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Dairy Farm Abuse
- Thread starter Sententia
- Start date
xkatz
Well-Known Member
DavyCrocket2003,
If you want to consume less meat and help the Earth, I would highly recommend reducing or even stopping your consumption of beef. Beef is not very healthy and cattle destroy precious forests and they are even more of a threat than logging is to the environment.
If you want to consume less meat and help the Earth, I would highly recommend reducing or even stopping your consumption of beef. Beef is not very healthy and cattle destroy precious forests and they are even more of a threat than logging is to the environment.
Jollybear
Hey
As much as I hate how this guy is beating the cows, I can't stop eating meat. And i don't feel guilty for eating meat, because by me eating it, I am not advocating this man beating the cows. He is choosing to break the law when he does this.
Meat has COMPLETE protiens in it. meaning all the amino acids, while vegies and fruits and startches do not. Although there is a acception, soy beans have complete protien in it, all the amino acids like meat does. There could be more, but I am not aware of them.
Meat has COMPLETE protiens in it. meaning all the amino acids, while vegies and fruits and startches do not. Although there is a acception, soy beans have complete protien in it, all the amino acids like meat does. There could be more, but I am not aware of them.
methylatedghosts
Can't brain. Has dumb.
I should expect that things like in the first video would happen on only a small number of farms. Having lived and grown up on farms for most of my life, I've seen a fair number, and I've worked on many. None of the farms that I've seen treats cows like that. If a farmer wants to have a high production, and get more income, the cows will be treated well - the worse off the cows are, the worse off your paycheck is. Sad cows = less milk.
Some farmers may say that they need to take such measures to control the cows, but if you treat them right from the get go, they're pretty easy going animals. Sure they're infuriating at times, and can be mind-numbingly stupid, but it's better to spend 10mins convincing a cow to do what you want it to do, than it is to spend 5mins beating it to make it do so.
Some farmers may say that they need to take such measures to control the cows, but if you treat them right from the get go, they're pretty easy going animals. Sure they're infuriating at times, and can be mind-numbingly stupid, but it's better to spend 10mins convincing a cow to do what you want it to do, than it is to spend 5mins beating it to make it do so.
Just_me_Mike
Well-Known Member
I feel the same way about people who go to war, knowing innocent children die from their actions. They do this without blinking an eye as well.
.lava
Veteran Member
for one, don't mix meat with pastry. if you were going to eat fruits, don't eat many kinds together. you should eat salad. if you want to eat cheese, mix it with lots of raw greens. basically, try not to mix and have simple dishes. for example in Turkey people add onion and rice when they cook spinach. it is unhealthy. matter of fact it is best to eat spinach raw in your salad. even though you cook it, no need to mix it with rice and onion. i am sorry i can't say more. you can also check this out if you wish. i am not good at translation so you're welcomed to ask question if you had any
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/food-beverage-forum/64167-blood-type-food.html
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Cruelty is endemic in the meat industry. Workers must 'commoditize' their product if only as an ego-defense mechanism.
Even if livestock were brought up like your own children, they're still killed as soon as they reach marketable size or their milk production wanes. Quantity of life must figure into the moral equation as well as quantity.
Even if you disapprove of the treatment of animals, buying meat abets the system.
I'm not sure why you're bringing this up, jollybear. Protein's not a dietary issue. You'd practically have to live off jelly beans and coca cola to have a protein deficient diet or inadequate amino-acid balance.
Noaidi
slow walker
Seyorni
I agree. By eating meat, one is complicit in the system. Unless you can prove that your meat has not been the result of factory farming, then how do you know that your food has not undergone that cruelty?
It sickens me that people continue to eat meat because it "tastes nice". What do some organisms have to go through just so people can have a 'tasty meal' - that's the question people should ask themselves.
I agree. By eating meat, one is complicit in the system. Unless you can prove that your meat has not been the result of factory farming, then how do you know that your food has not undergone that cruelty?
It sickens me that people continue to eat meat because it "tastes nice". What do some organisms have to go through just so people can have a 'tasty meal' - that's the question people should ask themselves.
