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Darwin's Illusion

LIIA

Well-Known Member
No.
LUCA is just the common ancestor of all living things today.
That doesn't mean that that population/species was "first life".

LUCA could be a species that lived 2 billion years ago among many other species of which the branches died out while life itself is at least 3.8 billion years old.

It's like mitochondrial eve. All women alive today are descendants of that individual. But mitochondrial eve was NOT the "first woman", nor was she the only woman alive at that time.


I'm so sorry if you can't comprehend this simple thing.

No, LUCA’s age is assumed to be around 4 billion years ago, but it’s really irrelevant to my point. Everything you mentioned is merely unevidenced meaningless speculation. I’m not interested in arguing about irrelevant details of a fairytale, my concern is the underlying logic/concept.

Again, the ToE is not concerned about explaining the first life, only the diversity of life but without life, there is no evolution; Abiogenesis is supposed to explain the emergence of first life (first self-sustaining complex living system allegedly capable of Darwinian evolution) which is absolutely necessary before any evolutionary process through mutation/selection would be possible.

The name that is given to the alleged first life is neither my concern nor I am interested in arguing about irrelevant details. The point is, Abiogenesis must explain the first life, which is a necessary prerequisite before evolution. If the first life is not explained or not possible, no evolution is possible.

So?

Without mass / matter there is no gravity.
But we don't need to know the origin of mass or matter to study gravity.

Gravity is a property of space-time, which comes into action when matter interacts with it. According to the General Theory Of Relativity, Gravity is the warping of space-time when it interacts with a dense mass. After interaction of matter and space-time the space-time curvature gives birth to the Gravity.

Gravity as a phenomenon can be explained by the interaction of both space-time and matter. It’s a different context.

The point is that many are under the false impression that the ToE explains life and they fail to understand that without life to begin with, there is no possible evolution. The ToE merely shifts the problem of life to the first life and leaves it to Abiogenesis to provide an explanation, but it never did. The fact remains that the problem of life was never explained. neither by the ToE nor by Abiogenesis.

I feel an argument from complexity (aka argument from ignorance / awe) coming up.
Is that where this is going?

Not really. The concern as explained in # 2575 is the oversimplification/wishful thinking of many as they view the problem of Abiogenesis while failing to understand its multiple levels of escalated complexity. None of the numerous attempts led to any remotely possible self-sustainable chemistries and pathways that are capable of chemical evolution. See # 1850 & #2484.

Evolution happened, happens and will continue to happen regardless of current hypothesis of abiogenesis being correct or not.

The theory of evolution doesn't fall or stand with abiogenesis hypothesis being accurate or false.

Not true, it's always an adaptation process through directed mutation, it's never a random evolutionary process.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Also I am rather amazed at @LIIA 's tacit acceptance of the fact of evolution.. This extremely deep detour has nothing to do with the topic. It is such an incredible shifting of the goalposts that he has not only conceded evolution, he has also conceded abiogenesis.

All that the theory of evolution does, if a God exists, is to tell us how God did it. Evolution itself does not refute God. It only refutes ,,mistaken versions of God.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
No, LUCA’s age is assumed to be around 4 billion years ago, but it’s really irrelevant to my point. Everything you mentioned is merely unevidenced meaningless speculation. I’m not interested in arguing about irrelevant details of a fairytale, my concern is the underlying logic/concept.

Again, the ToE is not concerned about explaining the first life, only the diversity of life but without life, there is no evolution; Abiogenesis is supposed to explain the emergence of first life (first self-sustaining complex living system allegedly capable of Darwinian evolution) which is absolutely necessary before any evolutionary process through mutation/selection would be possible.

The name that is given to the alleged first life is neither my concern nor I am interested in arguing about irrelevant details. The point is, Abiogenesis must explain the first life, which is a necessary prerequisite before evolution. If the first life is not explained or not possible, no evolution is possible.

Nope, No matter how many times your repeat that error it will still be wrong. Evolution does not depend upon abiogenesis. There could be several possible sources of first life. The theory of evolution explains what happens afterword.

If someone takes a trip from New York to L.A. do we have to know if he was in Boston or D.C. before he began that trip? Why would we need to know that? Why do we need to know the source of first lfie?


Gravity is a property of space-time, which comes into action when matter interacts with it. According to the General Theory Of Relativity, Gravity is the warping of space-time when it interacts with a dense mass. After interaction of matter and space-time the space-time curvature gives birth to the Gravity.

