're revealing the weakest "link" in the argument for belief in atheism. Those who believe in God do not make the claim that God has to come from anywhere. He is simply eternally existent, and the ultimate cause for the universe.
You don't think the claim that God has just always been there requires support as well?

Atheism, on the other hand, has nowhere to ultimately turn to to explain how the universe came into being from nothing.
Same with theism; it just postpones the big questions one extra step... and then often ignores them entirely.

Your only resort is to say the universe, or matter, is eternally existent just as we claim God is eternally existent. But, then, that doesn't really work either, when current theories show that the universe had a definite beginning sometime in the very distant past, and matter has to have a beginning too.
That doesn't mean that "I don't know what happened before the Big Bang, but the range of alternatives presented by theism seem very unlikely" isn't a reasonable position.
 

Hope

Princesinha
You don't think the claim that God has just always been there requires support as well?

Nope. Because ultimately, like I said before, something, or someone, has to have eternal, uncaused existence. Otherwise you have infinite regression. I could say ok, someone created God----but who created that someone who created God? And then who created him/her? Get my drift? So those of us who believe in God simply say He is the end all, and be all. The buck stops with Him. Not that complicated really, and very logical. :D

Same with theism; it just postpones the big questions one extra step... and then often ignores them entirely.

See above answer.

That doesn't mean that "I don't know what happened before the Big Bang, but the range of alternatives presented by theism seem very unlikely" isn't a reasonable position.

I didn't say it wasn't reasonable---it merely has its weaknesses. And this is good to point out, especially when so many atheists claim belief in God is unreasonable or irrational. Theism is no more unreasonable or irrational than atheism. I would even venture to say theism is more rational, and more reasonable.
 
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