• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Darwin's Illusion

cladking

Well-Known Member
Does it make you proud to make up strawman for you to attack?
What you quoted was an obvious truism or virtual tautology according to me.

How in the hell is that a "strawman!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is believers who twist other peoples' ideas into something they can attack. This is what YOU do. Not me!!!! This is what the believers do in every thread. I rarely see the "religious" individuals do this. This is YOUR tactic.

Does it make you feel good to boost your inflated ego, to take out of context what other people say??

How does synopsizing your beliefs take anything out of context. I suppose you believe that if I generated a page of equations it would only be right if my conclusion agreed with the idea that the universe wasn't in an infinitely small place before the BB because we can't project back that far!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

For the uninitiated in physics the claim is that the universe existed in its entirety within a place much smaller than the period at the end of this sentence. The claim is we'll be able to see it ever smaller as math and science improves. BUT IT DID NOT EXIST IN A THEORETICAL POINT!!!!! Amazing isn't it?

I'm not suggesting cosmology is necessarily wrong even though every believer believes i am necessarily wrong about everything, and that I'm as wrong as Congress. I am merely saying that the BB could be an artefact of math and I even SHOWED EXACTLY HOW it could be such an artefact. If there are no real dimensions and things are merely separated by the speed of light OR there are FIVE DIMENSIONS and the point is the 5th then it would be an artefact of our definitions and assumptions rather than having a referent in reality. There are no do8ubt a virtually infinite number of reasons that out equations suggest life originated from a point but believers believe. It's what they do. It's what you do. It's what all homo omnisciencis does. We can't help it once we grow a brocas area and, by God, we all have one.

Now you will address not one word or one idea in this post. You'll gainsay it in its entirety or make a veritable army of strawfolk and render them asunder.

I don't know why I keep looking for a real argument after all this time.
 
Last edited:

cladking

Well-Known Member
For the uninitiated in physics the claim is that the universe existed in its entirety within a place much smaller than the period at the end of this sentence. The claim is we'll be able to see it ever smaller as math and science improves. BUT IT DID NOT EXIST IN A THEORETICAL POINT!!!!! Amazing isn't it?

And this even though the dictionary itself mistakenly says that its density was infinite!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I believe I understand the math here, and I'm sure I did in the past. Correct me if I'm wrong but to have infinite density you need mass to exist in no space at all, which just happens to be the definition of a "point".

But you think science runs on evidence, scientific communication is perfect, and some experiment shows Darwin was right. You think metaphysics is magic and science don't need no stinkin' basis in definitions and axioms. You think science has answered every question even before we know what questions to ask. This is the problem with science, too few metaphysicians who can tell us what we know and what we don't.
 
Last edited:

cladking

Well-Known Member
A dictionary!? Are you serious?

Words have meaning. Just because you intentionally twist peoples' ideas into something else doesn't make the idea go away. My argument stands no matter how many strawmen you create, no matter how you parse my words, and no matter if it disagrees with your beliefs or not. You're such a big fan of "evidence" why don't you present one to show I'm wrong about something. Every post I say you're wrong and present evidence. You present irrelevancies, beliefs, and arguments against something I don't even believe. You lecture and gainsay.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member

That's remarkable! One person doesn't think the definitions of words matter and another believes consciousness, thought, and language don't matter.

That is one mighty magical science you believe in. Just look and see and if you're an expert that's what is real. I suppose you also believe science is as immutable and fixed as mathematics and just as certain that the transitive property always hold, Evolution exists exactly as is believed.

That is a far more powerful magic than a Creator. Could God make a stone so large that science itself can't move it?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Words have meaning. Just because you intentionally twist peoples' ideas into something else doesn't make the idea go away. My argument stands no matter how many strawmen you create, no matter how you parse my words, and no matter if it disagrees with your beliefs or not. You're such a big fan of "evidence" why don't you present one to show I'm wrong about something. Every post I say you're wrong and present evidence. You present irrelevancies, beliefs, and arguments against something I don't even believe. You lecture and gainsay.
No, words have usage. They do not have an inherent meaning.

And how soon you forget. You lost the right to demand evidence.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
No, words have usage.

That explains a lot of the posts. If words don't have definitions then you can just choose any "usage" you desire. This means all words uttered by religious people have only religious usages and all words spoken by scientists are right so long as they are Peer reviewed.

Of course there are no legitimate usage of words if they are made by people who don't believe in science.

