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Darwin's Illusion

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
This is what you keep failing to understand. All my sources are from your side of the argument, i.e., evolutionists. "LegionOnomaMoi” is also an evolutionist but he is knowledgeable and ethical. See his post # 2266.

Darwin's Illusion | Page 114 | Religious Forums

and yes, they all insist that you’re a monkey, but this is not the point, the point is that they all confirm that the contemporary theory of evolution, i.e., the Modern Synthesis/Neo-Darwinism is an outdated theory and confirm the fact that the disproved central assumptions of the Modern Synthesis contradict latest scientific finds of the 21st century. Ignorant denial wouldn’t change the facts.
Dude! your failures have been explained to you again and again. First off they never "proved" anything. That was only a claim in a non-peer reviewed article. You never properly supported that claim. You do not seem to know how to.

The theory of evolution is always changing. Properly speaking it has not been "Darwinian evolution" sicne the 1920's. It is ot that any of Darwin's explanations have been shown to be wrong, well perhaps his idea of "gemmules". But that name was just a place holder since he was unsure of how traits were passed on.

But yes, all of your sources state that you are a monkey. When you use those sources you are admitting to a being a monkey as well.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I am not alone in my rejection of the Darwinian theory of evolution. There are scientists, too, who do not accept the traditional model of evolution, and I venture to say you probably think they are not well educated also if they do not accept evolution per the Darwinian model. What do you think?
I don't complain that nobody does the work for me. I'm asking those who post things promoting the theory to explain what they're saying and speak in terms they desire others to understand or accept. OK? If not, so be it. If you want me to get involved in an argument over this I probably will not, but I am saying it's easy enough to understand in the general scope that evolution as those adhering to the Darwinian method is not accepted by every educated scientist. And there's a reason for these scientists not accepting the traditional method of outlining "evolution."
There are only a handful of loons that deny evolution in the world of science. And practically all of them are not qualified to deny it. You need to remember what a scientist is.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I'm finding that some people actually DO believe humans are animals. Because that is what some scientists say. And others may agree with that. Others may not agree. :) Then I'm finding that if others do not agree that humans are animals like apes and perhaps bugs, some will take offense when challenged and tell others they are not educated, etc. Or harrassing them. :)
So now you think that you are a tree. Interesting.
 
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mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Scientifically -- if something is taught as true there should have a positively correct answer, if it's taught as truth, yes. There are things taught or believed by esteemed scientists that are questionable. In a big way. Take genetics, for example. While I resisted for a while saying on a questionnaire if I'm Caucasian, black, Indian, or whatever else they have there to check off for 'race,' I will probably not do so any more and check off something "not wishing to answer." Because we humans are humans. We're all of the same type. Meaning human.

So the current ToE is not proven true.
So what, because I actually read your link and it didn't say evolution was wrong. It just used another explanation as to the ToE.
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
Well, what if it is unknown? How is that for an option?
Does it logically follow that all questions must have a positive correct answer?
This is neither an answer nor an option. I didn’t ask you what is known/unknown or asked you to provide positive correct answer for anything. I only provided options and asked you if you can propose other options per your view and which option would be logical to you. Do you really think that there are no logical options at all? Or you simply cannot think of any additional option?

Philosophy is about observing the word to rationally extract conclusions not to get lost doubting everything including logic and rationalism.

I didn’t claim that all questions must have a positive correct answer, but answers are definitely attainable through the means of observations/rational interpretations.

Do you propose a positive correct answer that nothing can be known? If you do, then you just contradicted yourself by making such positive claim.

Philosophy is our rational means to understand reality, not merely some rhetoric. Without the absolute at the top of the hierarchy, it’s impossible for anything to have a meaning/definition.
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
The problem I have with proof as per reason and logic is some people don't understand the difference between true as valid based on thinking versus observable independent of thinking with empirical means,
Didn’t the empirical means show us that the universe has a beginning not eternal (i.e., contingent being)? Didn’t the empirical means show us that every single entity in our realm is contingent, and our entire realm is a contingent entity with a beginning? Didn’t the empirical means show us that none of the laws that control the contingent entities apply beyond the starting point of the universe (the BB)? Meaning, the causal influence that gave rise to our realm is non-contingent or subject to the confinement of natural laws, space or time.

