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Darwin's Illusion

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
The concept of 'natural selection' still remains in general the response of populations to adapt to a changing environment. Though the concept has changed somewhat since Darwin proposed the Theory of Evolution. The science of Genetics was lacking when Darwin proposed the Theory now called the sciences of evolution. The following reflects a more contemporary view of some aspects of evolution and an interesting read concerning misunderstand among many that evolution is driven by 'random mutations.' Changing environments is the driving force behind evolution, and randomness has no role in the nature of our physical existence. Chaos theory and the fractal nature of the outcomes of cause and effect events is how things operate in our universe within the limits of Natural Laws.

By the way the sciences of evolution are not 'beliefs.'


Since 1859, when Charles Darwin’s On the Origin of Species was first published, the theory of natural selection has dominated our conceptions of evolution. As Darwin understood it, natural selection is a slow and gradual process that takes place across multiple generations through successive random hereditary variations. In the short term, a small variation might confer a slight advantage to an organism and its offspring, such as a longer beak or better camouflage, allowing it to outcompete similar organisms lacking that variation. Over longer periods of time, Darwin postulated, an accumulation of advantageous variations might produce more significant novel adaptations – or even the emergence of an entirely new species.

Natural selection is not a fast process. It takes place gradually through random variations, or ‘mutations’ as we call them today, which accumulate over decades, centuries, or millions of years. Initially, Darwin believed that natural selection was the only process that led to evolution, and he made this explicit in On the Origin of Species:


A lot has changed since 1859. We now know that Darwin’s ‘gradualist’ view of evolution, exclusively driven by natural selection, is no longer compatible with contemporary science. It’s not just that random mutations are one of many evolutionary processes that produce new species; they have nothing to do with the major evolutionary transformations of macroevolution. Species do not emerge from an accumulation of random genetic changes. This has been confirmed by 21st-century genome sequencing, but the idea that natural selection inadequately explains evolutionary change goes back 151 years – to Darwin himself. In the 6th edition of On the Origin of Species, published in 1872, he acknowledged forms of variations that seemed to arise spontaneously, without successive, slight modifications:


Today, we know in exquisite detail how these larger-scale ‘spontaneous’ variations come about without the intervention of random mutations. And yet, even in the age of genome sequencing, many evolutionary scientists still cling stubbornly to a view of evolution fuelled by a gradual accumulation of random mutations. They insist on the accuracy of the mid-20th-century ‘updated’ version of Darwin’s ideas – the ‘Modern Synthesis’ of Darwinian evolution (through natural selection) and Mendelian genetics – and have consistently failed to integrate evidence for other genetic processes. As Ernst Mayr, a major figure in the Modern Synthesis, wrote in Populations, Species and Evolution (1970):


This failure to take account of alternative modes of change has been foundational to popular and scientific misconceptions of evolution. It continues to impact the study of antibiotic and pesticide resistance, the breeding of new crops for agriculture, the mitigation of climate change, and our understanding of humanity’s impacts on biodiversity.

Discoveries like hers should have inspired a radical rethinking of evolution

During the past century, discoveries that have challenged the gradualist view of evolution have been sidelined, forgotten, and derided. This includes the work of 20th-century geneticists such as Hugo de Vries, one of the rediscoverers of Mendelian genetics and the man who gave us the term ‘mutation’, or Richard Goldschmidt, who distinguished between microevolution (change within a species) and macroevolution (changes leading to new species). Their findings were ignored or ridiculed to convey the message that the gradual accumulation of random mutations was the only reasonable explanation for evolution. We can see the absence of other perspectives in popular works by Richard Dawkins, such as The Selfish Gene (1976), The Extended Phenotype (1982), and The Blind Watchmaker (1986); or in textbooks used in universities across the world, such as Evolution (2017) by Douglas Futuyma and Mark Kirkpatrick. However, it’s an absence that’s particularly conspicuous because alternatives to random mutation have not been difficult to find.

One of the most significant of these alternatives is symbiogenesis, the idea that evolution can operate through symbiotic relationships rather than through gradual, successive changes. In the early 20th century, American and Russian scientists such as Konstantin Mereschkowsky, Ivan Wallin and Boris Kozo-Polyansky argued that symbiotic cell fusions had led to the deepest kinds of evolutionary change: the origins of all cells with a nucleus. These arguments about symbiotic cell fusions, despite being vigorously championed by the evolutionary biologist Lynn Margulis in later years, did not find a place in evolutionary textbooks until they were confirmed by DNA sequencing at the end of the 20th century. And yet, even though these arguments have now been confirmed, the underlying cellular processes of symbiotic cell fusions have still not been incorporated into mainstream evolutionary theory.

