Cross or Upright Stake

[YoursTrue]

Nope,

Yup more subterfuge on your part.

more projection. The Gospels are all anonymous and were written by non-eyewitnesses over a generation and usually two generations after the crucifixion of Jesus. A lot of myth can enter into stories in that period of time. There is no good reason to trust the Gospels when it comes to details of any sort.

Here is your problem, crucifixion was the ultimate punishment. One does not use the ultimate punishment for minor crimes such as thievery.

You can't stick to one subject because once you get caught you then project to something else. Greek for thief can mean more than shoplifting. So get it straight. You'll look better then. Don't forget, have a good one.

 

[YoursTrue]

How was that projection? What I said about the Gospels is accurate. But then you do not appear to have ever have studied the Bible.

No what you said is not accurate. Maybe you forget.

 

[cataway]

The idea of crucifixion was a long slow death. The cross bad may have enabled the victim to hold himself up better than if his hands were tied above his head. The cross member is known to have existed. In fact when people were force to bear their cross that would have almost certainly have been the cross member. Not the entire cross. The upright part of the cross had to be firmly in the ground and if one digs a hole and puts an upright in it they are usually a bit wobbly unless one takes quite some time tamping soil down around it. It makes more sense to have permanent uprights and then the temporary crossbar added at the time of execution.

i see you still trying to find a way for the arms to be stretched L&R out parallel with the ground . yes a person could live for a few days . no water ,depending on the time of year ,hypothermia. but that's not what happen .
death comes from stress imposed on the body from being hung by the hands up over their head. medical science does proves this to be true. a person dies in hours when hung up that way.
the one hung up ends up gasping to breathe , to get a breath of air, they would push themselves up on the nails in their feet just to get some air . to keep that from happening the legs would be broken. with so much more stress being added they then suffocate .

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yup more subterfuge on your part.

You can't stick to one subject because once you get caught you then project to something else. Greek for thief can mean more than shoplifting. So get it straight. You'll look better then. Don't forget, have a good one.

Please. Try again. If all that you have are false claims about others how will we ever get anywhere?

 

[Subduction Zone]

No what you said is not accurate. Maybe you forget.

No, what I said was very accurate. You are forgetting about the other errors in the Gospels.

 

[Subduction Zone]

i see you still trying to find a way for the arms to be stretched L&R out parallel with the ground . yes a person could live for a few days . no water ,depending on the time of year ,hypothermia. but that's not what happen .
death comes from stress imposed on the body from being hung by the hands up over their head. medical science does proves this to be true. a person dies in hours when hung up that way.
the one hung up ends up gasping to breathe , to get a breath of air, they would push themselves up on the nails in their feet just to get some air . to keep that from happening the legs would be broken. with so much more stress being added they then suffocate .

And the shape of the cross comes from historical sources that observed crucifixions. The early crucifixions may have been on an upright stake, but the claim that Jesus carried his "cross" supports the idea that he carried the crosspiece. You should try to build a fence some day. It can be very educational

 

[YoursTrue]

No, what I said was very accurate. You are forgetting about the other errors in the Gospels.

That's not true. What you said about the idea of being executed for thievery is inaccurate because the use of the Greek language in reference to Roman law has different aspects, but unfortunately you are, as usual, sadly unwilling to admit your error. And that's sad to me because it shows that you are self-aggrandizing to the point that you cannot and will not admit what's right, even subjectively on a scholarly basis.
You present more reason for me to stay off juries. I am sure yo're not the only one that goes along with preformed and prejudiced notions. So thanks for augmenting that.
Yes, you did rightly bring out that common thievery without violence was not a capital crime, and as I did research into the words the Greeks used, that is correct, but words can have shades of discernment. Therefore, as Greek scholars explain, thievery along with violence and possibly bandits with weapons was a capital crime in the Roman government, subjecting the criminals to the death penalty. And then you want to shift the focus again instead of admitting what is true. And then perhaps moving on. What is of interest to me particularly in reference to human nature is that one thief condemned by the state was recognizing the truth about Jesus while the other did not. So have a good evening.

 

[cataway]

And the shape of the cross comes from historical sources that observed crucifixions. The early crucifixions may have been on an upright stake, but the claim that Jesus carried his "cross" supports the idea that he carried the crosspiece. You should try to build a fence some day. It can be very educational

I built pole barns, I know all about poles. how to stand them and how to remove them, (because dodo does happen) .
yes I have set fence post . cut the trees down peeled the bark off. its nothing new to me. please go back to #313 and reread it

 

[cataway]

Subduction Zone I will not tell you no one never died on a cross.yes it happen to a number of people but not to Jesus . the thought that Jesus died on a cross was a church thing, likely from 200 years after Jesus was long gone. where they assumed that's the way it was done all because they may of seen people hung on a cross .