Gravity as a phenomenon can be explained by the interaction of both space-time and matter. It’s a different context.

The point is that many are under the false impression that the ToE explains life and they fail to understand that without life to begin with, there is no possible evolution. The ToE merely shifts the problem of life to the first life and leaves it to Abiogenesis to provide an explanation, but it never did. The fact remains that the problem of life was never explained. neither by the ToE nor by Abiogenesis.

Abiogenesis is a much harder problem than evolution. In the sciences one solves the problems that one can solve first. They do not have to wait for everything to be solved. Evolution does not depend upon natural abiogenesis. Once again, a God could have magically poofed the first life into existence as you believe. Evolution is what occurred after first life.

Not really. The concern as explained in # 2575 is the oversimplification/wishful thinking of many as they view the problem of Abiogenesis while failing to understand its multiple levels of escalated complexity. None of the numerous attempts led to any remotely possible self-sustainable chemistries and pathways that are capable of chemical evolution. See # 1850 & #2484.
Sorry, handwaving and referral back to old lost arguments of yours does not help.

Not true, it's always an adaptation process through directed mutation, it's never a random evolutionary process.

What!? Directed mutation? Not even the sources of yours that you do not understand proposed that. And you are using a strawman argument again. Just because random mutations are part of evolution that does not mean that it is a random process. The two main components of evolution are variation (which is going to be rather random) and natural selection (which is not random). When one combines a random process with a non-random one the results will not be random.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
No, therefore evolution is false.
You’re making an illogical leap from one subject to another. It’s a false dichotomy. it doesn’t work this way.
I looked back at your old arguments and saw this reaction. You did not like it when another poster used your "logic". The faulty logic was the same. You could see his failure but not your own. You in effect refuted yourself.
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
It is not. The "designs" you see in Nature are the results of the interplay of normal, unintentional laws of physics. Complexity and function does not equal intentional design.

You acknowledged that we see design in nature. Design is essentially a functional arrangement of entities for a purpose.

Regardless of any explanation of why the observed design exist, it’s irrelevant to the fact that we do see design in nature. Design/purpose is an evidenced fact. Attempts of explanations are merely assumptions/claims.

The complexity of structure that successfully achieves a function always equals intentional design even If the cause is not known or understood. The lack of knowledge of the cause is never a justification to deny the evidenced characteristics of design/purpose in nature.

IOW, you can always recognize a design when you see it. Your knowledge of the designer or the lack thereof is irrelevant. It doesn’t change this fact. Its illogical to claim that a design is not designed simply because we don’t have knowledge of the design process or who is the designer. The design itself is the evidence for the designer.

True, either nothing would emerge, or a different universe would emerge, perhaps with lifeforms marveling at how fine tuned their universe is.

It’s an empty claim, the evidence is that neither the formation of the universe would be possible nor there is any other physical life system possible other than the carbon-based life.

The values and constants may be fine, but there's no evidence they're tuned. This simply puts the cart before the horse.

Not true, the evidence is that the constants are extremely fine-tuned.

The laws and constants are what they are, and they produce the universe they produce. There is no need to insert unevidenced and unneeded variables.

This is exactly what you are doing!! You insert unevidenced variables and assume it would produce unevidenced universe and unevidenced life form. It’s an empty claim.

Yes, the statistical chances of our world being as it is is very small, but the chance of any other configurations are equally small.
The chance of drawing a royal flush are very small, but exactly the same as any, same suit five card configuration

It’s a flawed logic in many ways.

First, you make an empty claim that any set of constants/variables would give rise the formation of a universe and some life form without any evidence.

Second, “statistical chances” is necessarily the function of the interaction of existing entities that create the required perquisites of chance. If nothing exists (no matter, no radiation, no physical laws, no space, no time) then there is no statistical chance of any kind.

Statistical chance of our world being as is would be only possible if we accept the unevidenced/ unfalsifiable assumption of Multiverse.

But, in the case of advantageous mutations, mutations are a known and common phenomenon. The rest is just natural selection.

Mutations are a known and common phenomenon but there is absolutely no evidence that advantageous mutations emerge accidentally among endless other non- advantageous random mutations. Advantageous mutations emerge as a result of directed mutations.

