I really can't think of something a female might wear that would be unattractive (to many). I don't see you emphasizing the attraction angle, but I think it relates. I do think female in tuxedo (or suit and tie) with short hair is a tad offsetting. But I can see a whole bunch of guys and gals being attracted to such a female.
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Cross-Dressing
- Thread starter Rival
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Orbit
I'm a planet
Yes, women everywhere have one goal: to cut your **** off. Give me a break.
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Maponos
Welcome to the Opera
I think there is a little more going on here than just being uncomfortable seeing a man in women's clothing.
I'll address drag queens first, seeing as they are what caused this thread.
There's a sort of separation of drag queens and cross dressers in most people's minds. Though they are both the same in what they do, the reasons they do it are very different. Most drag queens do drag for comical or campy (most often hand in hand) reasons. They usually play up a character, so we don't really see the drag queen as a cross dresser but as someone portraying a character that is a man dressed as a woman, which has often been a form of comedy.
Personally, I do find them (drag queens) to be funny and it's often interesting to see the costumes they create, but I prefer to watch them from afar.
Cross dressers, on the other hand, often have mental illnesses or are very eccentric people (in a more negative sense). I can't exactly say why, but I and many other people have a sort of revulsion towards them. Maybe its instinctual (sort of weeding out the exceedingly strange), but it's definitely there. Many 'butch' women also evoke this feeling as well. There is something vulgar in seeing a woman or man try to affect an appearance like the opposite sex or wear clothes designed for them.
Another reason is that women and men's clothing is designed for their respective body types. Seeing a man or woman in clothes designed for the opposite sex can appear kitschy.
The clothes that were originally designed or worn by men but now have feminine counterparts have been designed to compliment a woman's body shape instead of a male one, so it appears far less masculine. However, there are some outfits that have been designed for women but appear far too masculine to me (like pantsuits and tuxedos) and just look vulgar.
One of the things I like about fashion is the divide between the genders/sexes and how diverse their styles can be. I don't think appropriating clothes from either side is going to make anyone look 'cool' or feel better.
I'll address drag queens first, seeing as they are what caused this thread.
There's a sort of separation of drag queens and cross dressers in most people's minds. Though they are both the same in what they do, the reasons they do it are very different. Most drag queens do drag for comical or campy (most often hand in hand) reasons. They usually play up a character, so we don't really see the drag queen as a cross dresser but as someone portraying a character that is a man dressed as a woman, which has often been a form of comedy.
Personally, I do find them (drag queens) to be funny and it's often interesting to see the costumes they create, but I prefer to watch them from afar.
Cross dressers, on the other hand, often have mental illnesses or are very eccentric people (in a more negative sense). I can't exactly say why, but I and many other people have a sort of revulsion towards them. Maybe its instinctual (sort of weeding out the exceedingly strange), but it's definitely there. Many 'butch' women also evoke this feeling as well. There is something vulgar in seeing a woman or man try to affect an appearance like the opposite sex or wear clothes designed for them.
Another reason is that women and men's clothing is designed for their respective body types. Seeing a man or woman in clothes designed for the opposite sex can appear kitschy.
The clothes that were originally designed or worn by men but now have feminine counterparts have been designed to compliment a woman's body shape instead of a male one, so it appears far less masculine. However, there are some outfits that have been designed for women but appear far too masculine to me (like pantsuits and tuxedos) and just look vulgar.
One of the things I like about fashion is the divide between the genders/sexes and how diverse their styles can be. I don't think appropriating clothes from either side is going to make anyone look 'cool' or feel better.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Not true.
To you it may be vulgar; to others there is no vulgarity. And there is absolutely nothing instinctual about your revulsion (obviously, given many have absolutely no problem or issue with it), and you really shouldn't project your own personal feelings onto others like you are. Just because you have an issue with something doesn't mean everybody else does.
Again, that is your opinion, and many cross dressers do go for the "cool" fashion, and many of them do feel better while "cross" dressed.
It's worth pointing out that trousers were originally clothing designed for women (to cover them up) and dresses have been part of mens fashion a lot longer than they weren't. (Also pink used to be a masculine color)
What is 'mens clothes' and 'womens clothes' have no innate property of being more feminine or masculine, but only emphasis based on culture. Like so much about so-called gender roles, it's socially fabricated.
Maponos
Welcome to the Opera
Yes it is.