Jollybear
Hey
Seyorni
Well then there should be rules against how they treat them and those rules be enforced.
Seriously, can we help it if someone has FALSE motives that is egotistic motives?
Secondly they should have rules on how they are treated.
Yes, they are still killed, but I do not believe it’s wrong to kill the animal for food. It’s wrong for sport, for egotistic purposes and all that, but for food? No, I don’t believe it’s wrong to kill the animals for food. Although to be cruel, I don’t think is right.
By me disapproving of this guy’s actions I still do not feel that I am supporting his actions by eating meat. He has CHOSEN to break the law by doing what he did. His work does not support his actions, he is breaking the work rules by doing that. I support people having work, I don’t support them breaking the rules at work. I support eating meat; I don’t support people being cruel.
There is a big difference.
You can get all the amino acids if you eat a balance of different vegetables, yes. But you can get A LOT more protein in meat opposed to just vegetables. And there is a decrease in creatinine and some vitamins and minerals in not eating meat.
And for those wanting to build muscle mass, a vegetarian diet is a big no, no.
Well then there should be rules against how they treat them and those rules be enforced.
Seriously, can we help it if someone has FALSE motives that is egotistic motives?
Secondly they should have rules on how they are treated.
Yes, they are still killed, but I do not believe it’s wrong to kill the animal for food. It’s wrong for sport, for egotistic purposes and all that, but for food? No, I don’t believe it’s wrong to kill the animals for food. Although to be cruel, I don’t think is right.
By me disapproving of this guy’s actions I still do not feel that I am supporting his actions by eating meat. He has CHOSEN to break the law by doing what he did. His work does not support his actions, he is breaking the work rules by doing that. I support people having work, I don’t support them breaking the rules at work. I support eating meat; I don’t support people being cruel.
There is a big difference.
You can get all the amino acids if you eat a balance of different vegetables, yes. But you can get A LOT more protein in meat opposed to just vegetables. And there is a decrease in creatinine and some vitamins and minerals in not eating meat.
And for those wanting to build muscle mass, a vegetarian diet is a big no, no.
Noaidi
slow walker
A lot more protein by eating meat? Just adjust your vegetable consumption and you'll get sufficient amino acids. Most people eat too much protein, which is excreted from the body anyway.
And wanting to build muscle mass? Vegetarian diet being a big no-no? See above...
By "ego defense" I refer to the psychological compartmentalization that enables workers to do what they do without being psychically traumatized, not to any sort of egotism.
There are rules, but if you're aware they aren't being enforced and support the system anyway, you're still morally culpable.
Is it OK to kill people for food? If not, what qualities do humans have that proscribes your eating them, that animals do not?
I don't doubt these are your honest feeling on the issue, but I'd urge you to think (not feel) about it.
You don't want a lot of protein, Jollybear. Too much is not good and most Americans already ingest toxic amounts.
If you're actively building muscle mass or regenerating tissue after injury your body will utilise more protein, but not that much more -- catabolism can only work so fast. Most of the protein in a high protein bodybuilder's diet's simply broken down and wasted -- putting a considerable strain on the kidneys and decalcifying bones, by the way.
I know vegetarian body builders. They don't seem to have any problems (other than the wanting to be a body builder).
Jollybear
Hey
Seyorni
Explain more?
Right, they are not being enforced, I believe they should, thus I am not supporting his actions. You could say well by me still buying meat I am supporting his actions because it keeps him having a job. But then are we morally responsible for everyone else’s actions? Or are they responsible for their own actions? Just think if what your saying is true, then to be consistent every time I go to a store who has a lazy worker there and I buy something, lets say a grocery order, or if I am at a home improvement store, I buy a plant, then every time I go there, I am supporting laziness. You see, how far can you go with that?
I don’t believe in smoking, but if I have talked to people WHILE they were smoking at times, does that mean I am supporting smoking? No. I mean how far can you go with this?