The fact of the matter is you are supposed to try to deconstruct EVERY sentence in terms of the definitions and what the author means. You aren't supposed to deconstruct it so that it makes no sense when the speaker doesn't share every one of your beliefs in real science or in "Evolution". Perhaps you don't understand why this is? Spoiler alert; it's because conversations are for the purpose of communication. There is no communication when words have "usage" and no "definitions". "Usage" and no "definitions" is kindda how Ancient Language worked. Every word had one "usage" and no "definitions". We might as well be speaking ancient Egyptian or Finnish as far as two way communication is concerned.
 
Last edited:

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
That explains a lot of the posts. If words don't have definitions then you can just choose any "usage" you desire. This means all words uttered by religious people have only religious usages and all words spoken by scientists are right so long as they are Peer reviewed.

Of course there are no legitimate usage of words if they are made by people who don't believe in religion.

The fact of the matter is you are supposed to try to deconstruct EVERY sentence in terms of the definitions and what the author means. You aren't supposed to deconstruct it so that it makes no sense when the speaker doesn't share every one of your beliefs in real science or in "Evolution". Perhaps you don't understand why this is? Spoiler alert; it's because conversations are for the purpose of communication. There is no communication when words have "usage" and no "definitions". "Usage" and no "definitions" is kindda how Ancient Language worked. Every word had one "usage" and no "definitions". We might as well be speaking ancient Egyptian or Finnish as far as two way communication is concerned.
Sorry, but you can't do that either. And you know nothing of languages so why even bring them up?

Words have usages. Often more than one. Dictionaries can tell you the current usages, but knowing which one is correct to use comes from understanding context.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Lol.

Well, I'm a little guilty of tilting at this strawman myself. But it's only because the theory is so ludicrous. It holds that the universe and everything emerged from a point that was smaller than we can measure and that if we could see back in time just a little further it would be even smaller. For all intents and purposes the universe somehow fit in a space so small it is theoretical. And then when we look at the metaphysics that generated such nonsense we see that a point isn't even a dimension at all and the "smallest" dimension is a line.

Obviously the big bang was generated by our axioms and mathematics or God mustta squeezed everything into a point so small that it had no dimensions at all. Of course with entire universes popping out of "nothing at all" is a tiny step to every point in space popping out new universes from nothing at all and living in a world where there are an infinite number of worlds with an infinite number of pyramids and all built with ramps.

Maybe God is just making fun of us and no one gets it. We all see what we believe and now we've created a multiverse with an infinite growth rate where what we believe holds everywhere.

What we believe is and always has been nonsense but we still can only see reality in terms of said beliefs.
The BB is an observed fact. It has not yet risen to theory status, inasmuch as science doesn't have a testable explanation yet.

You criticize the BB as "something from nothing." Doesn't your "goddidit!"
explanation posit exactly this; magically poofing things into existence?; a universe from nothing?

Science does not presume to explain the BB. It is not a theory, just an observation.

Science seeks to explain. Religion only attributes. God is an agent, not an explanation. "Goddidit"is not a mechanism, it's a claim of magic.
You seem to think magic is more reasonable than natural mechanism.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Science does not presume to explain the BB. It is not a theory, just an observation.

It's funny how just a few years ago this "observation" said that the universe might collapse back in on itself or maybe expand forever but no believer missed a beat when it was discovered the expansion is accelerating!!

I believe there is every possibility (nay, a virtual certainty) that both religion and science are wrong. I believe it is a certainty that every belief ever held by any individual homo omnisciencis will prove to be wrong or, at best, right from only one perspective.

My guess as previously stated is that the observation is wrong. It is based on flawed assumptions and definitions. But even if it's true the universe didn't really emerge from a point but rather it already existed in its entirety and simply appeared to emerge from a point. I seriously doubt that the logic that IS nature allows for the instantaneous creation of universes to fulfill some function in an equation. I can't even get drink of something cold to appear some times so I doubt any cosmologist can create an infinite number of universes with an infinite number of ramps or otherwise. Reality doesn't care about what any human believes nor does it give up its secrets to those who think you can postulate reality based on observation or evidence. Darwin thought you could do this and many millions died and it will be decades more cleaning up the mess he left; one funeral at a time.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It's funny how just a few years ago this "observation" said that the universe might collapse back in on itself or maybe expand forever but no believer missed a beat when it was discovered the expansion is accelerating!!
A few years ago, none of the conjectures was presented as a fact, they were being discussed as possibilities, pending further data.
Well, now we've finally amassed enough observed data to declare one of the scenarios to be a fact. Oddly enough, it was none of the popular ones.

