crucifiction

[yirme]

i am wondering if anyone else reads the crucifiction story as one inversigating a crime, or a murder. collecting the data and then determining what actually happened.

we have:
-jesus consumes some sort of bitter herbal concoction in a vinegar/alcohol base, after 'calling for elijah', before losing consciousness (certain herbs can be poisonous and could make one lose consciousness, and alcohol is used sometimes with herbs to increase the effectiveness and make them hit the bloodstream faster - jesus would have been familiar with these things since he was a great healer),Mar 15:36 Mat 27:48 Jhn 19:29
-pilate, who had seen many crucified, marvelled at how fast jesus supposedly died (when they went to ask for jesus's body)Mar 15:44
-when jesus was stabbed with the spearhead, blood poured forth (blood does not pour forth from a corpse, blood pours forth when the heart is still beating to push the blood, it might trickle from a corpse),Jhn 19:34
-nicodemus brings 100 pounds of healing herbs/aloes to put on the body (which is very inconsistent with jewish burial rituals and would be a complete waste to put on a corpse), Jhn 19:39
-jesus is wrapped in linen strips after being covered in the 100 pounds of healing herbs(just as one would wrap a wound, not a corpse - even in modern times),Jhn 19:40
-he is supposedly not buried properly because of the sabbath (the sabbath, which began at sundown on friday, ends at sundown on saturday, so if this was the real reason, they would have logically went back to give him a proper burial at that time instead of only sending a couple/few people sunday morning), Luk 23:56
-the body is placed in a "tomb" where no dead human has been rather than placing him in a family tomb with other corpses, Luk 23:53
-mary (not just mary, but the others vary depending on the gospel account being read) brings sweet spices/perfume to put on jesus's day and a half old supposedly dead corpse,Mar 16:1
-the quran tells us that jesus did not die on the cross (this one is of course not in the gospels, it is in the quran) 4:157 - "they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them" (crucify has the implication of death on the cross, if he did not die, then he was not officially crucified- merriam webster defines crucify as: to put to death by nailing or binding the wrists or hands and feet to a cross).

there are probably more also...
is there a way to reconcile these inconsistencies in the crucifiction story with logic, as one investigating to find truth might do?

peace

 

[Popeyesays]

The Qur'an discusses it in other v erses as well. The description varies there too.

004.157
YUSUFALI: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
PICKTHAL: And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.
SHAKIR: And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.
004.158
YUSUFALI: Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
PICKTHAL: But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise.
SHAKIR: Nay! Allah took him up to Himself; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.
004.159
YUSUFALI: And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;-
PICKTHAL: There is not one of the People of the Scripture but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them -
SHAKIR: And there is not one of the followers of the Book but most certainly believes in this before his death, and on the day of resurrection he (Isa) shall be a witness against them.

-----------------------------
003.055
YUSUFALI: Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.
PICKTHAL: (And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing thee of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then unto Me ye will (all) return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein ye used to differ.
SHAKIR: And when Allah said: O Isa, I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

019.030
YUSUFALI: He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;
PICKTHAL: He spake: Lo! I am the slave of Allah. He hath given me the Scripture and hath appointed me a Prophet,
SHAKIR: He said: Surely I am a servant of Allah; He has given me the Book and made me a prophet;
019.031
YUSUFALI: "And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live;
PICKTHAL: And hath made me blessed wheresoever I may be, and hath enjoined upon me prayer and almsgiving so long as I remain alive,
SHAKIR: And He has made me blessed wherever I may be, and He has enjoined on me prayer and poor-rate so long as I live;
019.032
YUSUFALI: "(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable;
PICKTHAL: And (hath made me) dutiful toward her who bore me, and hath not made me arrogant, unblest.
SHAKIR: And dutiful to my mother, and He has not made me insolent, unblessed;
019.033
YUSUFALI: "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!
PICKTHAL: Peace on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive!
SHAKIR: And peace on me on the day I was born, and on the day I die, and on the day I am raised to life.
-----------------------------------------------

Jesus hung on the cross and God raised up His spirit to Himself. Thios was an act of mercy to His chosen Prophet.