I don’t believe in steeling, but I talked and had pleasant conversations with someone WHO DID STEEL, does that mean I support steeling? Just how far can you go with this?
You see, even if this cow beater lost his job, well he would just get a job somewhere else and manifest his INSECURITY and cowardness toward someone else in a different way, and then people would be supporting his “actions” by going to whatever job he was placed at to get whatever services his job provided.
So, there is no end to this. There are insecure, cowering people EVERYWHERE you go, and there are good people everywhere you go. Would it be nice to get rid of all the cowards so it does not APPEAR that we are supporting there actions? YEA, but is it going to happen and is it practical? NO, absolutely not.
Just how far can we go with this? And let’s be consistent.
It’s not ok to kill people for food, no. People are not animals, and that’s why it’s not ok to kill people. Although sometimes people may live like animals, they are not animals though. Animals do not have the “image” of God on them, while people do. And people are your fellow neighbor, like yourself.
Your making me think about it through the expression of my present thoughts I am giving you now.
I agree too much is not good. But not enough is not good either.
For those building muscle mass, and those who have BUILT a lot of muscle mass, there body needs MORE protein to HOLD ON to that muscle mass, otherwise they lose it.
There are pro’s and cons to everything. But, one can get out of this con or down side by eating enough balanced nutrients WITH the protein, like fiber and vitamins and carbs and fats because it’s just not ALL about protein.
Madhura
I have heard of that too, however, do you have a PICTURE of a vegetarian body builder who has successfully gained a good amount of muscle mass? If so, may I see it?
I have read an article by a trainer and a natural body builder who said “I have NEVER seen a BIG body builder who was a vegetarian”. < paraphrased.
If you give me a picture of one, I will be very impressed AND on top of it, you may even convert me to being a vegetarian, or at least eating A LOT less amount of meat. But I would have to see a picture first.
Explain more?
Right, they are not being enforced, I believe they should, thus I am not supporting his actions. You could say well by me still buying meat I am supporting his actions because it keeps him having a job. But then are we morally responsible for everyone else’s actions? Or are they responsible for their own actions? Just think if what your saying is true, then to be consistent every time I go to a store who has a lazy worker there and I buy something, lets say a grocery order, or if I am at a home improvement store, I buy a plant, then every time I go there, I am supporting laziness. You see, how far can you go with that?
I don’t believe in smoking, but if I have talked to people WHILE they were smoking at times, does that mean I am supporting smoking? No. I mean how far can you go with this?
I don’t believe in steeling, but I talked and had pleasant conversations with someone WHO DID STEEL, does that mean I support steeling? Just how far can you go with this?
You see, even if this cow beater lost his job, well he would just get a job somewhere else and manifest his INSECURITY and cowardness toward someone else in a different way, and then people would be supporting his “actions” by going to whatever job he was placed at to get whatever services his job provided.
So, there is no end to this. There are insecure, cowering people EVERYWHERE you go, and there are good people everywhere you go. Would it be nice to get rid of all the cowards so it does not APPEAR that we are supporting there actions? YEA, but is it going to happen and is it practical? NO, absolutely not.
Just how far can we go with this? And let’s be consistent.
It’s not ok to kill people for food, no. People are not animals, and that’s why it’s not ok to kill people. Although sometimes people may live like animals, they are not animals though. Animals do not have the “image” of God on them, while people do. And people are your fellow neighbor, like yourself.
Your making me think about it through the expression of my present thoughts I am giving you now.
I agree too much is not good. But not enough is not good either.
For those building muscle mass, and those who have BUILT a lot of muscle mass, there body needs MORE protein to HOLD ON to that muscle mass, otherwise they lose it.
There are pro’s and cons to everything. But, one can get out of this con or down side by eating enough balanced nutrients WITH the protein, like fiber and vitamins and carbs and fats because it’s just not ALL about protein.
Madhura
I have heard of that too, however, do you have a PICTURE of a vegetarian body builder who has successfully gained a good amount of muscle mass? If so, may I see it?
