Cross-Dressing

[roger1440]

Alright, I know someone out there is gonna faint or crap his pants because Rival is saying this, but it concerns me.

Why does seeing a man wearing a dress and lipstick bother us? We see women in trousers, skirts, dresses, dungarees, shorts, with or without makeup, whatever they want; but the minute a man walks down the street in a skirt and lipgloss he's standing out?

Does not compute.

Maybe cause his outfit doesn't match.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Salaam,

I just want people to go along with their cultural background in public.

Why?

When it comes to my beliefs, I believe it is wrong and don't approve of it specially for Muslims.

Why?

Wassalaam

 

[idav]

I personally prefer men to act manly and women to act... err... womanly!

Heck thats generally the case for people here in the states where woman pretty much have their freedoms and are probably getting ready to emasculate the lot of us, if that hadn't already happened.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Salaam,
Why?
Why?
Wassalaam

Peace to you too.

Nothing special. I want people to get along with their cultural background in public because it is my preference. It gives me the feeling of having an organized society that follows standards. Cultures have standards to follow to keep their identity. I personally like that.

As for my beliefs, it is just that I have the sense of right and wrong and prefer the right over the wrong. Nothing special here too. I'm Muslim and I believe Islam teaches us to act according to our gender/sex. That's another subject; i.e. Islam and gender/sex identity. Please don't extend it here and gt off-topic. If you wish, you can start another thread about it.

But I repeat, those are all in my mind. Nothing forceful to anyone.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Heck thats generally the case for people here in the states where woman pretty much have their freedoms and are probably getting ready to emasculate the lot of us, if that hadn't already happened.

Hold on to your job

 

[idav]

Hold on to your job

Just trying to hold on to my pair before the wife keeps them for good.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Salaam,

It gives me the feeling of having an organized society that follows standards. Cultures have standards to follow to keep their identity. I personally like that.

Where do cultures and their standards come from?

As for my beliefs, it is just that I have the sense of right and wrong and prefer the right over the wrong. Nothing special here too. I'm Muslim and I believe Islam teaches us to act according to our gender/sex. That's another subject; i.e. Islam and gender/sex identity. Please don't extend it here and gt off-topic.

This thread is about cross-dressing, and therefore questions of gender identity. You identify as a Muslim and believe that Islaam teaches us to act according to 'our gender/sex'. I identify as a Muslim and believe otherwise (wrt this thread, I don't have any problem with cross-dressing). With all due respect, that seems to me to be very much on topic. Why can I not challenge you on that here?

Wassalaam

 

[Smart_Guy]

Just trying to hold on to my pair before the wife keeps them for good.

*GULP*

 

[yiostheoy]

Alright, I know someone out there is gonna faint or crap his pants because Rival is saying this, but it concerns me.

Why does seeing a man wearing a dress and lipstick bother us? We see women in trousers, skirts, dresses, dungarees, shorts, with or without makeup, whatever they want; but the minute a man walks down the street in a skirt and lipgloss he's standing out?

Does not compute.

It is sickening because of what it implies about the cross dresser.

The cross dresser could be male or female actually.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Salaam,

Where do cultures and their standards come from?

This thread is about cross-dressing, and therefore questions of gender identity. You identify as a Muslim and believe that Islaam teaches us to act according to 'our gender/sex'. I identify as a Muslim and believe otherwise (wrt this thread, I don't have any problem with cross-dressing). With all due respect, that seems to me to be very much on topic. Why can I not challenge you on that here?

Wassalaam

Peace to you too.

My culture comes, or better my community standards come, from Islam.

Very well, it is not off-topic

If challenge is all you're looking for, then this is the last post with you. I'm here to share, not to challenge, and I never intend to impose my beliefs on others (are you?) Take me as I'm wrong, I don't mind. But anyway, I didn't say I have a problem with cross-dressers, I just don't approve of the act. That's a huge difference. Or are you trying to change my feelings in what I believe? I said my beliefs don't approve of it. You have other beliefs in it, I respect that.

 

[Rival]

It is sickening because of what it implies about the cross dresser.

What does it imply?

 

[yiostheoy]

What does it imply?

That someone is playing a game of pickup.

 

[YmirGF]

Personally, though I have never indulged in it, I have nothing against cross-dressing... though I do think these examples are going a bit far.

or this...

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Peace to you too.

My culture comes, or better my community standards come, from Islam.

Very well, it is not off-topic

If challenge is all you're looking for, then this is the last post with you. I'm here to share, not to challenge, and I never intend to impose my beliefs on others (are you?) Take me as I'm wrong, I don't mind. But anyway, I didn't say I have a problem with cross-dressers, I just don't approve of the act. That's a huge difference. Or are you trying to change my feelings in what I believe? I said my beliefs don't approve of it. You have other beliefs in it, I respect that.

Salaam,

I understand that your culture/community standards come from your (and many other Muslims') perception of what Islaam is. But where do cultures and their standards more generally come from? How do new ones arise?