What else do you want to observe? Do you want to observe God? You only do if you absolutely have no understanding of God's being. God is not a physical entity that reflects light within the visible spectrum so you may see him. God's eternal absolute nature, which is external to space-time and physical laws, is beyond anything we may know, observe or imagine. In fact, we cannot even understand the intrinsic nature of anything in our own realm for that matter. We may only have knowledge of God's attributes but never the nature of his being.
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
I am the sole arbiter of what is and what is not moral
So you are the sole arbiter and you have no problem for others to conform to your code but you have no reason to defer to somebody else's version, yet you don’t consider it to be an egocentrism view.
My conscience directs me away from those activities. That's why. Do you not also have an inner voice that tells you such things? If so, why are you asking? If not, I don't think I can explain.
What is conscience or the inner voice? Why/how in many cases it acts against the desires of your physical body?
It's perfectly fine with me if you want to live your life by different standards than I do. Maybe we disagree about abortion or premarital sex. That's not an issue for me.
Yes, individuals may disagree but in this case who gets to decide and why?

Premarital sex is the main reason for the problem of abortion. Once a new life comes to existence, no one has the right to end it. It’s neither moral nor acceptable. What is your conscience telling you about such conduct? this can be a separate discussion.
Matter is neither moral nor immoral
Yes, matter is neither moral nor immoral. The interactions of matter do not give rise to conscience, self-awareness or the ability to have qualia of any kind. These characteristics of your inner being are non-physical and continue beyond the non-functioning physical body. See the link below, #66

What happens after we die | Page 4 | Religious Forums

Did you ever notice the duality/ struggle between your physical body and the inner voice of your conscience?
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
The creationists like to imagine that they are in debate with the community of experts
No, the debate is among the experts themselves. See the link below.

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Why an extended evolutionary synthesis is necessary (royalsocietypublishing.org)
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
But yes, all of your sources state that you are a monkey. When you use those sources you are admitting to a being a monkey as well.
I use these sources for their confirmation about the errors of the outdated "Modern Synthesis" not for their beliefs about evolution or their alleged claim about you being a monkey. It appears that you’re offended by such claim, are you? Don’t you agree with them wholeheartedly? Why would you be offended? Shouldn’t you embrace your lineage? Anyways, you’re free to accept or deny whatever you wish.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
This is neither an answer nor an option. I didn’t ask you what is known/unknown or asked you to provide positive correct answer for anything. I only provided options and asked you if you can propose other options per your view and which option would be logical to you. Do you really think that there are no logical options at all? Or you simply cannot think of any additional option?

Philosophy is about observing the word to rationally extract conclusions not to get lost doubting everything including logic and rationalism.

I didn’t claim that all questions must have a positive correct answer, but answers are definitely attainable through the means of observations/rational interpretations.

Do you propose a positive correct answer that nothing can be known? If you do, then you just contradicted yourself by making such positive claim.

Philosophy is our rational means to understand reality, not merely some rhetoric. Without the absolute at the top of the hierarchy, it’s impossible for anything to have a meaning/definition.

Yeah, here is an example.
I gave move around but that has a limit. You know what I mean.
So it is not an absolute that I can move however I wish and it is not an absolute that I can't move at all.

You think that you can think everything as logical/rational for the correct answer in a positive sense as to make sense to you.
I don't. I accept that I can think/feel in a limit sense just as with human mobility. That is all.
The bold one is your absolute of everything must add up as to have a positive meaning as to make positive sense to you. In philosophy that is the "Holy Grail".
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Didn’t the empirical means show us that the universe has a beginning not eternal (i.e., contingent being)? Didn’t the empirical means show us that every single entity in our realm is contingent, and our entire realm is a contingent entity with a beginning? Didn’t the empirical means show us that none of the laws that control the contingent entities apply beyond the starting point of the universe (the BB)? Meaning, the causal influence that gave rise to our realm is non-contingent or subject to the confinement of natural laws, space or time.

What else do you want to observe? Do you want to observe God? You only do if you absolutely have no understanding of God's being. God is not a physical entity that reflects light within the visible spectrum so you may see him. God's eternal absolute nature, which is external to space-time and physical laws, is beyond anything we may know, observe or imagine. In fact, we cannot even understand the intrinsic nature of anything in our own realm for that matter. We may only have knowledge of God's attributes but never the nature of his being.