 

[Subduction Zone]

That's not true. What you said about the idea of being executed for thievery is inaccurate because the use of the Greek language in reference to Roman law has different aspects, but unfortunately you are, as usual, sadly unwilling to admit your error. And that's sad to me because it shows that you are self-aggrandizing to the point that you cannot and will not admit what's right, even subjectively on a scholarly basis.
You present more reason for me to stay off juries. I am sure yo're not the only one that goes along with preformed and prejudiced notions. So thanks for augmenting that.
Yes, you did rightly bring out that common thievery without violence was not a capital crime, and as I did research into the words the Greeks used, that is correct, but words can have shades of discernment. Therefore, as Greek scholars explain, thievery along with violence and possibly bandits with weapons was a capital crime in the Roman government, subjecting the criminals to the death penalty. And then you want to shift the focus again instead of admitting what is true. And then perhaps moving on. What is of interest to me particularly in reference to human nature is that one thief condemned by the state was recognizing the truth about Jesus while the other did not. So have a good evening.

You were not paying attention again.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Subduction Zone I will not tell you no one never died on a cross.yes it happen to a number of people but not to Jesus . the thought that Jesus died on a cross was a church thing, likely from 200 years after Jesus was long gone. where they assumed that's the way it was done all because they may of seen people hung on a cross .

We can be very sure that Jesus died on the cross. The few exceptions are noted and understood and that did not happen to Jesus in any account. Sadly you will not even read up on crucifixion. Part of the punishment was that the body was left up. It was a warning to others. And Rome did not care about the religious sensibilities of the countries that they ruled over. That is why it was no problem getting the bodies down. It was no problem because they didn't do it. In the very few exceptions supporters of the person or persons being crucified managed to get the decision changed while the person was still alive. That didn't happen in his account.

 

[YoursTrue]

And the shape of the cross comes from historical sources that observed crucifixions. The early crucifixions may have been on an upright stake, but the claim that Jesus carried his "cross" supports the idea that he carried the crosspiece. You should try to build a fence some day. It can be very educational

You were not paying attention again.

Yes I was. The fact is that the Greek word sometimes translated as thief has the possibility of connoting more than simple theft such as shoplifting. It was not for simple theft that a thief was put to death by the Romans. The word itself is indigenous to the Greek and Roman understanding.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yes I was. The fact is that the Greek word sometimes translated as thief has the possibility of connoting more than simple theft such as shoplifting. It was not for simple theft that a thief was put to death by the Romans. The word itself is indigenous to the Greek and Roman understanding.

To use one of your favorite terms, that is pure conjecture on your part. An escaped slave that stole could and would be crucified. Heck an innocent slave would be crucified if a fellow slave killed their master. Slaves were not seen as people. Fear was a tool used to keep them in place. Entire households of slaves were crucified at times when one of them murdered their master. If the thieves were also escaped slaves crucifixion would be their end. It would not be the end of a free Judean. So to amend my earlier claim crucifixion was used as a punishment for those opposing Rome and for slaves that broke various laws. Either murdering their master or escaping and then breaking laws.

 

[cataway]

We can be very sure that Jesus died on the cross. The few exceptions are noted and understood and that did not happen to Jesus in any account. Sadly you will not even read up on crucifixion. Part of the punishment was that the body was left up. It was a warning to others. And Rome did not care about the religious sensibilities of the countries that they ruled over. That is why it was no problem getting the bodies down. It was no problem because they didn't do it. In the very few exceptions supporters of the person or persons being crucified managed to get the decision changed while the person was still alive. That didn't happen in his account.

Luke 23:52 &53 This man went in before Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. 53  And he took it down and wrapped it up in fine linen, and he laid it in a tomb carved in the rock, where no man had yet lain.
Matthew 27:58-60
58  This man approached Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus.x Then Pilate commanded that it be given to him. 59  Joseph took the body, wrapped it up in clean, fine linen, 60  and laid it in his new tomb, which he had quarried in the rock. And after rolling a big stone to the entrance of the tomb, he left.
Mark 15:43
there came Joseph of Ar·i·ma·theʹa, a reputable member of the Council, who also himself was waiting for the Kingdom of God. He took courage and went in before Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus.o 44  But Pilate wondered whether he could already be dead, and summoning the army officer, he asked him whether Jesus had already died. 45  So after making certain from the army officer, he granted the body to Joseph.
John 19:31
Since it was the day of Preparation, so that the bodies would not remain on the torture stakes on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath day was a great one), the Jews asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken away. 32  So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first man and those of the other man who was on a stake alongside him. 33  But on coming to Jesus, they saw that he was already dead, so they did not break his legs.
John 19:38
Now after these things, Joseph of Ar·i·ma·theʹa, who was a disciple of Jesus but a secret one because of his fear of the Jews, asked Pilate if he could take away the body of Jesus, and Pilate gave him permission. So he came and took the body away.