Non-functional changes gets shuffled back into the deck for the next draw. Function accumulates.

Not true, there is no evidence for the alleged endless non- advantageous random mutations that is constantly getting eliminated by selection.

Complexity ≠ God or intentional design.

The criteria that identify design/intention are not dependent on our knowledge of the causes. It’s simply the successful/efficient arrangement of entities to achieve a purpose. The design is the evidence of the designer.

And viruses? -- Not organisms, and not so complex.

A virus is not considered alive, you may say it’s not as complex as a single-celled organism but yet a virion is still a very complex structure.

Define "intelligence." Are you claiming intention?

Low entropy as previously explained.

Nor is it evidence for intention or purpose. Without actual evidence of purpose, we logically withhold belief, pending further evidence. If there is intention, it's thus far unevidenced

It’s a flawed logic; purpose/intension can be seen and recognized independent from our knowledge of the designer. The design itself is the evidence of the designer. You cannot see a design and claim that you don’t have evidence of the designer. You cannot claim that the design is not designed simply because you don’t have the knowledge/understanding of the designer or the design process.

You're the one making positive -- and unevidenced -- claims. The burden's on you.
Perfection and design? How are you measuring perfection in the universe? It doesn't seem so stable, plus, it's winding down; entropy increases. As for biological perfection.... you must be joking.

Again, totally false, in your post #2593, you said,” If intentional, the operator is a very incompetent engineer, judging by how poorly designed and haphazard his creations are.”, you made a claim, demonstrate it and I’ll respond.

As I said before, perfection of a system is the level of adequacy/success of a system in achieving a goal. The extremely fine-tuned universe is perfection. The fact that every living organism is equipped with all vital systems that ensure its success in its environment is perfection.

Almost all scientists fail to see it as well. The closer you look, the more insubstantial this special pleading becomes.

You’re making a fallacious argumentum ad populum.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Nonsense, what are my new goal posts? Identify it.
LOL! I don't have to identify some illogical goal of yours to tell you that you moved the goalposts.

The discussion was about evolution. You tried to change it to totally different topics. That is an admission of loss by you.
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
Apples and oranges. Watchmaker fallacy. Personal incredulity.

Not true, the point is availability of components/building blocks is never a justification of the emergence of a complex functional structure. Unless the right block is intentionally placed at the right spot every step of the way, no functional structure would ever emerge. If random blocks kept thrown at random spots, the outcome would be nothing but a random mess. With respect to life, neither the building blocks are available in nature nor there is any evidence of random change process taking place. All evidence points to directed mutation not random mutation.

Not currently completely understood, but becoming increasingly understood every day.

No, the article below clearly said, “The review will emphasize that THERE ARE—AND WILL CONTINUE TO BE—MANY MORE QUESTIONS THAN ANSWERS from the synthetic, mechanistic, and analytical perspectives.”

Chemistry of Abiotic Nucleotide Synthesis | Chemical Reviews (acs.org)

The lack of knowledge/understanding of the cause is not a justification for a false adoption of an unevidenced claim.

Abiogenesis remains an unevidenced claim that didn’t explain the first life, without the first life, no evolution is possible.

upload_2022-11-15_22-43-3.png



Are you suggesting that the appearance of life was without mechanism; magic?

Science accepts that the entire universe emerged from nothing, how would that happen? It's not magic, simply it's an unknown cause that cannot be understood, it's exactly the same case for life. The cause cannot be seen or understood. The effect itself is always the evidence for the cause.

??? -- How so?

You may observe and experiment on physical entities to infer the cause of the observed phenomenon, but you can never experiment on the cause itself (i.e., natural forces) to know its intrinsic nature or what gives it its controlling power over matter. Our domain of search/experimentation is always within the realm of effects, never the causes. Effects can be experimented on; the causes can be only inferred.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Not true, the point is availability of components/building blocks is never a justification of the emergence of a complex functional structure. Unless the right block is intentionally placed at the right spot every step of the way, no functional structure would ever emerge. If random blocks kept thrown at random spots, the outcome would be nothing but a random mess. With respect to life, neither the building blocks are available in nature nor there is any evidence of random change process taking place. All evidence points to directed mutation not random mutation.



No, the article below clearly said, “The review will emphasize that THERE ARE—AND WILL CONTINUE TO BE—MANY MORE QUESTIONS THAN ANSWERS from the synthetic, mechanistic, and analytical perspectives.”