Regards,
Scott

 

[arthra]

Yirme wrote:

-the quran tells us that jesus did not die on the cross (this one is of course not in the gospels, it is in the quran) 4:157 - "they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them" (crucify has the implication of death on the cross, if he did not die, then he was not officially crucified- merriam webster defines crucify as: to put to death by nailing or binding the wrists or hands and feet to a cross).

My comment:

Abdul-Baha explained some years ago that what the text of Qur'an means is that the Spirit of Christ could not be crucified so when it says "They crucified Him not" it is referring to His Spirit. Those who crucified Him could only see His body physically humiliated on the cross and tried to convincve themselves it was over but it wasn't over...

Elsewhere the Qur'an explains that martyrs should not be seen as being dead..

"And think not of those who have been killed in the cause of Alllah as dead. Nay they are alive, enjoying the company of their Lord.."

Al-i-Imran 3:169

From my study I believe that the Lord Jesus was truly a martyr for the Cause of Allah.. He gave His life. There may not be as much difference between the Qur'anic account and the Gospel version as some have been led to believe...

- Art

 

[yirme]

There may not be as much difference between the Qur'anic account and the Gospel version as some have been led to believe...

indeed

 

[Charity]

Why should we believe the Qur'an is any more credible than the bible?

I can say my house is bigger than your house, have you seen it ? No
You say your house is bigger have I seen it ? No
So if we neither one produce evidence, it's a no win situation...

But my house is bigger and it is so much more beautiful. if you see it and then you might say, well when I look at her house, I don't draw the same conclusion. We're still going to disagree, because we see things differently. We perceive things differently. Our interpretation of the scriptures are different....

Using a woman's logic, I am right WOMEN RULE, see what confusion we get by you guys trying to run everything..........Always gotta be in charge Jeeeez

Come on guys, I'm only joking :woohoo::biglaugh:

 

[yirme]

Why should we believe the Qur'an is any more credible than the bible?

peace,
the issue here is not whether the bible or quran is more credible. the question posed is concerning the logic inconsistencies in the gospel crucifiction narratives which are completely ignored by modern christianity. the quran simply adds more substance to these inconsistencies.
i am guessing your house would be perceived by most as larger and more beautiful than mine, in a material sense. mine is small and plain, but it covers me when i rest and protects me when i pray, and the garden feeds me with its ripened ovaries and roots.

wa salaam

 

[Heneni]

Ok so lets start with the blood rushing out.

Since Jesus was hanging on a cross, the blood would not trickle out, since gravity pulls it to the ground, and accelerates at 9.8 ms-2. So it could have been rushing. It could not have been thick blood as that of a corpse since he was not dead all that long. Blood trickles when the wound is small, or when the body is lying on the ground, and then it also depends on the size of the wound. Have you seen animals bleed after they have been killed for human consumptions, it doesnt trickle out, and they are hung up to help the blood flow out quicker.

The drinking of vinegar thing...some versions say he did not drink it. But Ok, lets say he did drink it.
Are you aware of vinegars properties to preserve? If Jesus drank it, it would have helped preserve his body. Since He was going to rise in the same body again.

The reason why the general rituals were not followed, was because the body was going to be ressurected again, and so in faith, they did not do to the body what they would otherwise have done if they thought it was never going to rise again.

Do you know that the bodies kidneys work for up to two hours after death?

Love
heneni

 

[Yoda]

Are you aware of vinegars properties to preserve? If Jesus drank it, it would have helped preserve his body

There is no way he could have consumed enough vinegar to even have preserved his body for any length of time....The Ancient Egyptians used Natron from the Nile River to preserve their dead and it took 73 days of the body being buried in the stuff to even work.

 

[Popeyesays]