I have read an article by a trainer and a natural body builder who said “I have NEVER seen a BIG body builder who was a vegetarian”. < paraphrased.
If you give me a picture of one, I will be very impressed AND on top of it, you may even convert me to being a vegetarian, or at least eating A LOT less amount of meat. But I would have to see a picture first.
Well I don't have a pic of my friend and wouldn't be able to post his pic withouth is permission but I've looked on google and there are plenty of results for vegetarian bodybuilders with pics. Here are some links:
Vegan Bodybuilding & Fitness
The Vegetarian Bodybuilder
Vegetarian Bodybuilders | Vegetarian Muscle Building and the Vegetarian Bodybuilder
And plenty of pics on google images. If you are willing to trust my word though, I've grow up around a lot of vegetarians because of my religion and the guys grow up to be just as sporty, muscly and gorgeous as any man. In fact, there's less chance of obesity with a meatless diet. Here is a sample menu from one of the websites above, which is what the bodybuilder might eat in a day:
The Vegetarian Bodybuilder
I have to say, when I was in America the guys I lived with were always shovelling down protien bars, drinking protien shakes etc. and not all are bodybuilder- some just go to the gym for a normal workout. These guys have plenty of meat in their diet. I don't understand why they need all this extra protien (and often steroids) to look good and be fit.
PS: lol, you called me Madhura. That' one of my favourite teas.
Jollybear
Hey
Madhuri
That’s interesting, I have to admit they do look great and they are big for being steroid free. This is the first time I seen vegan bodybuilders, I gauss that trainer I read from was sort of sheltered.
Or maybe he was referring to the ratio of size between a dedicated vegan bodybuilder opposed to a dedicated meat body builder and the meat eater is slightly bigger?
I looked at the pictures and watched the youtube videos, what I read though is that they still drink whey protein shakes (which comes from cheese, and cheese comes from cows). And some of them eat eggs (they come from chickens).
Also one of the videos I watched, which you gave me, the guy says and I paraphrase “I took my friends challenge to get big on a vegan diet, but I had to EAT MORE carbs to get MORE protein from the vegetables that were high in protein”.
In other words, yes you can get big by being a vegan body builder, but you will have to eat A LOT MORE then a meat eating body builder to get your daily quota of protein to support your muscle mass.
Because let’s face it, meat has A LOT of protein and it’s more concentrated then vegetable protein, so you’re eating less by eating meat.
I think there are so many different factors involved in being optimally big to one’s full potential. For instance, if someones meat eating diet is the way it suppose to be for building muscle, but there workout is not intense, they won’t build as much muscle as they could. Likewise the person working out correctly but not eating as he suppose to on a meat eating plan, will not build as much muscle as he could have. Likewise, the steroid user, if his eating plan is not right on a meat plan, but he is working out correctly, once again, he is not using his full potential and thus will not be as big as he could be. So that said, lets say you take two people, they are both TWINS, so we have two people who have the same GENETIC GIFTING for muscle growth, you put one on a meat building plan and the other on a vegan plan diet, and there workouts are the SAME in intensity. Which one will build slightly MORE muscle? Yes both will build muscle, no doubt about it, but which one do you think will built SLIGHTLY MORE? Or will it equal to be the same?
Woops, lol. I meant to put the I instead of the A.
Anne
The pictures of the guys you posted who are vegan bodybuilders, do you know if they eat eggs and fish? And whey protein and cheese?
Also is anybody against eating fish, I know you all are against eating meat, like chicken and beef, but what about fish and eggs and cheese and whey, do you think that is morally wrong to eat?
That’s interesting, I have to admit they do look great and they are big for being steroid free. This is the first time I seen vegan bodybuilders, I gauss that trainer I read from was sort of sheltered.
Or maybe he was referring to the ratio of size between a dedicated vegan bodybuilder opposed to a dedicated meat body builder and the meat eater is slightly bigger?
I looked at the pictures and watched the youtube videos, what I read though is that they still drink whey protein shakes (which comes from cheese, and cheese comes from cows). And some of them eat eggs (they come from chickens).