Don't confuse "popular" science, conjecture, hypotheses, fact and theory.
None of the proposed possibilities was ever a fact or theory.
My guess as previously stated is that the observation is wrong. It is based on flawed assumptions and definitions.
An observation is not based on assumptions. It's not based on anything. An observation is simply an observation. Assumptions may be drawn from it, and hypotheses proposed, but it remains just an observed thing or process.
 
Last edited:

cladking

Well-Known Member
A few years ago, none of the conjectures was presented as a fact, they were being discussed as possibilities, pending further data.
Well, now we've finally amassed enough observed data to declare one of the scenarios to be a fact. Oddly enough, it was none of the popular ones.

Don't confuse "popular" science, conjecture, hypotheses, fact and theory.
None of the proposed possibilities was ever a fact or theory.

At last we know everything!!!

This has been the mantra for every new discovery for 4000 years even when it upsets the applecart.

An observation is not based on assumptions.

Of course it is. Whether one is a scientist or not we still see what we believe. The only thing that differentiates an observation from Looking and Seeing is a scientific perspective. \

It's not based on anything.

All evidence is an interpretation.

I know how science works. I don't think you know how minds work.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
No, words have usage. They do not have an inherent meaning.

And how soon you forget. You lost the right to demand evidence.
Sorry, but you can't do that either. And you know nothing of languages so why even bring them up?

Words have usages. Often more than one. Dictionaries can tell you the current usages, but knowing which one is correct to use comes from understanding context.

The problem is that cladking don’t any other language, except English.

Plus, he has been claiming that “observation” and “evidence” are all “INTERPRETATIONS” and not real science, that sciences are those that have “experiments”.

Except that “experiments” are “observations” and they are “evidence”.

All I see is that cladking is misrepresenting these words, taking the words out-of-context, and redefining them only to suit & justify his wishful fantasies.

Among his fantasies, is that some Stone Age symbols, 40,000 years old, that appeared around some sites around the world, are some writing of single language, spoken and written.

PLUS, this language is untranslatable to any modern languages, and yet he know that these symbols are a metaphysical language, and 40,000 years ago this language was language of true scientists, those Paleolithic people were scientists.

But 4000 years ago, an imaginary Tower of Babel, which he borrowed from Genesis 11, caused confusion among multiple languages and, no after this, including today, don’t know real science.

Before the Tower of Babel, one language was spoken and written, then magically many languages were in used, and these the Homo sapiens became extinct, in its place is his invented “homo omnisciencis”.

All of these claims, cladking’s narrative, are merely fantasies, wishful belief.

If cladking don’t know how to read any other languages than English, then how could be know that the 40,000 years old symbols say? If he can’t translate those symbols, then how could cladking possibly know what they say, and that symbols are language of science?

Saying that these symbols contain scientific knowledge, would require people being able to translate and read what those symbols mean.

But no one were able translate and read them, and he admitted that they are impossible to translate, AND YET, he already know what they mean. To him, these cave-inscribed symbols point to a single metaphysical language, containing true science.

This is nothing more than interpretation as to what those symbols mean. He is not thinking logically, and he know squat as to understanding how any language can be understood without translation.

He basically shot himself in the foot, and not realizing that his claims and interpretations have no logic.

He also ignore that the 3rd millennium BCE before his 4000 years ago Tower of Babel, there were already multiple languages spoken in the Near East - Egypt (eg Egyptian), the Levant (eg the Semitic Amorite, spoken in northern Syria, southeast Turkey and northwest Iraq), 2 languages in south and central Iraq (eg Sumerian, and later the Semitic Akkadian) and western Iran (eg Elamite).

There were also 2 written languages in Egypt, the earliest hieroglyphs discovered 3300 years ago, and the cursive hieratic 3100 years ago.

While the earliest form of proto-Sumerian cuneiform inscriptions were discovered on a building dated to 3400 BCE. More refined and recognizably “Sumerian” cuneiform was developed around 3100 BCE, were discovered on hundreds of clay tablets at town of Jemdet Nasr.

The Akkadian and Elamite didn’t have their own “written” language, so they have adopted the Sumerian cuneiform.

Likewise, the Amorites who migrated to southern Iraq, had also adopted Akkadian as spoken language and Sumerian cuneiform as written language in the late 3rd millennium BCE and early 2nd millennium BCE. The Amorite conquered Babylon in the 19th century BCE, made the city its capital, and adopted not only Sumerian-Akkadian cultures & customs, and their predecessors’ form of government, the Akkadian language they adopted developed into a dialect of Akkadian, known by today’s historians and archaeologists as Old Babylonian, just as the Assyrians have Old Assyrian (another Akkadian dialect).

