Cult Test

[savagewind]

You might consider doing that...... just wandering into all sorts of Christian services, regardless....... there are hundreds and hundreds of differing churches.... and just taking part with the congregation. It can do no harm to a Christian (you can go anywhere), and who knows...... you might bump into a similar heart and soul.

But you said "any church". I assumed your question was about all religions. I have been to two Christian church services. One had a video above the stage of a black angel. It sure looked like what I imagine Satan looking like. I did not ask. I did not tell. Mums the word. I am not able to go to that church again as it is a thousand miles away.

I went to a local church. There happened to be a visitor who was sharing news of China. I am a woman. I asked leading questions which resonated with duobt (about what they teach). I was not invited back.

You have not been following my posts. I believe The Bibles are wrong and are misleading Christians believers. The original "all scripture" has been twisted. Nobody cares so why should I care to build those false Bible believers up in their error? It would be wrong imo.

Question: Does it matter if a group of folks is a cult? Are all cults bad?

What religion does is settle for truth to believe in. Abraham taught not to settle. I am not settling.

 

[Quintessence]

Question: Does it matter if a group of folks is a cult? Are all cults bad?

I'm not going to pretend that I've followed this entire thread, but I personally will not use the word "cult" to describe anything other than a specific type of social organization that is highly manipulative - in a harmful fashion - of its membership. In this way, diagnosing a cult is similar to diagnosing mental illnesses. People can very easily exhibit some of the characteristics of mental illness without it being diagnosable as a full-on neuroticism or psychoses. It has to actually interfere with their life (or those of others) in a harmful fashion. The vast majority of human groups simply do not meet that criteria, just like the vast majority of personality quirks people have are not neuroticisms or psychoses.

So yes, by most standards, that would mean all cults are bad and, if you care about your fellow human beings, it also matters in that you have an ethical obligation to help your fellows out of bad situations. Just like most of us would say mental illnesses are bad and you should get help.

 

[oldbadger]

I know that you can be upset about the JWs, sometimes. A JW evangelical couple have been visiting me for two decades now. Sometimes they must 'give up' over me and take a break from visiting..... other times the visit and sit and chat for a long time. They like my wife's coffee, and they know that they can park on our drive whenever.

I could never join the JWs for different reasons. ...
1. I can't accept how a JW world would work.
2. I love them too much to ever lose their calls.

If I had ever joined, and then left, I would have lost them for ever.

 

[oldbadger]

I'm not going to pretend that I've followed this entire thread, but I personally will not use the word "cult" to describe anything other than a specific type of social organization that is highly manipulative - in a harmful fashion - of its membership. In this way, diagnosing a cult is similar to diagnosing mental illnesses. People can very easily exhibit some of the characteristics of mental illness without it being diagnosable as a full-on neuroticism or psychoses. It has to actually interfere with their life (or those of others) in a harmful fashion. The vast majority of human groups simply do not meet that criteria, just like the vast majority of personality quirks people have are not neuroticisms or psychoses.

So yes, by most standards, that would mean all cults are bad and, if you care about your fellow human beings, it also matters in that you have an ethical obligation to help your fellows out of bad situations. Just like most of us would say mental illnesses are bad and you should get help.

Fair enough........ but, of course, many people seem to be including less harmful groups in the category of 'cult'. But........ yes...... you make good sense. :yes:

 

[savagewind]

I'm not going to pretend that I've followed this entire thread, but I personally will not use the word "cult" to describe anything other than a specific type of social organization that is highly manipulative - in a harmful fashion - of its membership. In this way, diagnosing a cult is similar to diagnosing mental illnesses. People can very easily exhibit some of the characteristics of mental illness without it being diagnosable as a full-on neuroticism or psychoses. It has to actually interfere with their life (or those of others) in a harmful fashion. The vast majority of human groups simply do not meet that criteria, just like the vast majority of personality quirks people have are not neuroticisms or psychoses.