Also one of the videos I watched, which you gave me, the guy says and I paraphrase “I took my friends challenge to get big on a vegan diet, but I had to EAT MORE carbs to get MORE protein from the vegetables that were high in protein”.
In other words, yes you can get big by being a vegan body builder, but you will have to eat A LOT MORE then a meat eating body builder to get your daily quota of protein to support your muscle mass.
Because let’s face it, meat has A LOT of protein and it’s more concentrated then vegetable protein, so you’re eating less by eating meat.
I think there are so many different factors involved in being optimally big to one’s full potential. For instance, if someones meat eating diet is the way it suppose to be for building muscle, but there workout is not intense, they won’t build as much muscle as they could. Likewise the person working out correctly but not eating as he suppose to on a meat eating plan, will not build as much muscle as he could have. Likewise, the steroid user, if his eating plan is not right on a meat plan, but he is working out correctly, once again, he is not using his full potential and thus will not be as big as he could be. So that said, lets say you take two people, they are both TWINS, so we have two people who have the same GENETIC GIFTING for muscle growth, you put one on a meat building plan and the other on a vegan plan diet, and there workouts are the SAME in intensity. Which one will build slightly MORE muscle? Yes both will build muscle, no doubt about it, but which one do you think will built SLIGHTLY MORE? Or will it equal to be the same?
Woops, lol. I meant to put the I instead of the A.
Anne
The pictures of the guys you posted who are vegan bodybuilders, do you know if they eat eggs and fish? And whey protein and cheese?
Also is anybody against eating fish, I know you all are against eating meat, like chicken and beef, but what about fish and eggs and cheese and whey, do you think that is morally wrong to eat?
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DEFENSE MECHANISMS
Tolerating behaviors we object to is not the same as abetting them, Jollybear. [and why is my script suddenly huge? -- I didn't click on any typo instructions] A smoker doesn't smoke because of your actions. The thief isn't indirectly working for you -- you don't create the demand for his stolen goods.
"...let's be consistent." -- remember you said that.
It's not OK to kill people because they're not animals? Come on Jolly, that's worse than circular. It doesn't answer the question at all.
I'm asking for principles; a moral algorithm.
What abstract moral principle/s do you apply in deciding that it's immoral to harvest people for food, and why do these not apply to animals? What unique qualities do people posess that puts them in a seperate moral category from animals? 'Peopleness' or "image of God" won't wash. (Seriously --"image of God?")
Remember "consistency?" There's a principle in Ethics: the Principle of Equal Consideration. A principle must be applied consistently to everything to which it applies.
Can you come up with a legitimate principle withholding you from eating people, that does not equally apply to cows or chickens?
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DallasApple
Depends Upon My Mood..
Vegan Fitness not only has bodybuilders, but they have guys who participate in those intense strongman competitions.
Now, keep in mind...this is a vegan bodybuilder, not vegetarian:
And here's Robert Cheeke:
These guys are in awesome shape, steroid-free.
OH MY GOD!!!!!
They must eat a LOT of SALAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Love
Dallas
Vegetarian bodybuilders will eat whey protein and common dairy products. Vegans won't. I've never spoken to the first guy, but I have spoken with the second, and no...he does not take in any animal products. I'll bet the first doesn't either. Vegans are pretty rigid about that. No eggs, no dairy, no honey.
I don't eat fish.
Vegans avoid ALL animal products because they object to the way animals are used and abused. The conditions chickens and dairy cows have to live in are pretty awful. For many of them, death would be a relief.
As a vegetarian, I try to spend my money on eggs and dairy products produced by smaller, family owned farms...places I think are trying very hard to make sure their animals are treated well. It's not easy though. There is no nation-wide standard, so anyone could make a ************* effort and then slap a happy sticker on their product that says, "Humanely treated!"
In addition to a sparkling clean diet, Robert (Mr. Muscle #2) drinks Vega, a plant-based protein drink that was created by ironman and fellow vegan Brendan Brazier.