The point being there were already multiple languages by different people of different cultures, and several written languages PRIOR TO CLADKING’S LANDMARK OF 4000 YEARS AGO.

These 3rd millennium (3000 to 2000 BCE) languages, spoken and written, before 4000 years ago, actually refuted there being only one language being used by everyone as cladking claimed.

And let’s not forget the Indian subcontinent (Indus Valley Civilization, c 3300 - 1300 BCE, the pre-Vedic period) and China were developing their own languages in the mid to late 3rd millennium BCE, which also refuting a single language being spoken and written.

Cladking clearly have no understanding how languages are developed, be they spoken or written.

In the early Bronze Age (3100 - 2000 BCE), there were already multitudes of spoken languages, but only few developed their own systems. Like I said, the Elamites and Akkadians didn’t have their own individual writing systems, so they adopted cuneiform from their contemporary Sumerians.

It like the Celtic languages, the Germanic languages and the Romance languages, they have all adopted the Latin alphabets of the ancient Romans. The Romance languages, eg Italian, Spanish, French, etc, were all developed from the Vulgar Latin, which in turn, was derived from Late Latin, and Late Latin from Classical Latin.

Languages evolved over time and in different regions, but the spoken languages changes or varied far more than the written languages.

Cladking don’t understand this.

Cladking also don’t understand that he cannot possibly know what those 40,000 years old symbols mean, if it isn’t untranslatable, because it isn’t a writing system. If that being the case, then cladking possibly know that the language is metaphysical or containing scientific knowledge.

He foolishly making up claims without evidence to support his ideas. That’s why he so against scientific evidence and against Peer Review, developing his crap conspiracy theories against modern science and and against modern scientific techniques. He produced no experiments of his own.

I’d say let him bury his head in the sand.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Plus, he has been claiming that “observation” and “evidence” are all “INTERPRETATIONS” and not real science, that sciences are those that have “experiments”.


Maybe if I say this just right you won't repeat this;

NONSENSE!!!!!!!!!

I doubt there's anything I say to stop you and your army of strawmen. All science relies on observation. Ancient science was Observation > Logic and modern science is Observation > Experiment. Evidence was irrelevant to ancient science because it wasn't logical and irrelevant to modern science because it's not experiment.

Among his fantasies, is that some Stone Age symbols, 40,000 years old, that appeared around some sites around the world, are some writing of single language, spoken and written.

You bring it up and whine when I respond to it!!!

If cladking don’t know how to read any other languages than English, then how could be know that the 40,000 years old symbols say?

This is pathetic but it's the first logical thing you've said. What makes you think I speak a single language? There are seven billion language and many people in many countries I can communicate with.

This is nothing more than interpretation as to what those symbols mean.

This is true of all symbols. As I've said manty times Ancient Language had no abstractions and no symbols. These are representations, not symbols. As s8uch they are easier to "read'.

He also ignore that the 3rd millennium BCE before his 4000 years ago Tower of Babel, there were already multiple languages spoken in the Near East - Egypt (eg Egyptian), the Levant (eg the Semitic Amorite, spoken in northern Syria, southeast Turkey and northwest Iraq), 2 languages in south and central Iraq (eg Sumerian, and later the Semitic Akkadian) and western Iran (eg Elamite).

As I've explained numerous times pidgin languages began appearing in 3200 BC and this is why they invented writing.

Saying that these symbols contain scientific knowledge, would require people being able to translate and read what those symbols mean.

You can't translate Ancient Language. When you try to read or translate it the meaning is destroyed. You can not parse a mathematical equation and you can not parse Ancient Language just like you can nort parse computer code or a bird's song.

Why can't you get this straight?

Cladking clearly have no understanding how languages are developed, be they spoken or written.

Lol. But those linguists who never noticed Ancient Language breaks Zipf's Law know all about languages!!!!!

This is MY discovery. It's also MY discovery that Ancient Language lacks abstractions, taxonomies or any words for "belief"/ "thought". MINE. All MINE. Linguists MISSED IT. Just like biologists missed that all observed change in all life is sudden and nature would waste no resources creating individuals that are less fit.

Cladking also don’t understand that he cannot possibly know what those 40,000 years old symbols mean, if it isn’t untranslatable, because it isn’t a writing system.

Another of your strawarmy. It is NOT a writing system. It is an elaboration of then current scientific theory. All of them together is an incomplete list and there should be at least a hundred.

