Darwin's Illusion

[LIIA]

Apendix is a relic that can explode and kill you. Many people have it removed as an obsolete thing which only causes problems.

Wisdom teeth can hurt like hell. You don't need them and many people's mouths are too small to house them. These people have them removed as an obsolete thing which only cause problems.

The laryngeal nerve goes down, loops around the aorta and goes back up - just to end up an inch or two of where it started. Talk about a waste of resources...

Again, logically, our reference/evidence should be the overwhelming rule not perceived exceptions, which could very well be false. Unknown function ≠ no function, as we know more, we get to know that these systems that were once assumed to be useless or bad designs are essentially functional components of perfect designs.

You didn’t learn your lesson and still parroting ignorant claims of Dawkins and others without much understanding.

We previously discussed the wisdom teeth (see #2876). I’ll discuss the new ignorant claims about the “appendix” and “laryngeal nerve" separately in the following posts.

 

[LIIA]

Apendix is a relic that can explode and kill you. Many people have it removed as an obsolete thing which only causes problems.

The function of the appendix was not previously known and has been a debated topic but today it is accepted that the appendix has an immunoprotective function, acts as a lymphoid organ, and a storage vessel for "good" colonic bacteria.

Here are some facts that shed light on the importance/function of the appendix:

a) The appendix plays the essential role of providing biological redundancy to ensures robustness of living organisms.

b) In humans, it is highly conserved, and malformations are extremely rare.

c) The appendix is a concentrate of lymphoid tissue resembling Peyer's patches and is the primary site for immunoglobulin A production which is crucial to regulate the density and quality of the intestinal flora.

d) Given its shape and position, the Appendix could be a unique niche for commensal bacteria in the body. It is extremely rich in biofilms that continuously shed bacteria into the intestinal lumen.

f) The Appendix contains a microbiota as diverse as that found in the colon and could replenish the large intestine with healthy flora after a diarrhea episode.

g) In conditions of modern medicine hygiene, and people live healthy without their appendix. However, several reports suggest that the effects of appendectomy could be subtler and associated with the development of inflammatory conditions such as inflammatory bowel disease (IBD), heart disease but also in less expected disorders such as Parkinson's disease.

h) Lack of an Appendix also predicts a worsen outcome for recurrent Clostridium difficile infection, which is the first nosocomial infection in hospitals.

j) The Appendix might be redundant in its immunological function but unique as a reservoir of microbiota.

The immunological functions of the Appendix: An example of redundancy? - PubMed (nih.gov)

k) The immune system cells located in the appendix have the function of protecting the good bacteria. The appendix protects us from bad germs by creating and protecting good germs.

The Appendix Protects Us From Germs And Protects Good Bacteria (medicalnewstoday.com)

l) The appendix Could Save our Life and help us recover from serious infections

Your Appendix Could Save Your Life - Scientific American

 

[LIIA]

The laryngeal nerve goes down, loops around the aorta and goes back up - just to end up an inch or two of where it started. Talk about a waste of resources...

Dawkins and others make the ignorant claim that the recurrent laryngeal nerve (RLN) has no function when it comes from the brain except only to reach the larynx. With this deception they object to how it descends to wrap first around the aorta in the chest at the heart and then returns to the larynx in mammals while it could have been directly connected to the larynx at the top of the neck and ended up. hence, they say that it is an (obvious) error in the design - as they claim - because its descent into the heart and then its return to the larynx is seven times longer than direct access to the larynx.

The response to that deception and negligence is to clarify the following:

1) The recurrent laryngeal nerve is a branch of the vagus nerve (which is the longest nerve descending down from the brain and oversees a vast array of crucial internal organ functions, including control of immune response, digestion, heart rate and respiratory rate, as well as vasomotor activity, and certain reflex actions, such as coughing, sneezing, swallowing, and vomiting). Meaning, the function of the nerve is not only the isolated function of the branch “RLN” that connects to the larynx but rather many coordinated functions that involves multiple organs such as the heart, esophagus and trachea, etc. before it reaches the larynx.