Bleeding from a sucking chest wound is definitely different than bleeding from a gut wound, or a vein, or an artery. Each kind of wound bleeds differently.
A lung penetrating wound bleeds frothily and ebbs and flow with the breath. It is mixed with a higher proportion of other fluids because of the nature of oxygenation occuring in the lungs.
"
8-2. IDENTIFY SIGNS AND SYMPTOMS OF AN OPEN CHEST WOUND
An open chest wound can be caused by the chest wall being penetrated by a bullet, knife blade, shrapnel, or other object. If you are not sure if a chest wound has penetrated the chest wall completely, treat the wound as though it were an open chest wound. Some of the signs and symptoms of an open chest wound are given below.
Sucking sound coming from chest wound. (When a casualty with an open chest wound breathes, air goes in and out of the wound. This air sometimes causes a "sucking" sound. Because of this distinct sound, an open chest wound is often called a "sucking chest wound.")
Frothy blood. (The air going in and out of an open chest wound causes bubbles in the blood coming from the wound.)
Pain in the shoulder or chest area which increases with breathing.
Shortness of breath or other difficulty in breathing.
Chest not rising normally when the casualty inhales.
Blood coughed up.
Bluish tint to lips, inside of mouth, fingertips, or nailbeds. (The color change is caused by the decreased amount of oxygen in the blood.)
Rapid and weak heartbeat."
LESSON 8 PERFORM FIRST AID FOR AN OPEN CHEST WOUND

Regards,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

There is no way he could have consumed enough vinegar to even have preserved his body for any length of time....The Ancient Egyptians used Natron from the Nile River to preserve their dead and it took 73 days of the body being buried in the stuff to even work.

It was ther pratice in the 19th century to preserve corpses for transportation by putting them in a large cask and filling it with brandy or vinegar. That was how Nelson's body was preserved for ceremonial burial after the Battle of Trafalgar in 1805.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Heneni]

hello

Jesus consumed the vinegar and then died. The vinegar would have been in his bloodstream and have worked its way through the organs before he died. It is what happens to the internal organs that result in the decay of the outer organ, the skin.

Love
Heneni

 

[Popeyesays]

People consume vinegar sometimes on a daily basis. A vinegar drink is traditional in Persia for instance. I have had it myself, I won't repeat the experience becauswe I found it vile.
Now the people who do drink it for pleasure do not have their internal organs pickled. Drinking vinegar causes the vinegar to enter the stomach and the intestines where it is broken down into its organic constituents and is in fact no longer vinegar at all.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Yoda]

hello

Jesus consumed the vinegar and then died. The vinegar would have been in his bloodstream and have worked its way through the organs before he died. It is what happens to the internal organs that result in the decay of the outer organ, the skin.

Love
Heneni

I guess he was pickled before he died then....hehehehehehe

 

[Heneni]

Yes but if you drink it and the body stops working then the internal organs do get pickled.

 

[Heneni]

What makes some corpses decay faster than others? It is the rate at which the internal organs start to break down. Vinegar is a preservative, it therefore would have prolonged the decaying process.

 

[yirme]

The reason why the general rituals were not followed, was because the body was going to be ressurected again, and so in faith, they did not do to the body what they would otherwise have done if they thought it was never going to rise again.

they were clearly not expecting a resurrection.
the disciples, all throughout the gospels, are known for their weak faith. doubting things and not understanding what jesus teaches them, not even being able to stay awake with jesus as he prayed in the garden.
we are also told that mary, mary, and salome trembled and were amazed at jesus not being at the tomb. if they had enough faith to reject the burial rituals for a martyr, surely they would not have been amazed if jesus was resurrected, it would have been exactly what they were expecting. it would be logical however that they trembled and were amazed if he was able to leave on his own power after a day and a half after the physical punishment he endured. when someone goes through that, life/death could go either way.

peace

 

[yirme]

What makes some corpses decay faster than others? It is the rate at which the internal organs start to break down. Vinegar is a preservative, it therefore would have prolonged the decaying process.

so you believe that the sponge that was held up to jesus contained enough vinegar to preserve him?

 

[Heneni]

Also does vinegar not change into alchohol when digested by the stomach? Alchohol is also a preservative.

People with lots of alcohol in their system take longer to decay than other too.

 

[Heneni]

LOL...lets not say Jesus was drunk when he died OK!

 

[yirme]

People consume vinegar sometimes on a daily basis. A vinegar drink is traditional in Persia for instance. I have had it myself, I won't repeat the experience becauswe I found it vile.
Now the people who do drink it for pleasure do not have their internal organs pickled. Drinking vinegar causes the vinegar to enter the stomach and the intestines where it is broken down into its organic constituents and is in fact no longer vinegar at all.

Regards,
Scott

i knew a guy that drank a little each morning and he said it completely removed his arthritis.