Chemistry of Abiotic Nucleotide Synthesis | Chemical Reviews (acs.org)

The lack of knowledge/understanding of the cause is not a justification for a false adoption of an unevidenced claim.

Abiogenesis remains an unevidenced claim that didn’t explain the first life, without the first life, no evolution is possible.

View attachment 68546




Science accepts that the entire universe emerged from nothing, how would that happen? It's not magic, simply it's an unknown cause that cannot be understood, it's exactly the same case for life. The cause cannot be seen or understood. The effect itself is always the evidence for the cause.



You may observe and experiment on physical entities to infer the cause of the observed phenomenon, but you can never experiment on the cause itself (i.e., natural forces) to know its intrinsic nature or what gives it its controlling power over matter. Our domain of search/experimentation is always within the realm of effects, never the causes. Effects can be experimented on; the causes can be only inferred.
Why are you still fixated on that article that you did not understand? Quote mining does not help you.

Tell us what do you think that favorite line means? I am betting that you get the answer wrong.
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
LOL! I don't have to identify some illogical goal of yours to tell you that you moved the goalposts.

The discussion was about evolution. You tried to change it to totally different topics. That is an admission of loss by you.

seriously, you always fail to surprise me.

you claimed that I moved the goalposts, go ahead, identify the new goals. or just stop your nonsense.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
seriously, you always fail to surprise me.

you claimed that I moved the goalposts, go ahead, identify the new goals. or just stop your nonsense.
We were discussing evolution. You brought up abiogenesis. Evolution does not rely on natural abiogenesis. Then you tried to bring up the beginning of the universe. Evolution does not rely on the cause of that either.

Not only did you acknowledge that evolution was right by bringing up abiogenesis. You acknowledged abiogenesis was right by bringing up the start of the universe.
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
How easily believers in Evolution just ignore consciousness and its effects on survival, precreation,

Never does the complexity of nature factor into their conclusions.

True, they imagine that the absolute reality must be limited to their relative understanding/perception of it.

We previously discussed consciousness/intelligence at a microbial level and even at atomic and molecular level (#226)

Darwin's Illusion | Page 12 | Religious Forums

but in fact, evidence in recent years also confirmed plant consciousness/intelligence. the studies concluded that plants have feelings and a high level of intelligence. See the link below.

Plant-Consciousness---The-Fascinating-Evidence-Showing-Plants-Have-Human-Level-Intelligence--Feelings--Pain-and-More.pdf (usp.br)
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
We were discussing evolution. You brought up abiogenesis. Evolution does not rely on natural abiogenesis. Then you tried to bring up the beginning of the universe. Evolution does not rely on the cause of that either.

Not only did you acknowledge that evolution was right by bringing up abiogenesis. You acknowledged abiogenesis was right by bringing up the start of the universe.

Didn’t we discuss scientific racism, dogmatic control, the Big Bang, religious concepts, logical reasoning, relative perception of reality, consciousness, etc.? a discussion of a thread can very well branch to other related topics. Why is that a problem to you? It happens all the time on this forum. A topic is closed, another continues, but it’s all related.
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
And that "first cause" being what, exactly?

And if the “cause” is not known, then how do you possibly even know there is a “cause” in the first place?

Or is this “cause” some supernatural entities?

God? Creator? Designer? Or whatever title or name you want to give this imaginary and nonexistent entity.

And there are numbers of issues with your claims above.

First of all.

Scientific Method don’t collapse because it ignore all supernatural causes, because there are never any evidence the existence of the supernatural.

Scientific Method can only be applied to natural phenomena and to natural events, not supernatural ones, because the supernatural isn’t testable, hence not falsifiable.

So the Scientific Method don’t collapse, what you claimed about causality - there being the “first cause”, if you re suggesting supernatural being as he first cause, then it is actually your argument, concept or claim that falls apart.

The fault lies with your first cause argument. If there are no physical evidence of this first argument, then it is your own argument that’s baseless and meaningless speculation.

The whole purpose of Scientific Method is being able to “test” a “testable“ model, whether that model be a hypothesis, theory, theoretical framework or logical statement.

It is a concept that’s both untestable and untested that are considered to be pseudoscience concept, speculation.

But please, define or explain what this “first cause” is?