2) There is already a nerve that reaches directly from the brain to the larynx other than this laryngeal nerve, it is the superior laryngeal nerve (SLN) – and thus the claim is destroyed in the first place.

3) The route of the recurrent laryngeal nerve branch has absolutely no negative impact on function but rather the specific route of the overall vagus nerve including the RLN branch allows for perfect achievement of multiple coordinated tasks involving many internal organs. In fact, the opposite, which is the shortcut of the nerve to the larynx does exist and considered as birth defect known as: “Non-Recurrent Laryngeal Nerve”. It’s a rare anatomical anomaly that affects about 0.3 to 1 percent of people and causes health problems and increases the risk of damage to the nerve during surgery.

Anatomic variations of the non-recurrent inferior laryngeal nerve | BMJ Case Reports

4) Another benefit has been discovered in the connection and wrapping of this laryngeal nerve with the aorta at the heart, during the fetal development. The left recurrent laryngeal nerve plays a pivotal role in the development of the ductus arteriosus, which is a unique muscular artery that plays an essential role during the development of the human embryo to connect the pulmonary and aorta artery in the fetus. it is responsible for the diversion of oxygenated blood coming from the umbilical cord after oxygenating it in the placenta, so it takes it away from the lung to enter the aorta directly. This is because embryos do not breathe through the lungs but through the placenta through the oxygen passing from the mother's blood.

See the quote below from Gray’s Anatomy, 39th edition 2005, p. 30 that clarifies the substantial function of the recurrent laryngeal nerve during embryogenesis:
"The vagus nerve in the stage 16 embryo is very large in relation to the aortic arch system. The recurrent laryngeal nerve has a greater proportion of connective tissue than other nerves, making it more resistant to stretch. It has been suggested that tension applied by the left recurrent laryngeal nerve as it wraps around the ductus arteriosus could provide a means of support that would permit the ductus to develop as a muscular artery, rather than an elastic artery."

5) The RLN nerve allows biological redundancy as it provides bilateral nerve access to the larynx, which ensures maintaining functional larynx.

 

[LIIA]

The larger point here that you are (deliberatly?) ignoring, is that the cambrian explosion is not the only period of "rapid" radiation of species followed by stasis.

You only confirm my point; the entire geological history is characterized by stasis. Gradualism is absent in the geological history.

You didn’t get it, the point was not about what followed the cambrian explosion, it’s about the fact that the cambrian explosion was preceded by only single-celled/microbial simple live, there is absolutely no evidence of gradualism giving rise to the cambrian explosion. Do you understand?

 

[LIIA]

Okay, it has been some time, and I forgot which point you were trying to make.

Right now I am willing to be generous and will barely mention your error with Nebraska Man. That was an error that was never well accepted and merely trying to use it only demonstrates vast ignorance on your part.

Now back to whales. Whale evolution is not my area of expertise at all. I was aware of ambulocetus the "walking whale", it still had four distinct limbs. The timing of it seemed to contradict your claims. But it doesn't. What I was wrong about was the concept of a whale being fully aquatic. Ambulocetus, even though its name means walking whale probably could not walk. They are now thought to have been fully aquatic. That explains also how they could find only a jawbone and determine that it was a fully aquatic whale. It was a member of the ambulocetus family.

And that makes sense. The loss of the hind limbs would have had to have occurred some time after whales became fully aquatic. They would not just fall off immediately.

So what point are you trying to make?


Ambulocetidae - Wikipedia

So now you don’t have a problem with deriving quite a lot from mere bone fragment!! Anyways, the scientific consensus is that the jawbone that was discovered in Antarctica was from a fully aquatic whale which dates back 49 million years.

Pakicetus (which was a four-legged land mammal) was allegedly the oldest ancestor of whales. According to “Fossilworks Paleobiology Database", Pakicetus age range is: 48.6 to 40.4 Ma

Fossilworks: Pakicetus

The point is that the 49-million-year-old fully aquatic whale "Archaeocete" existed before almost all of the alleged whale ancestors (Ambulocetus, Rodhocetus, Procetus, Kutchicetus, Dorudon, Basilosaurus, Aetiocetus).

