Darwin's Illusion

[shunyadragon]

I guess I'm using random in the wrong way. Might be better off saying uncommon or rare.

Uncommon and rare like random are concepts from the human perspective.Natural Laws and processes are indifferent. Chaos theory explains the variability of the outcomes of cause and effect events within the limited range of possible outcomes whether rare or common.

What is by the way random is the timing of individual cause and effect events. The timing of an individual decay event in the radioactive decay of a mineral, but the rate of decay of the radioactive mineral follows a consistent pattern and predicable over time. This is also true of mutations the timing of an individual mutation is not predictable, but the pattern and nature of mutations over time is predictable. The individual atoms and molecules involved in cause and effect events follow the Laws of Nature and processes.

 

[John53]

Uncommon and rare like random are concepts from the human perspective.Natural Laws and processes are indifferent. Chaos theory explains the variability of the outcomes of cause and effect events within the limited range of possible outcomes whether rare or common.

What is by the way random is the timing of individual cause and effect events. The timing of an individual decay event in the radioactive decay of a mineral, but the rate of decay of the radioactive mineral follows a consistent pattern and predicable over time. This is also true of mutations the timing of an individual mutation is not predictable, but the pattern and nature of mutations over time is predictable. The individual atoms and molecules involved in cause and effect events follow the Laws of Nature and processes.

Random and unpredictable are synonyms in my brain. I understand your point (I think) but it seems a touch pedantic.

 

[shunyadragon]

According to anyone that has studied the topic. Yes we got words from the Arabic language. And it was known that at one point that Arabic people were making advances. But your own ignorance of the scientific method shows why the Arabic people failed and much of their knowledge was lost. It is why Europeans are rightfully accredited with developing the scientific method. Are you aware that before the Arabs the Chinese were at the forefront? And worse yet you keep ignoring where our modern numerical system came from. The shape of our numbers are Arabic. But the concept of the decimal system is Indian.

A lot of ideas did survive the effects of Islam on Arabic societies. But the ability to point to specific Arabs that were far ahead of anyone else then does not help you. The scientific method has one step that was key to its development. And it also tells us that you do not understand the scientific method at all. It also explains why you and so many other creationists fail when they attack Darwin. I even told you why they failed.


So what important part of the scientific method did the Arabs not develop?

I believe the Arabs developed the first Scientific Method that dis lead to the advances in Arabic science. The reason they failed is the collapse under the Religious buerocracy, division into sects, and corruption.

Ibn Al-Haytham: Father of Modern Optics - PMC

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Ibn al-Haytham developed rigorous experimental methods of controlled scientific testing in order to verify theoretical hypotheses and substantiate inductive conjectures. Ibn al-Haytham’s scientific method was very similar to the modern scientific method and consisted of a repeating cycle of observation, hypothesis, experimentation, and the need for independent verification.5,6
Gorini wrote the following on Ibn al-Haytham’s introduction of the scientific method: “According to the majority of the historians, al-Haytham was the pioneer of the modern scientific method. With his book, he changed the meaning of the term “optics”, and established experiments as the norm of proof in the field. His investigations were based not on abstract theories, but on experimental evidences. His experiments were systematic and repeatable”.7

 

[shunyadragon]

Random and unpredictable are synonyms in my brain. I understand your point (I think) but it seems a touch pedantic.

Yes random and unpredictable are synonyms. Read the previous post again. It is not pedantic it is the observed nature of the variability of outcomes of cause and effect events in nature.

 

[shunyadragon]

Leucism is an example of a mutation that can adversly affect fitness. It's makes the bird or animal much more vulnerable to predation or unable to hunt because they lose the camouflage advantage, which is why we see a lot of white birds and animals in captivity but not in the wild.

You either misuse Leucism or do not understand it. Leucism is often not related to genetic mutations. There are many white or light colored animals that survive very we dependent on the environment.

 

[shunyadragon]

True, mutations are never random. See #1245

Darwin's Illusion | Page 63 | Religious Forums

No, even if the cause/mechanism is not known but neither mutations are random, nor the outcomes of mutations appear to be random. It’s mostly a response to environmental pressure or change that causes non-random adaptation such as the well-known ability of Microorganisms to survive against the drugs designed to kill them (Antimicrobial Resistance).

How can a functional/atheistic purpose, such as anatomical symmetry constitute a driving force that controls a mindless random mutation process?

So, if mutations are random, we should see lots of examples of deformations or additional body parts such as limbs growing out in the wrong location of the body.