No, the BB theory doesn't show a beginning. That is a folk belief. There is no scientific theory of everything including that the universe has a beginning.
As for God, I do that differently than you.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So you are the sole arbiter and you have no problem for others to conform to your code but you have no reason to defer to somebody else's version, yet you don’t consider it to be an egocentrism view.
Yes, I, my ego alone, decides what I consider good and bad, right and wrong. I am a humanist, and my values include tolerance and promoting human development. I want to see the most people have the greatest opportunity to pursue happiness as they understand that. Is that egocentric? I suppose it is in a sense, but it is not selfish.
What is conscience or the inner voice?
I can only tell you what a conscience feels like, what values it imposes on me, and the cost of being in conflict with my conscience (guilt, shame, regret). It's the source of empathy. I can also tell you that many people appear to have little or no conscience, and exhibit sociopathic behavior (lack of empathy). I suspect that its substrate like all conscious phenomena is neuronal.
individuals may disagree but in this case who gets to decide and why?
Depends if we're discussing individual choices or structuring society. Regarding abortion, each individual decides for him- or herself how he or she feels about that, but in Western democracies, voters, judges, and legislators decide what will be legal.
Premarital sex is the main reason for the problem of abortion.
I don't consider abortion a problem, but I do consider lack of access to it a problem, and an unwanted pregnancy another problem. I don't know what fraction of unwanted pregnancies resulted from premarital sex. Nor do I care. I have no issue with premarital sex except to say that I recommend it to everybody getting married and also to everybody not get married.
Once a new life comes to existence, no one has the right to end it.
As a legal matter, that depends on the law. Most women in free nations other than America have protected access to safe and affordable abortions. As a moral issue, that's a personal decision, assuming that there is a choice.
It’s neither moral nor acceptable. What is your conscience telling you about such conduct?
I don't like that there are unwanted pregnancies, because I neither like abortion nor forced births. For me, as a man, the moral issue was never about having an abortion, but whether women should have access to the option, that is, who makes the choice of whether any unwanted pregnancy comes to term - the potential mother or the church using the power of the state. As I said, I'm a humanist, and I support empowering these women with the options necessary to manage their lives. If a college girl gets pregnant and chooses to finish her education before starting a family, which might require her dropping out of school and taking a waitressing job, then I want her to have that power over her own life.
The interactions of matter do not give rise to conscience, self-awareness or the ability to have qualia of any kind.
So you say. I don't have a dog in that hunt, but materialism and consciousness being an epiphenomenon of matter is very much a possibility. Why does it matter if you're right or wrong? The commonest reason theists argue this point in my experience is because of believing that the fundamental reality is an immaterial god (mind), and they see matter as its creation, making them metaphysical idealists.
These characteristics of your inner being are non-physical and continue beyond the non-functioning physical body.
I have no reason to believe that anything is non-physical or that consciousness persists beyond death. Maybe, but maybe not, and there is little support for the maybe beyond things like near death experiences, which are not convincing.
Did you ever notice the duality/ struggle between your physical body and the inner voice of your conscience?
Sure, but I'd frame it differently. We all have more than one inner voice. Sometimes, they give conflicting instructions and we experience cognitive dissonance. Like you, I have urges that come from my reptilian and mammalian brains, and desires that come from higher human centers (reason and conscience). One says fight or flee and the other says do neither, a third possibility will work out better. One says to get a drink and the other says you need to fast for surgery tomorrow. But nothing beyond that, and those states are brief and mild.

the debate is among the experts themselves. See the link below.
That's a different debate. There are differences within the scientific community, but not over whether evolution or intelligent creation occurred. That's the debate to which I was referring - creationists disagreeing with the scientists. The scientists aren't debating them or hearing them.
 
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Audie

Veteran Member
Yes, I, my ego alone decides what I consider good and bad, right and wrong. I am a humanist, and my values include tolerance and human development. I want to see the most people have the greatest opportunity to pursue happiness as they understand that. Is that egocentric? I suppose it is in a sense, but it is not selfish.

I can only tell you what a conscience feels like, what values it imposes on me, and the cost of being in conflict with my conscience (guilt, shame, regret). It's the source of empathy. I can also tell you that many people appear to have little or no conscience, and exhibit sociopathic behavior (lack of empathy). I suspect that its substrate like all conscious phenomena is neuronal.

Depends if we're discussing individual choices or structuring society. Regarding abortion, each individual decides for him- or herself how he or she feels about that, but in Western democracies, voters, judges, and legislators decide what will be legal.

I don't consider abortion a problem, but I do consider an unwanted pregnancy a problem, and I don't know what fraction of unwanted pregnancies resulted from premarital sex. Nor do I care. I have no issue with premarital sex except to say that I recommend it to everybody getting married and also to everybody not get married.

As a legal matter, that depends on the law. Most women in free nations other than America have protected access to safe and affordable abortions. As a moral issue, that's a personal decision, assuming that there is a choice.