Doesn't this thread imply that a lot of people do, in fact, have an issue with it though? Just because you don't find it personally repugnant doesn't mean others don't. If you don't want to accept that there may actually be problems associated with it (and why many people have such strong negative reactions to it), then I don't think discussing it is for you.
This here implies there is a mental illness.
Maponos
Welcome to the Opera
Trousers have been around for thousands of years. For example, ancient Celtic warriors were well known for wearing trousers.
The dresses you are referring are most likely togas or robes which are inherently different from dresses worn by women.
Gender roles are not socially fabricated. Humanity evolved along with these gender roles because they fulfilled a role in society that helped various civilizations organize and rise above the others. It's worth noting that societies with a better idea of gender roles (however strict or not strict), are among the most advanced ones today.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
What you linked to is about transvestite fetishes. That is a completely different thing than cross dressing, and the very word "fetish" alone means it's a sexual kink that goes beyond just a kink and is needed for someone to experience sexual gratification.
So, again, not true.
Appeals to popularity is not an argument. Some people do have issues with it, but the issues are solely their own, and they should get over themselves rather than expecting others to change for them.
The only problems are those that people attach to it. And discussing it is for me as I am working towards being a clinician who specializes in sex and gender. It is for me, because my future goals include working towards doing away with the stigmas that people who cross dress are messed up in the head, and helping those that do to realize there is nothing wrong with them because they dress and/or identify as the sex that is opposite of their birth sex.
Not at all. People often feel better dressing in certain ways, and that in no way is inherently an indication of an underlying mental illness.
It's obvious they are because they often and widely vary from time-to-time, such as contemporary America compared to America 100 years ago, and from culture-to-culture, such as cultures that keep women at home and cultures that have women warriors.
That is a false claim. There is no "better" idea of gender roles, and we can look at many cultures that had wider and looser definitions of gender and accepted those who are outside of our Western black-white/female-male gender binary, and their societies are complexed and very elaborate.
And trousers have been worn by women for thousands of years. For example Scythian women were also warriors and also wore trousers, and there was no need nor presented reason for women to wear different clothes than men. And in Chinese and Malasian society, trousers were also worn by both sexes.
Nope. What we know today as 'dresses' have been part of men's clothing for a very long time. (Incidentally a toga is literally a dress. Women also wore the same 'togas' men wore.) Also women both wore the same chiton clothing as men in ancient Greece as well. And women wore the same skirted dress as men in Ancient Egypt.
There is absolutely no evidence of this. Many if not most nations both modern and ancient had huge cultural shifts where various things considered consigned to a gender changed radically. And today, the most successful nations have no limitations on male-only or female-only clothing.
Examples? Because gender roles have been mostly dispensed in incredibly successful countries like the Nordic cultures. And they're meeting lots of resistance in much of the Western world.
Maponos
Welcome to the Opera
You'll need to cite an academic source (one not written by a transvestite) to convince people otherwise.
But you were saying other people don't have a problem with it so everyone else shouldn't. Isn't that an appeal to popularity itself?
Some stigmas are there for a reason. Even historically, those who have cross dressed have exhibited bizarre behaviors. If someone can't see a problem where there is one, or they refuse to, then that is willful ignorance or dangerously unaware.
But where there are strong implications with the clothes one is wearing and there are observable deviations from normal behavior that are associated with such an activity, you must simply recognize what is happening.
One could argue civilization in the west is on the verge of collapsing, but that is another matter entirely.
You'll note that the more 'egalitarian' cultures of the past are nowhere to be seen today or are of no significance.
Could you prove otherwise? Many of the same gender roles of the Occident are observable in the developed civilizations of the Orient as well.
Maponos
Welcome to the Opera
Where are the Scythians today?
Incidentally, a toga is not the same kind of dress women wear today and women didn't wear the same kind of toga that men wore in the ancient Greco-Roman world.
You'll also note that there are different stylized versions of these outfits to suit the gender that is wearing it.
Yes, there is. The core ideas of men and women have scarcely changed until recently. Clothing isn't legally restricted to one gender, but which gender is appropriate for it is still there, whether you like it or not.
You mean recently in Nordic countries?
Britain, France, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Germany, China, Japan and many others have very clear ideas of gender and certain expectations of gender.
These days, in Western countries, they aren't so strict, but they are still there and the vast majority of people still conform to them.
Outside the internet and illicit organizations, the world still conforms to normal gender roles. In fact, gender roles and family roles are central to a civilization being successful.