The only significant example that I'm aware of is the fruit flies, including strange deformations such as legs growing out of their heads in place of antennae or in place of mouth parts. Even so such deformations are rare exceptions but without the exceptions, we cannot understand/appreciate the rule. Without the sickness, we wouldn’t appreciate the health. Without the darkness, we wouldn’t appreciate the light.

Homeotic Genes and Body Patterns (utah.edu)

If mutations are random, then we should see a lot more of these incidents, not just anatomically proportional variations but also non- proportional deformations.

Per the ToE, the emergence of such random changes is the only route to what can be eventually perceived as purposeful design through the purification process of natural selection.

But in fact, earliest body plans since the Cambrian period exhibited the same anatomical symmetry without any evidence of random transitional forms towards the development of these body plans.

Mutations are not random.

 

[John53]

You either misuse Leucism or do not understand it. Leucism is often not related to genetic mutations. There are many white or light colored animals that survive very we dependent on the environment.

Sure but there's also many that die because they stand out like the proverbial. They either starve, become food or are shunned by their own species. On the other hand it may be a benefit if they live and/or hunt in snow or a white sandy beach.

 

[Audie]

We have a slew of different gulls and terns here. Perhaps it was typo and she meant Sea-gal.

15 Types of Gulls (and Terns) Found in Washington! (state)

Learn the types of GULLS and TERNS in Washington and how to identify them. How many of these gulls and terns have YOU seen?

birdwatchinghq.com

View attachment 79973

Seagal

We have a slew of different gulls and terns here. Perhaps it was typo and she meant Sea-gal.

15 Types of Gulls (and Terns) Found in Washington! (state)

Learn the types of GULLS and TERNS in Washington and how to identify them. How many of these gulls and terns have YOU seen?

birdwatchinghq.com

View attachment 79973

Correct. I meant Seagal. But I'm not sure he is
white. I think there's something wrong with him.

 

[Audie]

Random and unpredictable are synonyms in my brain. I understand your point (I think) but it seems a touch pedantic.

Only took 8 lines.

 

[shunyadragon]

Sure but there's also many that die because they stand out like the proverbial. They either starve, become food or are shunned by their own species. On the other hand it may be a benefit if they live and/or hunt in snow or a white sandy beach.

Itis obvious that some in a species die, because for one reason or another they are not as well adapted. That is the nature of 'Matura Selection'

Noneth;ess white is the color of advantage in many species, because of adaptation to the environment, which is how evolution worls.

 

[John53]

Itis obvious that some in a species die, because for one reason or another they are not as well adapted. That is the nature of 'Matura Selection'

Noneth;ess white is the color of advantage in many species, because of adaptation to the environment, which is how evolution worls.

Which is what I said along with white can be a disadvantage

 

[Audie]

Correct, I haven't, I believe there is no such thing as a Seagull, it seems to be a generic name for some sea birds. I have seen 3 species of Gull, Pacific Gull, Kelp Gull and Silver Gull around here. The first two are very uncommon vagrants to my area, Silver Gulls on the other hand are numerous.

Interestingly (for me at least), even though adult Silver Gulls are white and light grey their chicks are a mottled brown. I'm guessing because they're a ground nesting species it is for camouflage so a leucistic Silver Gull would most likely become dinner for a predator because it would stand out. It all points to natural selection in my opinion.

I was going to waffle on about Sulphur-crested Cockatoos and my thoughts on how all white birds survive but I'll spare you.

It's not sparing me. I'm more a fan of fish and reptiles than birds but it's all biology.

 

[Audie]

Which is what I said along with white can be a disadvantage

He's doing better. Only needed 4 lines.

 

[Audie]

I guess I'm using random in the wrong way. Might be better off saying uncommon or rare.

Two words v 20 lines

 

[John53]

Two words v 20 lines

Should I invest in an abacus?

 

[John53]

It's not sparing me. I'm more a fan of fish and reptiles than birds but it's all biology.

Birdist!

 

[shunyadragon]

Which is what I said along with white can be a disadvantage

Your previous responses were confusing at best.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Mutations are not random.

I'm not sure I'm following you. Are you claiming that organisms direct mutations that are beneficial to anticipated selection?

 

[Audie]

Should I invest in an abacus?

V a co -respondent w Turgoid blatherosis your
usual incisive brevity needs help from no device

 

[Audie]

Birdist!

Does it help that i dont eat them?