Given the brand-new bodily structures and biological functions of the fully aquatic whales, there was no time to allow the transformation from land dwelling mammal (Pakicetus) into the fully aquatic/ocean-dominating whale especially without any transitional forms.

Fully aquatic whales already existed long before and alongside their alleged ancestors when whales were still supposedly land creatures. Descendants cannot exist before the alleged ancestors.

See #1217 for the alleged evolution of whales.

Darwin's Illusion | Page 61 | Religious Forums

 

[Subduction Zone]

So now you don’t have a problem with deriving quite a lot from mere bone fragment!! Anyways, the scientific consensus is that the jawbone that was discovered in Antarctica was from a fully aquatic whale which dates back 49 million years.

Pakicetus (which was a four-legged land mammal) was allegedly the oldest ancestor of whales. According to “Fossilworks Paleobiology Database", Pakicetus age range is: 48.6 to 40.4 Ma

Fossilworks: Pakicetus

The point is that the 49-million-year-old fully aquatic whale "Archaeocete" existed before almost all of the alleged whale ancestors (Ambulocetus, Rodhocetus, Procetus, Kutchicetus, Dorudon, Basilosaurus, Aetiocetus).

Given the brand-new bodily structures and biological functions of the fully aquatic whales, there was no time to allow the transformation from land dwelling mammal (Pakicetus) into the fully aquatic/ocean-dominating whale especially without any transitional forms.

Fully aquatic whales already existed long before and alongside their alleged ancestors when whales were still supposedly land creatures. Descendants cannot exist before the alleged ancestors.

See #1217 for the alleged evolution of whales.

Darwin's Illusion | Page 61 | Religious Forums

Come on, you can do better than that. And you are terribly confused about whale evolution. You are incredibly wrong here. Your strawman fails.


You keep conflating terms for groups or even the whole group for species. As a result your rambling argument makes no sense. Try to make a clear claim and stick with it.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Again, logically, our reference/evidence should be the overwhelming rule not perceived exceptions

These are by no means exceptions. Our bodies (and the bodies of all organisms, for that matter) are overloaded with such things.

You made a statement which works against you, and clearly you don't care at all.
You clearly have blinders on.

These things are clearly and literally evidence against your statement / case. But you don't care at all, do you? All you care about is rationalizing your mistakes and falsehoods. It's pretty obvious.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

The function of the appendix was not previously known and has been a debated topic but today it is accepted that the appendix has an immunoprotective function, acts as a lymphoid organ, and a storage vessel for "good" colonic bacteria.

Here are some facts that shed light on the importance/function of the appendix:

a) The appendix plays the essential role of providing biological redundancy to ensures robustness of living organisms.

b) In humans, it is highly conserved, and malformations are extremely rare.

c) The appendix is a concentrate of lymphoid tissue resembling Peyer's patches and is the primary site for immunoglobulin A production which is crucial to regulate the density and quality of the intestinal flora.

d) Given its shape and position, the Appendix could be a unique niche for commensal bacteria in the body. It is extremely rich in biofilms that continuously shed bacteria into the intestinal lumen.

f) The Appendix contains a microbiota as diverse as that found in the colon and could replenish the large intestine with healthy flora after a diarrhea episode.

g) In conditions of modern medicine hygiene, and people live healthy without their appendix. However, several reports suggest that the effects of appendectomy could be subtler and associated with the development of inflammatory conditions such as inflammatory bowel disease (IBD), heart disease but also in less expected disorders such as Parkinson's disease.

h) Lack of an Appendix also predicts a worsen outcome for recurrent Clostridium difficile infection, which is the first nosocomial infection in hospitals.

j) The Appendix might be redundant in its immunological function but unique as a reservoir of microbiota.

The immunological functions of the Appendix: An example of redundancy? - PubMed (nih.gov)

k) The immune system cells located in the appendix have the function of protecting the good bacteria. The appendix protects us from bad germs by creating and protecting good germs.