With respect, it is in the nature of debate to challenge other people's views and the basis for them. I'm not trying to impose my beliefs on you (or anyone else). But I do wish to challenge the notion that there is only one version of Islaam. I also wish to challenge the notion that cross-dressing is wrong (both in Islaam and more generally). And insofar as I believe it is wrong to say that cross-dressing is wrong, then of course I wish to change your feelings about this (since you appear to believe that cross-dressing is wrong), though not by compulsion, of course. I appreciate that you respect that I hold different beliefs to you (on this, and likely a whole bunch of other things). However, as I'm sure you appreciate, both people like me (I am genderqueer and pansexual) and our beliefs and how we (would like to) live our lives are typically not respected by (other) Muslims and in Muslim societies (and indeed other societies around the world, to a greater or lesser extent). Indeed, we typically live in fear of being ostracised at best, and of being harmed or killed at worst, for the simple wish to be open about who we are and to live as we choose (without doing harm to others). So it stands to reason that I would want to change this. You don't want to have a debate about this, fine. That is of course your right. So I will leave what I have to say about this here (with you) at that.

Wassalaam

 

[The_Fisher_King]

That someone is playing a game of pickup.

What do you mean by this?

 

[Smart_Guy]

Salaam,

I understand that your culture/community standards come from your (and many other Muslims') perception of what Islaam is. But where do cultures and their standards more generally come from? How do new ones arise?

With respect, it is in the nature of debate to challenge other people's views and the basis for them. I'm not trying to impose my beliefs on you (or anyone else). But I do wish to challenge the notion that there is only one version of Islaam. I also wish to challenge the notion that cross-dressing is wrong (both in Islaam and more generally). And insofar as I believe it is wrong to say that cross-dressing is wrong, then of course I wish to change your feelings about this (since you appear to believe that cross-dressing is wrong), though not by compulsion, of course. I appreciate that you respect that I hold different beliefs to you (on this, and likely a whole bunch of other things). However, as I'm sure you appreciate, both people like me (I am genderqueer and pansexual) and our beliefs and how we (would like to) live our lives are typically not respected by (other) Muslims and in Muslim societies (and indeed other societies around the world, to a greater or lesser extent). Indeed, we typically live in fear of being ostracised at best, and of being harmed or killed at worst, for the simple wish to be open about who we are and to live as we choose (without doing harm to others). So it stands to reason that I would want to change this. You don't want to have a debate about this, fine. That is of course your right. So I will leave what I have to say about this here (with you) at that.

Wassalaam

Hmm, not sure really. My community tries to culturally stay with Islam and Islam stopped changing in the basics with the death of Prophet Muhammad. This lead to having change not being open to happen widely, but only within a small margin. That's for conservative Muslims like me.

Yes, you are welcome to challenge, and I have a choice to just share my views and excuse myself from it.

Other people who do not respect your life do not represent me. I respect your choice and your nature.

Doing what one wants as long as it does not cause harm to others is common sense and as you relate it to your beliefs, I do to mine too.

I always put a note that what I say is just sharing my beliefs and views. Sorry I forgot to say it this time.

 

[Acim]

Alright, I know someone out there is gonna faint or crap his pants because Rival is saying this, but it concerns me.

Why does seeing a man wearing a dress and lipstick bother us? We see women in trousers, skirts, dresses, dungarees, shorts, with or without makeup, whatever they want; but the minute a man walks down the street in a skirt and lipgloss he's standing out?

Does not compute.

IMO, it depends on the person. Some females don't look appealing to me wearing a dress with lipstick. I think most do, but not all. With a man, it strikes me as forced, but I wouldn't say this is true for all men.

I will say if a woman had a full grown beard, wore a dress, put on some lipstick, I'd be interested in seeing how I could find that appealing. Pretty sure I wouldn't, but wouldn't want to judge the whole book by the cover.

 

[Rival]

IMO, it depends on the person. Some females don't look appealing to me wearing a dress with lipstick. I think most do, but not all. With a man, it strikes me as forced, but I wouldn't say this is true for all men.

I will say if a woman had a full grown beard, wore a dress, put on some lipstick, I'd be interested in seeing how I could find that appealing. Pretty sure I wouldn't, but wouldn't want to judge the whole book by the cover.

But a beard is by nature masculine, clothing and makeup are not. So that doesn't really work.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I see no problem with it. Different people have different reasons for wearing what they want, and I just do not see any good that can come from being concerned and getting worked up over what someone is wearing. To me, there really isn't any difference between someone who wants to dress goth, or someone who wants to dress like a metal head, or someone who wants to dress in "normal" clothes, or someone who wants to dress in the clothes of the opposite sex.
But, there most definitely is a double standard as we do not apply the term "cross dresser" to a woman who wears men's jeans and shirts.

 

[Acim]

But a beard is by nature masculine, clothing and makeup are not. So that doesn't really work.

I think the rest of my post works (for me). I just brought up beard as example of why male in dress with lipstick wouldn't work.