could you please read the book

 

[Subduction Zone]

Luke 23:52 &53 This man went in before Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. 53  And he took it down and wrapped it up in fine linen, and he laid it in a tomb carved in the rock, where no man had yet lain.
Matthew 27:58-60
58  This man approached Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus.x Then Pilate commanded that it be given to him. 59  Joseph took the body, wrapped it up in clean, fine linen, 60  and laid it in his new tomb, which he had quarried in the rock. And after rolling a big stone to the entrance of the tomb, he left.
Mark 15:43
there came Joseph of Ar·i·ma·theʹa, a reputable member of the Council, who also himself was waiting for the Kingdom of God. He took courage and went in before Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus.o 44  But Pilate wondered whether he could already be dead, and summoning the army officer, he asked him whether Jesus had already died. 45  So after making certain from the army officer, he granted the body to Joseph.
John 19:31
Since it was the day of Preparation, so that the bodies would not remain on the torture stakes on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath day was a great one), the Jews asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken away. 32  So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first man and those of the other man who was on a stake alongside him. 33  But on coming to Jesus, they saw that he was already dead, so they did not break his legs.
John 19:38
Now after these things, Joseph of Ar·i·ma·theʹa, who was a disciple of Jesus but a secret one because of his fear of the Jews, asked Pilate if he could take away the body of Jesus, and Pilate gave him permission. So he came and took the body away.

could you please read the book

There is no record of that sort of exception. The only case known of someone that was crucified and whose body was recovered still had a part of the cross attached to it via a spike through its heel that still had a chunk of wood attached. That body was likely taken down after most of it had rotted away.

You still have not given any rational reason for your stance. The idea of a cross beam would have enable to victim to stay alive longer. The main purpose of crucifixion was not just to execute a person, but to execute them in the most painful way possible.

 

[cataway]

There is no record of that sort of exception. The only case known of someone that was crucified and whose body was recovered still had a part of the cross attached to it via a spike through its heel that still had a chunk of wood attached. That body was likely taken down after most of it had rotted away.

You still have not given any rational reason for your stance. The idea of a cross beam would have enable to victim to stay alive longer. The main purpose of crucifixion was not just to execute a person, but to execute them in the most painful way possible.

John 19:31
Since it was the day of Preparation, so that the bodies would not remain on the torture stakes on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath day was a great one), the Jews asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken away. 32  So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first man and those of the other man who was on a stake alongside him. 33  But on coming to Jesus, they saw that he was already dead, so they did not break his legs.

 

[Subduction Zone]

John 19:31
Since it was the day of Preparation, so that the bodies would not remain on the torture stakes on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath day was a great one), the Jews asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken away. 32  So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first man and those of the other man who was on a stake alongside him. 33  But on coming to Jesus, they saw that he was already dead, so they did not break his legs.

Why trust the Bible? Do you trust the Gospels when Luke has Jesus born in 6 CE and Matthew has him born in 4 BCE or even earlier? When it comes to the crucifixion do you believe John or the other three at which time of day that it occurred or even as to what day it occurred? That story goes against Roman custom. Bodies were not taken down. Here is what an actual scholar of the time says:

And where is your link? Bogus translations of the Bible do not help you if you cannot link them.

 

[YoursTrue]

To use one of your favorite terms, that is pure conjecture on your part. An escaped slave that stole could and would be crucified. Heck an innocent slave would be crucified if a fellow slave killed their master. Slaves were not seen as people. Fear was a tool used to keep them in place. Entire households of slaves were crucified at times when one of them murdered their master. If the thieves were also escaped slaves crucifixion would be their end. It would not be the end of a free Judean. So to amend my earlier claim crucifixion was used as a punishment for those opposing Rome and for slaves that broke various laws. Either murdering their master or escaping and then breaking laws.

You need to look up the commentaries about the Greek terms and what the Romans thought. Yes, the Romans did not execute mere thieves like a shoplifter. But they did execute those who were like bandits and committed violent acts along with the thievery. Yes, punishment was used against those opposing Rome. But -- it was also used in the sense of robbers using violence.

 

[Kathryn]

What does it matter?

 

[cataway]

Why trust the Bible? Do you trust the Gospels when Luke has Jesus born in 6 CE and Matthew has him born in 4 BCE or even earlier? When it comes to the crucifixion do you believe John or the other three at which time of day that it occurred or even as to what day it occurred? That story goes against Roman custom. Bodies were not taken down. Here is what an actual scholar of the time says:

And where is your link? Bogus translations of the Bible do not help you if you cannot link them.

did you not read Luke 23:52 & 53 This man went in before Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. 53  And he took it down and wrapped it up in fine linen, and he laid it in a tomb carved in the rock, where no man had yet lain.