Are you seriously claiming that the reason they don't exist today was because women had more equality and their dress didn't conform to other nation's gender norms? Wow. I'd love to see you prove it.
Yes, women and men wore togas (which are a kind of dress) cut from the same cloth. And much of the decoration was according to status rather than gender. In MOST of the Greco-Roman world (rather outside the wealthy) people wore the same clothing.
Except what is 'gender appropriate' is changing day by day (much faster for women than for men, unfortunately, but that's changing too). Was never concrete and never will be. It's entirely a social construct, not a biological one. Whether you like it or not.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Why do I need to do this when you source clearly states it's referring to a transvestite fetish? It's already been established on this thread there are different reasons people "cross" dress, such as drag performers and regular "cross" dressers.
No. My position is there is nothing inherently wrong with it, and any problems are the ones other people project onto it. It's not a problem with cross dressers, but with those who try to find there is something wrong with them.
Not true. You ask me to provide an academic source to counter your link that is clearly referring to a fetish, but you are not backing up any of your claims.
There is no problem with "cross" dressing.
Deviating from the norm is not inherently a problem. Left-handed people deviate from the norm by not being right-handed, but there is nothing wrong with being left-handed (other than societal norms that cater to right-handedness, but that's not a problem with being left-handed).
I don't see it on the verge of collapsing.
There are very few cultures of the past remaining, regardless of what they practiced. It's the nature of a culture to die out and be replaced. Even American culture today compared to when I was a child is very different.
And many aren't. And when we expand the scope we find that there is a great deal of variance. We can look at ancient Greece, for example, and look at Athenian women and Spartan women, and clearly see they filled different roles and positions and that Spartan women had far more privilege and power than Athenian women. Some cultures have had women farmers and some have had men farmers. Some had platoons of women warriors, and some do not allow women to serve in their military. Sometimes women hunt, sometimes men hunt, sometimes they both hunt.
Nyingjé Tso
Dharma not drama
mmyeah so first of all a big huge
DRAG QUEENS:
Often a male dressing in a very exccentric/funny/fabulous feminine way and adopting a feminine persona often starring in theatrical pieces or shows or these kind of things for entertainement purposes.
They are not crazy people with mental issues.
CROSS DRESSERS:
Because it's fun. Yeah, I mean, why the hell not ? If people just enjoy it for occasions or whatever, why judge them ? Nope, they are not mental sick people either.
Because it arouses them. It's a kink, some people do it because it sexually excites them. Some people do it occasionally during intercourse, with someone else or alone.
Because they need it. Yes, I said need. Gender and sex are two different things. Some people aren't comfortable with the more rigid social constructs of gender, and it's their right. My boyfriend is a FtM, which means a female to male transsexual. Transitionning is long, and hard, and you have years ahead before accessing to the final phalloplasty. He was VERY uncomfortable with having female clothes, a female body, to the point where it was pushing him to more and more sadness and drepression. So I gifted him men clothes and a packer. He's been dressing as a male, not by fashion, but because it was a need. A way to fully express himself, what he was deep down inside. And since then, he feels so, so much better. He gets referred as "mister" in the streets, and that often puts a huge proud smile to his face.
Is he destroying "a good society construct" whatever because of that ? Is he just a person with a mental disease ? No. And No. I have a dozen of direct exemples like this, I know a lot of people around me that crossdress for different reasons, both straight and gay, and none of them have been diagnosised with any mental disease or are some sort of outcasts or "weird" people.
These kind of things aren't a treat to anything, really, much less to society. I think, however, that it stirs some insecurities some people may have, maybe some you have too.
Crossdressing people are doing it for an infinite number of reasons, should it be for fun, for entertainement, as a need or as a kink, I don't give a damn and so should you. Let people live their lives and let's keep on trying to be decent and compassionnate human beings, that's hard enough to achieve to make a fuss over what people should or should not wear.
THANK YOU SHADOWOLF
okay now regarding what have been said in the couple last posts... Except for the whole "gender social construct meh" stuff, I may get angry. And it's not good.
DRAG QUEENS:
Often a male dressing in a very exccentric/funny/fabulous feminine way and adopting a feminine persona often starring in theatrical pieces or shows or these kind of things for entertainement purposes.
They are not crazy people with mental issues.
CROSS DRESSERS:
Because it's fun. Yeah, I mean, why the hell not ? If people just enjoy it for occasions or whatever, why judge them ? Nope, they are not mental sick people either.