An interesting read more . . .
Concepts change, when are they called facts?
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Concepts change, when are they called facts?
A fact is an accurate statement about a real state of affairs (that is, a state of affairs existing the world external to you).

The modern theory of evolution is a set of concepts derived from facts.

(Since the supernatural is by definition not part of reality, there are no facts about it, hence none of its concepts is based in fact.)
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
Can you name these Peers?

who are these cosmologists that have been “excommunicated”, @cladking ?

can you name them?

You are still spinning this conspiracy theory, plus your paranoia is showing. :eek:
It seems a different name to hurl as a pejorative like scientism. Pull the pin and lob it in when an argument is lost or was recognized as an empty claim from the start.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Are these your words or are you quoting a long tract?

It is very interesting, but I disagree that some of these examples are ignored. There is a lot of research on transposable elements--McClintock's jumping genes--including research on this mechanism in evolution. It wouldn't be an alternative to evolution, but a mechanism for it. Epigenetics is another that remains of interest to evolutionary biologists and work to facilitate plant breeding is ongoing with efforts to find new varieties through this mechanism.

Natural selection acts on heritable variation that can arise for many reasons, but mutations remain the most significant known source of variation. Other sources would include variation from symbiogenesis, transposable elements, horizontal gene transfer, epigenesis, immigration and drift.

One claim that remains unsustained is Shapiro's idea of directed mutation where the genome anticipates the environment. Examples of this phenomenon have turned out to be misinterpreted natural selection.

Still, a very interesting read. Thanks for posting.
The bottomline is there is no such thing as randomness in the nature of our physical existence much less 'random mutations.'
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
nd
Modern science didn't exist before experiment.

True, so what?
While all the same facts existed, none were known. Most remain unknown.

'Arguing from ignorance' concerning the knowledge of contemporary knowledge and methods of science does not justify your agenda.

No, most do not remain unknown, unless you are going to appeal to esoteric philosophy and theology to justify what you believe, which indeed ventures into the unknown.

What are these 'most unknowns' that involve the sciences concerning our physical existence? Be specific.concerning the nature of our physical existence. Yes there are unanswered questions in ALL sciences. That is the nature of science. Previous threads you have resorted to this nebulous open philosophical statements of 'unknowns' without constructive explanations or references.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It seems to me that survival of the fittest refers to those who adapt to their environment and keep living while other species similar to them do not adapt, therefore the species does not survive.
Continuing to live until a natural death is not what is meant by survival of the fittest. Fitness is not defined in terms of survival of individuals, all of whom die, but in terms of reproduction and gene frequency in the population - survival of genes. The fittest gene is the one with the most copies in the gene pool.
This is the chief problem with language. Definitions not only evolve over time but everyone has a different definition for every word. Every word has an infinite number of definitions and connotations so all communication is ephemeral ands metaphysical. This time I mean "metaphysical" in its magical definition. Because definitions vary we must parse every utterance in real time to force it to make meaning. This meaning is never exactly what the author intended. Few people even realize they are doing it but each of us learn this as the chief part of language acquisition. Is is not a natural language to need to differentiate between "two", "to", "too", and "Tim Buck too". We do it to communicate and in doing so we lose the ability to use the natural human language.
Yet we communicate effectively enough to have built a technological civilization and to get through daily life meeting out communications needs: "Sorry, I forgot we had something on the 3rd. We could do Saturday the 8th? 4pm? No not 4th of july celebration, lol. Sometimes retired life is so difficult. The schedule is getting full." "OK, Saturday the 8th at 4:00 it is! We’ll be there with bells…and umbrellas?!? Jeez, how it is July already? Never mind!" I think both parties communicated effectively.
Our words have no "meaning", only definitions. Meaning is created when the words are formatted grammatically in a sentence.
Words have no intrinsic meanings, but they do have meanings assigned by convention, and the meaning becomes clearer as context is added.
There is a scientific language but it is neither formal nor standard.
Disagree twice. From Maintaining Formal Tone in Scientific Writing | AJE
  • 'Scientific' English differs from everyday written English.
  • Adhering to common conventions of academic writing will help peer reviewers and readers feel like a manuscript belongs as part of the scholarly literature.
  • Take care with field-specific terms and avoid informal-sounding (and sometimes vague) terms like 'nowadays' or 'get.'
Few people can make heads or tails of things written even a century ago.
That's irrelevant. Few people can use a slide rule either and for the same reason: they don't need to. What's evolved is the common vernacular, not the precise scientific definitions. Newton wrote force = mass x acceleration. There may have been some King James English in Principia, but the science reads the same then and now.
If the sky is blue then there is no sky on the moon because it lacks sufficient atmosphere to affect color.
You're looking for problems we don't actually have. Look at how well you're communicating now.
People say things like Apollo orbited the moon but the reality is Apollo and the moon orbited one another.
Yes, but they still communicate effectively.
as I continually maintain you can't reduce the complexity without understanding consciousness which is the cause of most or all speciation.
You've made the claim, but not the case. Darwin says its due to natural selection acting on genetic variation across generations, and has made a compelling argument for this. If you are correct, you should be able to show that Darwin was wrong, but you can't. You can't falsify Darwin. You haven't even offered a defense of your position, which you would need to do even if you could falsify Darwin.
Everything in reality is always changing. Why would anyone expect an abstraction like "species" to remain the same?
We don't. We expect it to evolve.
Should I define "metaphysics" again (basis of science)?
Not unless you choose a definition that is specific enough that a person could agree or disagree with it. I don't know what the above means. For me, the basis of science (the most fundamental underlying principles) is skepticism and empiricism - no idea should be believed just because somebody says it, but rather, should be investigated by observing and testing nature. There's an idea that you can understand and agree or disagree with. I think you would disagree, but that's not my point. Haven't you also defined experiment as the basis of science?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I agree.