So yes, by most standards, that would mean all cults are bad and, if you care about your fellow human beings, it also matters in that you have an ethical obligation to help your fellows out of bad situations. Just like most of us would say mental illnesses are bad and you should get help.

Thank you. It is an excellent analogy. Thanks also for acknowledging that to bring it to light might be for helping not trolling.

Many Jehovah's Witnesses live a healthy religious life. I am not one who was able to do that and since I left I have discovered many more people who were hurt badly by their membership with them.

To be asked to dedicate what amounts to one's soul to an organization without telling all the facts is wrong. It just is.

 

[oldbadger]

But you said "any church". I assumed your question was about all religions. I have been to two Christian church services. One had a video above the stage of a black angel. It sure looked like what I imagine Satan looking like. I did not ask. I did not tell. Mums the word. I am not able to go to that church again as it is a thousand miles away.

Hang on! Just a sec..... What's wrong with a black angel? I would be pleased to receive any angel into our home, not just because beggars can't be choosers, but because I wouldn't judge on an angel's colour.

I went to a local church. There happened to be a visitor who was sharing news of China. I am a woman. I asked leading questions which resonated with duobt (about what they teach). I was not invited back.

Well that was naughty of you. You caused a group to shut a door.... you should not have been contentious at that meeting. Blimey, I was thinking of you going into any church..... if you walked into our local Spiritualist Church you might go bonkers at what they do...... honest. But this is about love, not confict. ??:yes:

You have not been following my posts.

Well..... no.... not all. I'm very busy having rows with pseudo intellectuals on Historic Jesus threads. (You're allowed to be contentious on HJ threads).

I believe The Bibles are wrong and are misleading Christians believers. The original "all scripture" has been twisted.

Yes. :yes:

Nobody cares so why should I care to build those false Bible believers up in their error? It would be wrong imo.

This is about love....... not fighting for souls. You don't have to egg them on, just listen and wonder, and love. You don't go bonkers when kiddies tell you silly things.... we are only kids ast any age!

What religion does is settle for truth to believe in. Abraham taught not to settle. I am not settling.

OK, but being grumpy can't help people who are in some 'blind belief'.
(Yeshua was allowed to be impatient, irritable, angry, even. He had a lot to do, and was very fed up with the wicked priesthood etc):yes:

 

[Quintessence]

Fair enough........ but, of course, many people seem to be including less harmful groups in the category of 'cult'. But........ yes...... you make good sense. :yes:

I've noticed that common parlance is much more lax with the usage of the word "cult" than I am. In the context of a conversation like this, I default to a much more technical/academic definition of the term because I feel that is most appropriate for the topic of discussion. I do the same thing when the topic of evolution comes up, because "evolution" in science means something very specific compared to the more generalized definitions of common parlance.

Thank you. It is an excellent analogy. Thanks also for acknowledging that to bring it to light might be for helping not trolling.

If you're using a more technical/academic definition of cults - which the examples you posted earlier in the thread are - then yeah, the point of it is to identify harmful groups so you can help people. Recovering from being in a real cult is difficult. Blast, it can be difficult for people in cults to recognize their lives are being usurped by the group leader's agendas to begin with... meaning getting out and getting treatment in of itself is quite the task.

Harmful cults are an issue I'm aware of because it is sometimes an issue in the Neopagan community. I can't say I've personally heard of things like this really happening, but there are always stories circulating around of "Wiccan" high priests requiring sexual favors from young girls to be "initiated into the mysteries." These sorts of things are dangerous and our communities need to be alert for them. One of our elders, the late Isaac Bonewitz, developed this Cult Danger Evaluation Frame for our community. It's similar to the lists you posted up earlier, but I thought I'd share anyway.

 

[savagewind]

Hang on! Just a sec..... What's wrong with a black angel? I would be pleased to receive any angel into our home, not just because beggars can't be choosers, but because I wouldn't judge on an angel's colour.

LOL I am feeling a little rolly poly. Not black as in African American. Black like in the color black. DARK. Not dark skinned. It was a silhouette of darkness with black wings.