The Appendix Protects Us From Germs And Protects Good Bacteria (medicalnewstoday.com)

View attachment 70646

l) The appendix Could Save our Life and help us recover from serious infections

Your Appendix Could Save Your Life - Scientific American

View attachment 70647

None of this counters the point made.
SO many people have to have it removed that it's a routine operation. So much so that there are surgeons in hospitals that literally do nothing else, day in day out.

Moreover, those that have it removed don't have any issues. Nor do they require taking meds or whatever to accommodate for the "loss" of it. So to call it "essential", is clearly nonsense.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

You only confirm my point; the entire geological history is characterized by stasis. Gradualism is absent in the geological history.

You didn’t get it, the point was not about what followed the cambrian explosion, it’s about the fact that the cambrian explosion was preceded by only single-celled/microbial simple live, there is absolutely no evidence of gradualism giving rise to the cambrian explosion. Do you understand?

And you keep ignoring the point.

Stasis = species entering local optimums.
When those optimums shift, species gradually shift toward the new optimum.

Derp di derp derp.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Oh I see, @LIIA has conflated ancestral and transitional again

Just because many Americans are descended from Europeans does not mean that there are not any Europeans any more. Evolution is not a linear process. The pakicetus fossil is most likely not ancestral, but that does not mean that it is not transitional. Your late great great great uncle Bob may have had some kids that only lasted a generation or two. Those kids would be "transitional". They could give us evidence about Jimbo, their uncle and Bob's brother. He is ancestral but we have no direct evidence of him. We only have indirect evidence.

Many transitional species are not ancestral. Sometimes this is not conveyed in amateur level publications.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Oh I see, @LIIA has conflated ancestral and transitional again

Just because many Americans are descended from Europeans does not mean that there are not any Europeans any more. Evolution is not a linear process. The pakicetus fossil is most likely not ancestral, but that does not mean that it is not transitional. Your late great great great uncle Bob may have had some kids that only lasted a generation or two. Those kids would be "transitional". They could give us evidence about Jimbo, their uncle and Bob's brother. He is ancestral but we have no direct evidence of him. We only have indirect evidence.

Many transitional species are not ancestral. Sometimes this is not conveyed in amateur level publications.

Intellectual honesty, is not a trait common among creationists.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

None of this counters the point made.
SO many people have to have it removed that it's a routine operation. So much so that there are surgeons in hospitals that literally do nothing else, day in day out.

Moreover, those that have it removed don't have any issues. Nor do they require taking meds or whatever to accommodate for the "loss" of it. So to call it "essential", is clearly nonsense.

I can't see the other side of the conversation, but I bet you are talking about the vermiform appendix.

Is another creationist conflating vestigial with non-functional? Yet again.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Oh I see, @LIIA has conflated ancestral and transitional again

Just because many Americans are descended from Europeans does not mean that there are not any Europeans any more. Evolution is not a linear process. The pakicetus fossil is most likely not ancestral, but that does not mean that it is not transitional. Your late great great great uncle Bob may have had some kids that only lasted a generation or two. Those kids would be "transitional". They could give us evidence about Jimbo, their uncle and Bob's brother. He is ancestral but we have no direct evidence of him. We only have indirect evidence.

Many transitional species are not ancestral. Sometimes this is not conveyed in amateur level publications.

I thought this thread was dead. Again.

Conflating terms is another creationist trope for sure.

I think I should start collecting these tropes for others, but it has been done. With so many out there, who has the time anyway.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I thought this thread was dead. Again.

Conflating terms is another creationist trope for sure.

I think I should start collecting these tropes for others, but it has been done. With so many out there, who has the time anyway.

The person that I was responding to was gone for about a month. It makes me wonder why.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

The person that I was responding to was gone for about a month. It makes me wonder why.

I hadn't noticed. Perhaps the were busy repeating what Denis Noble says somewhere else.

 

[LIIA]

you are terribly confused about whale evolution. You are incredibly wrong here. Your strawman fails.

Really? Why? Is that because you said so?