An authentic nothing is nowhere, notime, has no energy, no fields, no quantum phenomena, no anything. Nothing can come of a true nothing.
I don't know if he's right, nor are we likely to ever know with certainty what started our universe, but I don't think there are many cosmologists and quantum physicists that would negate his hypothesis out of hand.

Quantum mechanics is really weird as even Einstein opposed it, but since then it has been established as being reality. Matter of fact, Google just announced that it has made the first quantum computer, and my oldest granddaughter worked on the math part of that project because of her work at the University of Michigan.

Again, the quantum "world" goes against what all of us "oldies" were taught, so a different paradigm for us is now called for.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I don't know if he's right, nor are we likely to ever know with certainty what started our universe, but I don't think there are many cosmologists and quantum physicists that would negate his hypothesis out of hand.

Quantum mechanics is really weird as even Einstein opposed it, but since then it has been established as being reality. Matter of fact, Google just announced that it has made the first quantum computer, and my oldest granddaughter worked on the math part of that project because of her work at the University of Michigan.

Again, the quantum "world" goes against what all of us "oldies" were taught, so a different paradigm for us is now called for.

An important point here is there is no evidence of anything one may call the philosophical 'absolute nothing.' What is sometimes misnamed and described as nothing in Quantum Mechanics is not 'absolute nothing.'

Quantum Mechanics is not entirely new. In the 1920's the basic concepts began to be established by . . .


"Building on de Broglie's approach, modern quantum mechanics was born in 1925, when the German physicists Werner Heisenberg, Max Born, and Pascual Jordan[23][24] developed matrix mechanics and the Austrian physicist Erwin Schrödinger invented wave mechanics and the non-relativistic Schrödinger equation as an approximation of the generalised case of de Broglie's theory.[25] Schrödinger subsequently showed that the two approaches were equivalent. The first applications of quantum mechanics to physical systems were the algebraic determination of the hydrogen spectrum by Wolfgang Pauli[26] and the treatment of diatomic molecules by Lucy Mensing"

At this time the nature of the very very small in physics began to understood where Newtonian physics doe not apply..
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Concepts change, when are they called facts?

So vague it is difficult to respond to. To add: The fundamental concept in science is Methodological Naturalism, which is based on objective evidence and of course facts, This method confirms the validity of facts, which are lacking in philosophical.theological assertions without science.
 
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cladking

Well-Known Member
Yet we communicate effectively enough to have built a technological civilization and to get through daily life meeting out communications needs: "Sorry, I forgot we had something on the 3rd. We could do Saturday the 8th? 4pm? No not 4th of july celebration, lol. Sometimes retired life is so difficult. The schedule is getting full." "OK, Saturday the 8th at 4:00 it is! We’ll be there with bells…and umbrellas?!? Jeez, how it is July already? Never mind!" I think both parties communicated effectively.
You just don't notice when communication fails.

If you make an assignation on Saturday the 8th at midnight there is a good chance (~20) that your date will show up 24 hours early because most people erroneously believe midnight comes at the end of the day and some believe it's at the beginning of the day. Indeed don't make noontime appointments at 12 PM or AM because there's no such thing.