I don't like that there are unwanted pregnancies, because I neither like abortion nor forced births. For me, as a man, the moral issue was never about having an abortion, but whether women should have access to the option, that is, who makes the choice of whether any unwanted pregnancy comes to term - the potential mother or the church using the power of the state. As I said, I'm a humanist, and I support empowering these women with the options necessary to manage their lives. If a college girl gets pregnant and chooses to finish her education before starting a family, which might require her dropping out of school and taking a waitressing job, then I want her to have that power over her own life.

So you say. I don't have a dog in that hunt, but materialism and consciousness being an epiphenomenon of matter is very much a possibility. Why does it matter if you're right or wrong? The commonest reason theists argue this point in my experience is because of believing that the fundamental reality is an immaterial god (mind), and they see matter as its creation, making them metaphysical idealists.

I have no reason to believe that anything is non-physical or that consciousness persists beyond death. Maybe, but maybe not, and there is little support for the maybe beyond things like near death experiences, which is not convincing.

Sure, but I'd frame it differently. We all have more than one inner voice. Sometimes, they give conflicting instructions and I feel conflicted. I have urges that come from my reptilian and mammalian brains, and desires the come from higher human centers (reason and conscience). One says fight or flee and the other says do neither, a third possibility will work out better. One says to get a drink and the other says you need to fast for surgery tomorrow. But nothing beyond that, and those states are brief and mild.
If it's going to be me alone with a strange man
on a desert island. I will take my chanes with
someone who has intelligently thought through
his moral and ethical choices over some adherent of an
Abrahamic religion.

If it's a funndy I'd far rather be alone.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
If it's going to be me alone with a strange man
on a desert island. I will take my chanes with
someone who has intelligently thought through
his moral and ethical choices over some adherent of an
Abrahamic religion.

If it's a funndy I'd far rather be alone.

That is about intelligence. That has not to do with religion in the strong sense. And it has nothing to do with morality and ethics. A human can be intelligent and have bad morality and ethics.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
How do you think that helps you? All that is is an acknowledgment that new concepts need to be included. It is not a refutation of the "standard theory of evolution".

Your logic skills are lacking again. Discoveries that Newton's Universal Law of Gravitation was not one hundred percent accurate did not result in its being thrown out by scientists. They knew that sometimes it was inaccurate. And that was way back in the 1800's. Einstein came up with his theory that supplanted Newton's work in the 1900's. Guess what, Newton's work was still accurate enough for all sorts of uses. His theory is used for ballistics, not Einstein's because it is so much easier to do the math. We relied on Newton's Laws of gravity to get to the Moon and back. It was accurate enough for that.

Bonus question, what every day device that you probably use relies upon Einstein's work and not Newton's?

Calls for reform are rarely refutations in the sciences That is all that you have found. And all of your sources disagree with you about the fact that you are a product of evolution. It appears to be a natural process. Even if all of those reforms were adopted you would still be a monkey.
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
Yeah, here is an example.
I gave move around but that has a limit. You know what I mean.
So it is not an absolute that I can move however I wish and it is not an absolute that I can't move at all.

You think that you can think everything as logical/rational for the correct answer in a positive sense as to make sense to you.
I don't. I accept that I can think/feel in a limit sense just as with human mobility. That is all.
The bold one is your absolute of everything must add up as to have a positive meaning as to make positive sense to you. In philosophy that is the "Holy Grail".
Everything in our realm has limits. Everything is relative. Nothing can be defined unless it gets defined in relation to something else/reference but How is that relevant? It’s not about what makes sense to me in a personal sense, I only provided options/possibilities and asked you to provide your own if you can and which option is valid logically. Again, here are the options:

a) A is dependent on A1, A1 is dependent on A2 ….(continues in an infinite regression)

b) A is dependent on A1, A1 is dependent on A2 …, Ax is dependent on A (circular reasoning)

c) A is dependent on A1, A1 is dependent on A2 …, Ax is dependent on "the Absolute". "The Absolute" is non-contingent/first cause.

Which option is logically valid? Are there any other relevant options?
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
No, the BB theory doesn't show a beginning.
It does show a beginning of the universe about 13.8 billion years ago. Beyond the BB, there were no matter, physical laws, radiation, space or time. Nothing physical of any kind. It was the beginning.

Big-bang model | Definition, Evidence, Videos, & Facts | Britannica

Big bang theory | McGraw Hill's AccessScience

SVS - The Big Bang (nasa.gov)

The Big Bang | Science Mission Directorate (nasa.gov)

The big bang | Institute of Physics (iop.org)
 
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