That’s why he so against scientific evidence and against Peer Review,

High ranking straw officer. Peer review is not part of science. It is irrelevant to experiment and irrelevant to theory.

developing his crap conspiracy theories against modern science

This is a lie I've corrected repeatedly. I believe in no conspiracies but you seem to believe creationists are all against you and against science. You are continually inventing things about opposing arguments to attack and you invent things about opponents to attack. I don't need to do this because the evidence is on my side.

I've performed many experiments but I don't normally talk about them because they tend to be highly informal or even thought experiments. Creating upside down flies over the course of a couple weeks is hardly a proper "experiment" but you don't understand this because you think experiment is unnecessary when you have evidence. Then you can't even accept incongruous results as "evidence" and still can't understand we all see only what we want to see!!!!!!!!

Look and See Science is not science at all. You can't understand that no amount of expertise has ever enabled anybody to see what exists instead of what they want to believe. A great deal of what you believe is not science at all and the science you believe that is science you don't understand because you do not understand how science works. Without understanding definitions you can't even lay the groundwork to understand metaphysics.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
That explains a lot of the posts. If words don't have definitions then you can just choose any "usage" you desire.
And yet, that exactly what you have been doing.

Instead of recognizing words and terms are being used, words and terms that are already have been defined, you chose to redefine some words and terms to suit “what you desire”.

You are the one playing word games, by changing recognizably defined words to something that only you used, according to your desire. That’s word game you are playing.

You accuse others of semantics and word game, and yet you’re projecting your own claims upon others. You don’t see and you refuse to see that you are the only one accepting the definitions that you have made up, no one else have accepted your definitions.

So it is double standard and hypocrisy when you make these false accusations, when you are doing exactly what you have been accusing others being doing.

And one thing among other things that you are not, you are no expert in language, not of any foreign languages that you cannot speak or read, and you are not an expert on the English language.

You make pretense of knowing what those 40,000 years old symbols mean, but how can you logically do that when you cannot read it?

It just matter of your interpretations and unsubstantiated assumptions that they are language, when they aren’t language at all. You haven’t decipher the symbols, so there are no logic as you claiming that you know what they mean.

Your dishonesty in your claims, are transparent to everyone. Just as you don’t understand how science works, you also don’t understand languages.

If those symbols were written language, then those symbols would form into patterns, like those that are used in a “sentence”, like those used in ancient and modern written languages, but those symbols have no such patterns.

Cuneiform have patterns. Hieroglyphs and the cursive hieratic have patterns. As do the Han characters used in China, Vietnam, Korea and Japan. As do the alphabets (Greek, Latin, Cyrillic) and Abjad scripts (alphabets of Persian, Urdu, Hebrew, Arabic, etc).

You have no idea what you are talking about, and you have created your own narrative to suit “what you desire”, but what you desire are nothing more than wishful fantasies of your own making - which in essence is a delusion.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
The problem is that cladking don’t any other language, except English.

Plus, he has been claiming that “observation” and “evidence” are all “INTERPRETATIONS” and not real science, that sciences are those that have “experiments”.

Except that “experiments” are “observations” and they are “evidence”.

All I see is that cladking is misrepresenting these words, taking the words out-of-context, and redefining them only to suit & justify his wishful fantasies.

Among his fantasies, is that some Stone Age symbols, 40,000 years old, that appeared around some sites around the world, are some writing of single language, spoken and written.

PLUS, this language is untranslatable to any modern languages, and yet he know that these symbols are a metaphysical language, and 40,000 years ago this language was language of true scientists, those Paleolithic people were scientists.

But 4000 years ago, an imaginary Tower of Babel, which he borrowed from Genesis 11, caused confusion among multiple languages and, no after this, including today, don’t know real science.

Before the Tower of Babel, one language was spoken and written, then magically many languages were in used, and these the Homo sapiens became extinct, in its place is his invented “homo omnisciencis”.

All of these claims, cladking’s narrative, are merely fantasies, wishful belief.

If cladking don’t know how to read any other languages than English, then how could be know that the 40,000 years old symbols say? If he can’t translate those symbols, then how could cladking possibly know what they say, and that symbols are language of science?

Saying that these symbols contain scientific knowledge, would require people being able to translate and read what those symbols mean.

But no one were able translate and read them, and he admitted that they are impossible to translate, AND YET, he already know what they mean. To him, these cave-inscribed symbols point to a single metaphysical language, containing true science.

This is nothing more than interpretation as to what those symbols mean. He is not thinking logically, and he know squat as to understanding how any language can be understood without translation.

He basically shot himself in the foot, and not realizing that his claims and interpretations have no logic.