Because it arouses them. It's a kink, some people do it because it sexually excites them. Some people do it occasionally during intercourse, with someone else or alone.
Because they need it. Yes, I said need. Gender and sex are two different things. Some people aren't comfortable with the more rigid social constructs of gender, and it's their right. My boyfriend is a FtM, which means a female to male transsexual. Transitionning is long, and hard, and you have years ahead before accessing to the final phalloplasty. He was VERY uncomfortable with having female clothes, a female body, to the point where it was pushing him to more and more sadness and drepression. So I gifted him men clothes and a packer. He's been dressing as a male, not by fashion, but because it was a need. A way to fully express himself, what he was deep down inside. And since then, he feels so, so much better. He gets referred as "mister" in the streets, and that often puts a huge proud smile to his face.
Is he destroying "a good society construct" whatever because of that ? Is he just a person with a mental disease ? No. And No. I have a dozen of direct exemples like this, I know a lot of people around me that crossdress for different reasons, both straight and gay, and none of them have been diagnosised with any mental disease or are some sort of outcasts or "weird" people.
These kind of things aren't a treat to anything, really, much less to society. I think, however, that it stirs some insecurities some people may have, maybe some you have too.
Crossdressing people are doing it for an infinite number of reasons, should it be for fun, for entertainement, as a need or as a kink, I don't give a damn and so should you. Let people live their lives and let's keep on trying to be decent and compassionnate human beings, that's hard enough to achieve to make a fuss over what people should or should not wear.
I see OP of this thread asking, "why do male cross dressers stand out" and then some responses saying, "they shouldn't, get over yourself."
I don't see how that makes sense. Everything that is awkward could be framed as "it's not, get over yourself."
The cases where it stands out is because of how that person is carrying themselves. If a male-to-female person is walking down the street, I doubt they stand out. I don't think they could even be pointed to as 'obvious male' by most people.
I also don't see how mental makeup enters the picture. In some ways, the discussion is like asking why does a person in shorts and T-shirt stand out from a group of 50 people who are all wearing suit and ties. Not a perfect analogy, but trying to make the point that wearing suit and tie doesn't equate to 'inherently better, mentally.'
I don't think cross dressers are (for sure) inherently awkward, but are akin to whatever it is people are compelled to do on Halloween night, i.e. put on a costume that isn't something they are naturally used to. Like a person wearing a cop's uniform (for Halloween) is likely to stand out from other police officers. Nothing to do with their mental makeup (in terms of possible illnesses), but more like mentally, they aren't carrying themselves in way we've become accustomed to. Some cross dressers will fare better than others in how they carry themselves.
Personally, I very much wish the attitude of "it's inherently wrong to cross dress" was done away with, but until that day, it does come across as awkward in some cases. To me, a prime example is male with a beard that is cross dressing, and is attempting to walk in high heels as if that should be no different than walking in tennis shoes.
I don't see how that makes sense. Everything that is awkward could be framed as "it's not, get over yourself."
The cases where it stands out is because of how that person is carrying themselves. If a male-to-female person is walking down the street, I doubt they stand out. I don't think they could even be pointed to as 'obvious male' by most people.
I also don't see how mental makeup enters the picture. In some ways, the discussion is like asking why does a person in shorts and T-shirt stand out from a group of 50 people who are all wearing suit and ties. Not a perfect analogy, but trying to make the point that wearing suit and tie doesn't equate to 'inherently better, mentally.'
I don't think cross dressers are (for sure) inherently awkward, but are akin to whatever it is people are compelled to do on Halloween night, i.e. put on a costume that isn't something they are naturally used to. Like a person wearing a cop's uniform (for Halloween) is likely to stand out from other police officers. Nothing to do with their mental makeup (in terms of possible illnesses), but more like mentally, they aren't carrying themselves in way we've become accustomed to. Some cross dressers will fare better than others in how they carry themselves.
Personally, I very much wish the attitude of "it's inherently wrong to cross dress" was done away with, but until that day, it does come across as awkward in some cases. To me, a prime example is male with a beard that is cross dressing, and is attempting to walk in high heels as if that should be no different than walking in tennis shoes.
vaguelyhumanoid
Active Member
Can we seriously not? If someone talked about how people with physical diseases or disabilities are repulsive, it would come across as extremely douchey. Saying the same thing about mental illness is no different. If anything, it's worse, considering how often mentally ill people are homeless, incarcerated or violently attacked. This attitude is not only obnoxious, it's discriminatory.