You keep conflating terms for groups or even the whole group for species. As a result your rambling argument makes no sense. Try to make a clear claim and stick with it.

I’m not. Your denial neither makes any sense nor has any value.

My claim was made long time ago and it didn’t change.
See #1217 for the alleged evolution of whales.

Darwin's Illusion | Page 61 | Religious Forums

 

[LIIA]

These are by no means exceptions. Our bodies (and the bodies of all organisms, for that matter) are overloaded with such things.

Seriously? Didn’t I already explain to you that all your alleged exceptions are false? It’s a false claim that you cannot demonstrate.

You made a statement which works against you, and clearly you don't care at all.
You clearly have blinders on.

These things are clearly and literally evidence against your statement / case. But you don't care at all, do you? All you care about is rationalizing your mistakes and falsehoods. It's pretty obvious.

Is that because you say so? I explained to you why your parroted claims are false. if you don’t agree, provide your reasons.

 

[LIIA]

None of this counters the point made.
SO many people have to have it removed that it's a routine operation. So much so that there are surgeons in hospitals that literally do nothing else, day in day out.

Nonsense, any surgeon who is specialized in any operation, would normally do it routinely but that has nothing to do with the statistical fact that the appendix problems are very rare in humans.

Moreover, those that have it removed don't have any issues. Nor do they require taking meds or whatever to accommodate for the "loss" of it. So to call it "essential", is clearly nonsense.

False. Again, several reports suggest that the effects of removing the appendix are associated with the development of inflammatory conditions such as inflammatory bowel disease (IBD), heart disease and in disorders such as Parkinson's disease. Also lack of an Appendix predicts a worsen outcome for recurrent Clostridium difficile infection, which is the first nosocomial infection in hospitals.
The immunological functions of the Appendix: An example of redundancy? - PubMed (nih.gov)

People may live normal and healthy live with one kidney; does this mean that the second kidney is not important? You may live without an eye, ear or finger and don’t require meds to accommodate the loss, does this mean that these organs/parts are not important? Of course not, Biological redundancy ensures robustness in living organisms.

We are “temporal beings”. The "curve of life" is designed to climb up to its peak, then must slope downward as we age. We are not meant to live forever. All our systems/organs must have functional decline as we age. The process may vary from one to another and affect different systems or organs, but it doesn’t mean that the affected system is not essential for live.

The appendix is a working part of our immune system, which helps our body to fight disease. As we get older this function of the appendix as well as many other functions of other organs decline or even stop. The aging process must happen.

 

[LIIA]

And you keep ignoring the point.

Stasis = species entering local optimums.
When those optimums shift, species gradually shift toward the new optimum.

Again, the entire geological history is characterized by stasis. Gradualism is nonexistent in the geological history.

Punctuated equilibrium - Wikipedia

 

[LIIA]

Oh I see, @LIIA has conflated ancestral and transitional again

Just because many Americans are descended from Europeans does not mean that there are not any Europeans any more. Evolution is not a linear process. The pakicetus fossil is most likely not ancestral, but that does not mean that it is not transitional. Your late great great great uncle Bob may have had some kids that only lasted a generation or two. Those kids would be "transitional". They could give us evidence about Jimbo, their uncle and Bob's brother. He is ancestral but we have no direct evidence of him. We only have indirect evidence.

Many transitional species are not ancestral. Sometimes this is not conveyed in amateur level publications.

This is a story, a wishful imagination not science or as Ernst Walter Mayr said “Geisteswissenschaften” (see # 331).

Chronological order of fossils that fit along a coherent evolutionary developmental line as gradual transitional variants (linear progression) to show an alleged lineage/relationship from ancestors to descendants is essential before any claim of gradualism can be made. If alleged Descendants lived long before or side by side with alleged ancestors (as clearly seen in the fossil record), then no ancestral relationship can be established. Without establishing an ancestral relationship, claims of relationships of alleged transitional fossils remain nothing but empty story " Geisteswissenschaften”. Again, Gradualism is nonexistent in the geological history.