He also ignore that the 3rd millennium BCE before his 4000 years ago Tower of Babel, there were already multiple languages spoken in the Near East - Egypt (eg Egyptian), the Levant (eg the Semitic Amorite, spoken in northern Syria, southeast Turkey and northwest Iraq), 2 languages in south and central Iraq (eg Sumerian, and later the Semitic Akkadian) and western Iran (eg Elamite).

There were also 2 written languages in Egypt, the earliest hieroglyphs discovered 3300 years ago, and the cursive hieratic 3100 years ago.

While the earliest form of proto-Sumerian cuneiform inscriptions were discovered on a building dated to 3400 BCE. More refined and recognizably “Sumerian” cuneiform was developed around 3100 BCE, were discovered on hundreds of clay tablets at town of Jemdet Nasr.

The Akkadian and Elamite didn’t have their own “written” language, so they have adopted the Sumerian cuneiform.

Likewise, the Amorites who migrated to southern Iraq, had also adopted Akkadian as spoken language and Sumerian cuneiform as written language in the late 3rd millennium BCE and early 2nd millennium BCE. The Amorite conquered Babylon in the 19th century BCE, made the city its capital, and adopted not only Sumerian-Akkadian cultures & customs, and their predecessors’ form of government, the Akkadian language they adopted developed into a dialect of Akkadian, known by today’s historians and archaeologists as Old Babylonian, just as the Assyrians have Old Assyrian (another Akkadian dialect).

The point being there were already multiple languages by different people of different cultures, and several written languages PRIOR TO CLADKING’S LANDMARK OF 4000 YEARS AGO.

These 3rd millennium (3000 to 2000 BCE) languages, spoken and written, before 4000 years ago, actually refuted there being only one language being used by everyone as cladking claimed.

And let’s not forget the Indian subcontinent (Indus Valley Civilization, c 3300 - 1300 BCE, the pre-Vedic period) and China were developing their own languages in the mid to late 3rd millennium BCE, which also refuting a single language being spoken and written.

Cladking clearly have no understanding how languages are developed, be they spoken or written.

In the early Bronze Age (3100 - 2000 BCE), there were already multitudes of spoken languages, but only few developed their own systems. Like I said, the Elamites and Akkadians didn’t have their own individual writing systems, so they adopted cuneiform from their contemporary Sumerians.

It like the Celtic languages, the Germanic languages and the Romance languages, they have all adopted the Latin alphabets of the ancient Romans. The Romance languages, eg Italian, Spanish, French, etc, were all developed from the Vulgar Latin, which in turn, was derived from Late Latin, and Late Latin from Classical Latin.

Languages evolved over time and in different regions, but the spoken languages changes or varied far more than the written languages.

Cladking don’t understand this.

Cladking also don’t understand that he cannot possibly know what those 40,000 years old symbols mean, if it isn’t untranslatable, because it isn’t a writing system. If that being the case, then cladking possibly know that the language is metaphysical or containing scientific knowledge.

He foolishly making up claims without evidence to support his ideas. That’s why he so against scientific evidence and against Peer Review, developing his crap conspiracy theories against modern science and and against modern scientific techniques. He produced no experiments of his own.

I’d say let him bury his head in the sand.
I see it like legend or mythology building. Some fact forms the core of a narrative with no real basis that amounts to so much fan fiction.

Some abstract figures were found on the walls of some caves. Here's what I believe they mean without any evidence to believe it so. And take my belief as fact, because I want to be the expert that defines this reality.

Understanding that, I didn't see any reason for continuing the conversation.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Maybe if I say this just right you won't repeat this;

NONSENSE!!!!!!!!!

I doubt there's anything I say to stop you and your army of strawmen. All science relies on observation. Ancient science was Observation > Logic and modern science is Observation > Experiment. Evidence was irrelevant to ancient science because it wasn't logical and irrelevant to modern science because it's not experiment.



You bring it up and whine when I respond to it!!!



This is pathetic but it's the first logical thing you've said. What makes you think I speak a single language? There are seven billion language and many people in many countries I can communicate with.



This is true of all symbols. As I've said manty times Ancient Language had no abstractions and no symbols. These are representations, not symbols. As s8uch they are easier to "read'.



As I've explained numerous times pidgin languages began appearing in 3200 BC and this is why they invented writing.



You can't translate Ancient Language. When you try to read or translate it the meaning is destroyed. You can not parse a mathematical equation and you can not parse Ancient Language just like you can nort parse computer code or a bird's song.

Why can't you get this straight?



Lol. But those linguists who never noticed Ancient Language breaks Zipf's Law know all about languages!!!!!