In my post #2645, I said, “without causality as a fundamental principle, the entire scientific method collapses”. The scientific method always seeks explanations/causes for observed phenomena. In principle, if causes were not necessary, science itself would be unnecessary. The reasoning logic itself would collapse. Do you disagree? If you do, then I would have no further comments. We cannot argue about the basics.

The Big Bang is a contingent being with a beginning (didn’t always exist). As a contingent being, its instantiation in reality is dependent on a cause. Beyond the BB, there is no matter, no radiation, no physical laws, no space, no time, IOW, nothing physical of any kind. Hence the necessary cause is not physical and necessarily of a nature that cannot be understood. i.e., supernatural.

But again, this is not a foreign concept to naturalism. In general, we never test the causes. We only test the effects. The effects itself is the evidence of the causes. We test the effects in the observable realm and infer the causes that may not be seen/understood. You may observe the behavior of galaxies and infer the dark energy as a cause, but you may never observe dark energy or experiment on it. Its effects are the only evidence; the intrinsic nature of causes is a threshold that science cannot cross.

The first cause is the only necessary being, without the necessary being, no contingent being is possible. All contingent entities of all kinds must be rooted in the absolute/ necessary being.
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
If it were possible to actually go back and see where one species becomes another you could see that it didn't occur over millions of years as you believe. In virtually every case it happened suddenly.

Concerns with the morphological discontinuity/sudden jumps in the fossil record were already identified by Ernst Walter Mayr (Mayr was one of the 20th century’s leading evolutionary biologists who was called “the Darwin of the 20th century”). Then the prominent paleontologists Eldredge and Gould confirmed the stasis in the fossil record (The state of no morphological change for most of the geological history) followed by sudden jumps, which gave rise to their punctuated equilibrium theory that proposes rapid events of cladogenesis. Eldredge and Gould confirmed that the gradualism attributed to Charles Darwin is virtually nonexistent in the fossil record, and that stasis dominates the history of most fossil species. Mayr later complimented Eldredge and Gould's work and stated that stasis had been "unexpected by most evolutionary biologists"
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Didn’t we discuss scientific racism, dogmatic control, the Big Bang, religious concepts, logical reasoning, relative perception of reality, consciousness, etc.? a discussion of a thread can very well branch to other related topics. Why is that a problem to you? It happens all the time on this forum. A topic is closed, another continues, but it’s all related.
You mean a problem for yiu.

And yes, you got just about every topic as wrong as could be.

Why are you so opposed to the fact that life is a product of evolution?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Concerns with the morphological discontinuity/sudden jumps in the fossil record were already identified by Ernst Walter Mayr (Mayr was one of the 20th century’s leading evolutionary biologists who was called “the Darwin of the 20th century”). Then the prominent paleontologists Eldredge and Gould confirmed the stasis in the fossil record (The state of no morphological change for most of the geological history) followed by sudden jumps, which gave rise to their punctuated equilibrium theory that proposes rapid events of cladogenesis. Eldredge and Gould confirmed that the gradualism attributed to Charles Darwin is virtually nonexistent in the fossil record, and that stasis dominates the history of most fossil species. Mayr later complimented Eldredge and Gould's work and stated that stasis had been "unexpected by most evolutionary biologists"
Nope. They knew that evolution was a fact too. All you have are quote mines when you.use those people.
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
There could be several possible sources of first life

Identify it.

The theory of evolution explains what happens afterword.

If a necessary prerequisite is not possible, the process is not possible. The premise is wrong, and the explanation is false. There is no randomness in nature. All evidence points to order/control.

If someone takes a trip from New York to L.A. do we have to know if he was in Boston or D.C. before he began that trip? Why would we need to know that? Why do we need to know the source of first lfie?

You need "someone" to begin with, if "someone" doesn’t exist, then no one would be traveling.

Abiogenesis is a much harder problem than evolution. In the sciences one solves the problems that one can solve first. They do not have to wait for everything to be solved. Evolution does not depend upon natural abiogenesis. Once again, a God could have magically poofed the first life into existence as you believe. Evolution is what occurred after first life.

The premise is either randomness or purpose. If God created the first life, then God created all life.

What!? Directed mutation? Not even the sources of yours that you do not understand proposed that.

Really?

See # See # 1245
Darwin's Illusion | Page 63 | Religious Forums

And #1864
Darwin's Illusion | Page 94 | Religious Forums
 
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