The whole world is a complex mass of miscommunication but we've yet to go extinct anyway. Machines are not the result of science as people believe. They are the result of technology. The Egyptians operated a water lifting device called a "shaduf" without understanding the nature of the gravity that powered it and we landed a man on the moon with little more understanding than the pyramid builders. Progress is and always was a product not of genius, science, or good paradigms but rather of language. It is language that allows us to think therefore we are. Modern language is confused and nobody will parse any of these words as they are intended. Most will see no meaning and few who reply would play word games without addressing the meaning.

I've see people engaging in two different conversations! It is not uncommon! Ancient people called our language "confused" and they were exactly right.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
You just don't notice when communication fails.

If you make an assignation on Saturday the 8th at midnight there is a good chance (~20) that your date will show up 24 hours early because most people erroneously believe midnight comes at the end of the day and some believe it's at the beginning of the day. Indeed don't make noontime appointments at 12 PM or AM because there's no such thing.

The whole world is a complex mass of miscommunication but we've yet to go extinct anyway. Machines are not the result of science as people believe. They are the result of technology. The Egyptians operated a water lifting device called a "shaduf" without understanding the nature of the gravity that powered it and we landed a man on the moon with little more understanding than the pyramid builders. Progress is and always was a product not of genius, science, or good paradigms but rather of language. It is language that allows us to think therefore we are. Modern language is confused and nobody will parse any of these words as they are intended. Most will see no meaning and few who reply would play word games without addressing the meaning.

I've see people engaging in two different conversations! It is not uncommon! Ancient people called our language "confused" and they were exactly right.
This is a meaningless mess, and incoherent, description of your view of chaotic personal communications which is not the reality, because human communications even at the subject personal level are reasonably well understood. This to a degree this may describe the dialogue between the many diverse conflicting fallible human views of the many religions and belief systems.

The closest thing to this conundrum is an extreme philosophical Nihilist view of our existence.


"extreme skepticism maintaining that nothing in the world has a real existence."

The bottomline this is not reflected in science, and you need to be more specific as to the 'many unknowns ffo science.'
 
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YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
You just don't notice when communication fails.

If you make an assignation on Saturday the 8th at midnight there is a good chance (~20) that your date will show up 24 hours early because most people erroneously believe midnight comes at the end of the day and some believe it's at the beginning of the day. Indeed don't make noontime appointments at 12 PM or AM because there's no such thing.

The whole world is a complex mass of miscommunication but we've yet to go extinct anyway. Machines are not the result of science as people believe. They are the result of technology. The Egyptians operated a water lifting device called a "shaduf" without understanding the nature of the gravity that powered it and we landed a man on the moon with little more understanding than the pyramid builders. Progress is and always was a product not of genius, science, or good paradigms but rather of language. It is language that allows us to think therefore we are. Modern language is confused and nobody will parse any of these words as they are intended. Most will see no meaning and few who reply would play word games without addressing the meaning.

I've see people engaging in two different conversations! It is not uncommon! Ancient people called our language "confused" and they were exactly right.
Still wondering why believers in the process of evolution determine why chimpanzees and gorillas did not graduate to more advanced degrees. In comparison with humans? Sure I know that chimpanzees can break open things or throw rocks but more advanced inventions than that? No hardware stores run by chimpanzees or gorillas so far.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
This is a meaningless mess, and incoherent...

So what day do you believe midnight falls on?

What I said was logical, apt, and relevant and you call it "incoherent" proving my point. I even predicted it, remember? "Modern language is confused and nobody will parse any of these words as they are intended. Most will see no meaning and few who reply would play word games without addressing the meaning.".

This is the nature of the language of homo omnisciencis and the reason chinese telephone works. It's also the reason science changes one funeral at a time. We perceive we are relaying truth and reality just as we heard them but in fact we each have different beliefs and models. We each perceive our own reality where the earth orbits the sun (it does not) and it is round (it is not) or that it's spherical (it is not unless terms are defined as we perceive our reality). We think we can step into any river but the reality is we and every "river" is continually changing. And then we change the names of rivers to further complicate things.

You can't see this because you'd rather pronounce what someone else says as "incoherent" rather than parse it so it makes sense.

Many people now days believe in science and people who share beliefs and premises have a far easier time of actually communicating. It's still chinese telephone but the message evolves more slowly. Just as a group of rabbis can achieve good communication so too can scientists or believers in science.

I believe you can still understand where Darwin wrong without understanding that language was much of the cause. Your post a few back looked pretty good and contained quite a bit on which we agree. So why do you believe in gradual change that isn't seen and not supported by experiment? I didn't mention it but the concept that there is nothing random is rather extreme and probably unprovable. I'm beginning to suspect it's true but there's only a 50: 50 chance I'm right. :cool:
 
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cladking

Well-Known Member
Words have no intrinsic meanings, but they do have meanings assigned by convention, and the meaning becomes clearer as context is added.