This is MY discovery. It's also MY discovery that Ancient Language lacks abstractions, taxonomies or any words for "belief"/ "thought". MINE. All MINE. Linguists MISSED IT. Just like biologists missed that all observed change in all life is sudden and nature would waste no resources creating individuals that are less fit.



Another of your strawarmy. It is NOT a writing system. It is an elaboration of then current scientific theory. All of them together is an incomplete list and there should be at least a hundred.



High ranking straw officer. Peer review is not part of science. It is irrelevant to experiment and irrelevant to theory.



This is a lie I've corrected repeatedly. I believe in no conspiracies but you seem to believe creationists are all against you and against science. You are continually inventing things about opposing arguments to attack and you invent things about opponents to attack. I don't need to do this because the evidence is on my side.

I've performed many experiments but I don't normally talk about them because they tend to be highly informal or even thought experiments. Creating upside down flies over the course of a couple weeks is hardly a proper "experiment" but you don't understand this because you think experiment is unnecessary when you have evidence. Then you can't even accept incongruous results as "evidence" and still can't understand we all see only what we want to see!!!!!!!!

Look and See Science is not science at all. You can't understand that no amount of expertise has ever enabled anybody to see what exists instead of what they want to believe. A great deal of what you believe is not science at all and the science you believe that is science you don't understand because you do not understand how science works. Without understanding definitions you can't even lay the groundwork to understand metaphysics.

Blah, blah, blah.

That all I see in your nonsensical deluded fantasies in those symbols that no one can read, including yourself, and yet you know what they mean, without evidence and without logic to support these absurd claims of yours.

You have shown that you don’t understand basic biology or basic astronomy. And you have shown that you don’t understand writing systems.

You just make everything up. Those things you make up, are nothing more than illogical assumptions, in another word, they are just your personal opinions and personal belief...and since no one except YOU accepting these assumptions and opinions of yours, they are considered delusional.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
The problem is that cladking don’t any other language, except English.

Plus, he has been claiming that “observation” and “evidence” are all “INTERPRETATIONS” and not real science, that sciences are those that have “experiments”.

Except that “experiments” are “observations” and they are “evidence”.

All I see is that cladking is misrepresenting these words, taking the words out-of-context, and redefining them only to suit & justify his wishful fantasies.

Among his fantasies, is that some Stone Age symbols, 40,000 years old, that appeared around some sites around the world, are some writing of single language, spoken and written.

PLUS, this language is untranslatable to any modern languages, and yet he know that these symbols are a metaphysical language, and 40,000 years ago this language was language of true scientists, those Paleolithic people were scientists.

But 4000 years ago, an imaginary Tower of Babel, which he borrowed from Genesis 11, caused confusion among multiple languages and, no after this, including today, don’t know real science.

Before the Tower of Babel, one language was spoken and written, then magically many languages were in used, and these the Homo sapiens became extinct, in its place is his invented “homo omnisciencis”.

All of these claims, cladking’s narrative, are merely fantasies, wishful belief.

If cladking don’t know how to read any other languages than English, then how could be know that the 40,000 years old symbols say? If he can’t translate those symbols, then how could cladking possibly know what they say, and that symbols are language of science?

Saying that these symbols contain scientific knowledge, would require people being able to translate and read what those symbols mean.

But no one were able translate and read them, and he admitted that they are impossible to translate, AND YET, he already know what they mean. To him, these cave-inscribed symbols point to a single metaphysical language, containing true science.

This is nothing more than interpretation as to what those symbols mean. He is not thinking logically, and he know squat as to understanding how any language can be understood without translation.

He basically shot himself in the foot, and not realizing that his claims and interpretations have no logic.

He also ignore that the 3rd millennium BCE before his 4000 years ago Tower of Babel, there were already multiple languages spoken in the Near East - Egypt (eg Egyptian), the Levant (eg the Semitic Amorite, spoken in northern Syria, southeast Turkey and northwest Iraq), 2 languages in south and central Iraq (eg Sumerian, and later the Semitic Akkadian) and western Iran (eg Elamite).

There were also 2 written languages in Egypt, the earliest hieroglyphs discovered 3300 years ago, and the cursive hieratic 3100 years ago.

While the earliest form of proto-Sumerian cuneiform inscriptions were discovered on a building dated to 3400 BCE. More refined and recognizably “Sumerian” cuneiform was developed around 3100 BCE, were discovered on hundreds of clay tablets at town of Jemdet Nasr.

The Akkadian and Elamite didn’t have their own “written” language, so they have adopted the Sumerian cuneiform.