 

[savagewind]

Well..... no.... not all. I'm very busy having rows with pseudo intellectuals on Historic Jesus threads. (You're allowed to be contentious on HJ threads).

It's OK. I forgive you.

 

[savagewind]

Well that was naughty of you. You caused a group to shut a door.... you should not have been contentious at that meeting. Blimey, I was thinking of you going into any church..... if you walked into our local Spiritualist Church you might go bonkers at what they do...... honest. But this is about love, not confict. ??

Error misleads. If error is not corrected, to be led by the spirit of truth becomes impossible.

Proverbs 1:20-23 Out in the open wisdom calls aloud, she raises her voice in the public square; on top of the wall she cries out, at the city gate she makes her speech: How long will you who are simple love your simple ways? How long will mockers delight in mockery and fools hate knowledge? Repent at my rebuke! Then I will pour out my thoughts to you, I will make known to you my teachings.

One true thing I learned at the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses is truth cannot contradict truth. But they went ahead and made up their own truth. It is what religion does. And cultish religions teach go ahead and LEAN on it. Lean on what we made up for you to believe. If you lean on or settle for something that is not true what will you do? You will be unable to know what IS true when it comes. How is that not true?

 

[savagewind]

The Asian visitor to the local church was praising the church's effort to get Bibles to China. I asked if the Chinese Bibles added the word "own" to Proverbs 1:23. He said they did. That was my only contention. I said Proverbs 1:23 says don't lean on understanding. It does not say do not lean on your own understanding. People are being taught to lean on the Church father's understanding. They are being taught doctrine to lean on but it is against the command at Proverbs 1:23. To lean on human understanding is like building your house on the sand. What happens to a house built on sand? Matthew 7:23 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Notice also how the watchtower doesn't baptise people in the name of the father and the son and the Holy Spirit like NT tells them to, they baptise them as apart of the org.

 

[savagewind]

Notice also how the watchtower doesn't baptise people in the name of the father and the son and the Holy Spirit like NT tells them to, they baptise them as apart of the org.

Yes. "in association with God's spirit directed organization".



The governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses teach the witnesses to lean on the governing body's undrstanding of scripture. Isn't that worse than leaning on one's own understanding, something the Bible warns us about?

Why do I think is it worse? If you have made it your decision to trust your own understanding, thus lean on it, you will have no one but yourself to blame if failure results. You might feel good that you had done the best you could under your own circumstances.

But if you lean on someone else's understanding, and you fail, who is to blame? You will have nothing left, not even your self worth, because you had given it to someone or something else. And you had let them dictate your circumstance.

Another definition of cult?

 

[savagewind]

A Bible believer's understanding of scripture will dictate the behavior of the believer. True or false?

 

[McBell]

A Bible believer's understanding of scripture will dictate the behavior of the believer. True or false?

True.
As you have thoroughly demonstrated in this thread.
What you have not demonstrated is that your personal opinions of what the Bible says is any thing other than different from what others believe the Bible says.

 

[savagewind]

True.
As you have thoroughly demonstrated in this thread.
What you have not demonstrated is that your personal opinions of what the Bible says is any thing other than different from what others believe the Bible says.

Do you mean anything?

 

[savagewind]

....Or any thing. Is there a difference? Will you please demonstrate the difference between my anything and your any thing?

 

[savagewind]

I do not think this thread is about examples of misleading scriptures. I am sure I have made plenty posts about those. Do you want an example? No?

 

[savagewind]

True.
As you have thoroughly demonstrated in this thread.
What you have not demonstrated is that your personal opinions of what the Bible says is any thing other than different from what others believe the Bible says.

I have said plenty in this thead. Mestemia, you have said a few words but have not really said anything. Would you like to say something? I won't report you and this isn't blue anyways.

 

[McBell]

Do you mean anything?

You have not shown any interpretation to be the "correct" interpretation.

Without a "correct" interpretation to base the JW interpretation to, you are doing absolutely nothing more than showing how your interpretation and the JW interpretation are different.