No. They have no meaning intrinsic nor by convention. All meaning of words is derived through context. No sentence can be long enough to convey this thought but judges impose a long sentence that miscreants might learn a lesson. This is why language acquisition is so difficult for every individual. They seek meaning in words where there none. We must learn how to parse words. In doing so we learn a new way to think and act; homo omnisciencis.

Even definitions are highly ephemeral because they are composed of words and vary from source to source.


"Tone" is neither formal nor standard.

"Sounding" like a scientist is easy. What's difficult is agreeing with all the premises and assumptions.

You've made the claim, but not the case. Darwin says its due to natural selection acting on genetic variation across generations, and has made a compelling argument for this. If you are correct, you should be able to show that Darwin was wrong, but you can't. You can't falsify Darwin. You haven't even offered a defense of your position, which you would need to do even if you could falsify Darwin.
Of course his argument is "compelling" and logical. but it is also wrong and doesn't agree with observation while being unsupported by experiment. it is also dependent on several false assumptions. Some of the most beautiful hypotheses in physics et al have proven be be wrong.

If it weren't "compelling" how could it stand for a century and a half despite being wrong?

We don't. We expect it to evolve.

You're using "evolve" as a synonym for "gradual change in species caused by survival of the fittest". The "fossil record" only shows that they did change and sheds no light on the cause. Very few people dispute the flora and fauna change. More and more people dispute Darwin.

Not unless you choose a definition that is specific enough that a person could agree or disagree with it.

[sigh]

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You don't get to choose definitions for other peoples' words.

I'm surprised you say such a thing!!!

Words have no meaning so how can you disagree with one. I don't believe in "beavers" for instance. But when you refer to a buck toothed tail slapping rodent as a "beaver" I don't get to agree or disagree with your word. When I say I'm using the word "metaphysics" to mean the basis of science your opinion is irrelevant.

I don't really believe in taxonomies and abstractions (most of modern language) but I STILL MUST KNOW WHAT THEY MEAN. I still must use them to express what I'm thinking.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
It seems to me that survival of the fittest refers to those who adapt to their environment and keep living while other species similar to them do not adapt, therefore the species does not survive.
Wrong. It refers, not to species being selected, but to those individuals within a species population that have advantageous traits for the environment they inhabit, which they pass on to their offspring.

It is nothing to do with individuals adapting to the environment, since that is behavioural and not inherited, but to the adaptive effect that natural selection has over successive generations, due to more breeding success of those that have inherited the advantageous trait.
 
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YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
So what day do you believe believe falls on?

What I said was logical, apt, and relevant and you call it "incoherent" proving my point. I even predicted it, remember? "Modern language is confused and nobody will parse any of these words as they are intended. Most will see no meaning and few who reply would play word games without addressing the meaning.".

This is the nature of the language of homo omnisciencis and the reason chinese telephone works. It's also the reason science changes one funeral at a time. We perceive we are relaying truth and reality just as we heard them but in fact we each have different beliefs and models. We each perceive our own reality where the earth orbits the sun (it does not) and it is round (it is not) or that it's spherical (it is not unless terms are defined as we perceive our reality). We think we can step into any river but the reality is we and every "river" is continually changing. And then we change the names of rivers to further complicate things.

You can't see this because you'd rather pronounce what someone else says as "incoherent" rather than parse it so it makes sense.

Many people now days believe in science and people who share beliefs and premises have a far easier time of actually communicating. It's still chinese telephone but the message evolves more slowly. Just as a group of rabbis can achieve good communication so too can scientists or believers in science.

I believe you can still understand where Darwin wrong without understanding that language was much of the cause. Your post a few back looked pretty good and contained quite a bit on which we agree. So why do you believe in gradual change that isn't seen and not supported by experiment? I didn't mention it but the concept that there is nothing random is rather extreme and probably unprovable. I'm beginning to suspect it's true but there's only a 50: 50 chance I'm right. :cool:
Whether you realize it or not, your way of ascertaining on what day does 'believe' fall on is in harmony with what God told Adam (& Eve). Eve believed the one later identified as the Devil, she thought she could figure for herself about what was right from wrong. She didn't believe God. She didn't check with the one who told her (Adam). And we can see what that led to in the human race. The evidence is clear. For me and others, anyway. Take care.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Wrong. It refers, not to species being selected, but to those individuals within a species population that have advantageous traits for the environment they inhabit.
You have your possibly scientific way of looking at it. So take care, bye for now.
 
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