Likewise, the Amorites who migrated to southern Iraq, had also adopted Akkadian as spoken language and Sumerian cuneiform as written language in the late 3rd millennium BCE and early 2nd millennium BCE. The Amorite conquered Babylon in the 19th century BCE, made the city its capital, and adopted not only Sumerian-Akkadian cultures & customs, and their predecessors’ form of government, the Akkadian language they adopted developed into a dialect of Akkadian, known by today’s historians and archaeologists as Old Babylonian, just as the Assyrians have Old Assyrian (another Akkadian dialect).

The point being there were already multiple languages by different people of different cultures, and several written languages PRIOR TO CLADKING’S LANDMARK OF 4000 YEARS AGO.

These 3rd millennium (3000 to 2000 BCE) languages, spoken and written, before 4000 years ago, actually refuted there being only one language being used by everyone as cladking claimed.

And let’s not forget the Indian subcontinent (Indus Valley Civilization, c 3300 - 1300 BCE, the pre-Vedic period) and China were developing their own languages in the mid to late 3rd millennium BCE, which also refuting a single language being spoken and written.

Cladking clearly have no understanding how languages are developed, be they spoken or written.

In the early Bronze Age (3100 - 2000 BCE), there were already multitudes of spoken languages, but only few developed their own systems. Like I said, the Elamites and Akkadians didn’t have their own individual writing systems, so they adopted cuneiform from their contemporary Sumerians.

It like the Celtic languages, the Germanic languages and the Romance languages, they have all adopted the Latin alphabets of the ancient Romans. The Romance languages, eg Italian, Spanish, French, etc, were all developed from the Vulgar Latin, which in turn, was derived from Late Latin, and Late Latin from Classical Latin.

Languages evolved over time and in different regions, but the spoken languages changes or varied far more than the written languages.

Cladking don’t understand this.

Cladking also don’t understand that he cannot possibly know what those 40,000 years old symbols mean, if it isn’t untranslatable, because it isn’t a writing system. If that being the case, then cladking possibly know that the language is metaphysical or containing scientific knowledge.

He foolishly making up claims without evidence to support his ideas. That’s why he so against scientific evidence and against Peer Review, developing his crap conspiracy theories against modern science and and against modern scientific techniques. He produced no experiments of his own.

I’d say let him bury his head in the sand.
I have noticed a pattern regarding peer review. The less it is understood and the more baseless the claims offered and rejected by peer review the more peer review is condemned. It is exactly because those claims are baseless that they are rejected and don't pass review. I feel fairly confident on the observed patterns that it is a defense mechanism for thate dissonance through the mechanism of a narrative to rationalize the rejection of what amounts to revealed truth. The narrative seems to serve the person rejecting peer review by providing a self-convincing reason for rejection as a kind of victimization as part of a conspiracy.

It is a rough idea, but it seems to fit many baseless claims unleashed as revealed truth regarding medicine, science, history, etc.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm not an expert in the field, but I think I may have just re-invented or re-described Dunning/Kruger.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
You are the one playing word games, by changing recognizably defined words to something that only you used, according to your desire.

You were doing so well and now you're right back to "metaphysics" meaning "magic".

It just matter of your interpretations and unsubstantiated assumptions that they are language, when they aren’t language at all.

The exact same straw man I just disabused you of?
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Those things you make up, are nothing more than illogical assumptions, in another word, they are just your personal opinions and personal belief.

No. Those things I make up are observations like all change in life is sudden. Then I make up explanations for why this is and most people can't see it.

That all I see in your nonsensical deluded fantasies in those symbols that no one can read, including yourself, and yet you know what they mean, without evidence and without logic to support these absurd claims of yours.

You have shown that you don’t understand basic biology or basic astronomy. And you have shown that you don’t understand writing systems.

The exact same "symbols" appear in caves all over the world. How do you propose this could come about without the symbols being innate to those who drew them or part of a single language? I simply propose they are both.

But they aren't really symbols at all because they are representative and they are merely part of the language. If we could "translate" them they would be "gods" like Thor, Osiris, or Pan. But to the people 40,000 years ago there were no "gods". What we mistake as "gods" were actually "theory"; specific theory. They were part of entire pantheons of "gods" which is aggregate described all of reality in HUMAN terms. Did I ever mention we don't think like homo sapiens? If we did think like them we wouldn't believe in Evolution or that experts can perform Look and See Science. If one individual had all the expertise in the world that individual still couldn't perform Look and See Science. It's a mirage and Darwin was just another crackpot. No amount of evidence can create theory because it is founded in experiment.

You can ignore this but it remains how science works.
 
Top