Day of judgement (Quran)

[A Thousand Suns]

John 5
19 Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed.21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son,23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him. 24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Notice, that Jesus is the ONLY Son, where we are adopted children

Ephesians 1
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.

They say: "Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (To salvation)." Say thou: "Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with Allah." [2:136]

Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam)."

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Scriptural debates with him will be a waste of time.

Hello Abibi, Looks like you are right.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Your understanding of Biblical scripture is wanting at best.

Can you give me an example why you think this way?

The Bahai faith is a false faith.

you are free to think that way. But is there a reason?

 

[Bowman]

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Can you give me an example why you think this way?



you are free to think that way. But is there a reason?

According to you, your bahai scriptures tell you that the Universe is static.

However, modern science tells us the exact opposite….as does the Holy Bible…of which, both are in direct conflict with your faith.

According to the Holy Bible the Universe had a beginning, time had a beginning.

This is in agreement with science.

Your faith cannot even get the physical things correct…thus, I would not expect it to get the non-physical things correct either…

 

[InvestigateTruth]

According to you, your bahai scriptures tell you that the Universe is static.

When did I say such a thing?

According to the Holy Bible the Universe had a beginning, time had a beginning.

Accroding to Bible how long ago Universe begin? How long ago time started?

 

[Bowman]

When did I say such a thing?

Right here...

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2241696-post34.html

Accroding to Bible how long ago Universe begin? How long ago time started?

Time began with the Universe.

The Holy Bible indicates that the earth and Universe are very ancient.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

According to you, your bahai scriptures tell you that the Universe is static.

So, As, you re-posted my post, I had said:

"His creation is gradual and evolutionary"

Therefore I didn't say universe is static.

Time began with the Universe.

The Holy Bible indicates that the earth and Universe are very ancient.

Agree, but how ancient?

We say, God existed from begining that has no begining. Since God is the Creater, and "the Creater was His name from begining that has no begining", therefore His creation also existed from begining that has no begining. This in Bible is simply mentioned as 'ancient'. Now, it is explained what ancient means.

This is why Abdulbaha in Some Answered Questions said:

"Know that it is one of the most abstruse spiritual truths that the world of existence—that is to say, this endless universe—has no beginning.
….a creator without a creature is impossible….If we could imagine a time when no beings existed, this imagination would be the denial of the Divinity of God."




So, can you bring a verse from the Bible which indicates there was a time that God's creation didn't exist?

 

[Bowman]

So, As, you re-posted my post, I had said:

"His creation is gradual and evolutionary"

Therefore I didn't say universe is static.

You mentioned this...

"....this endless universe, has neither beginning nor end.”

This is known as a static Universe.

This line of thought has long been disproven both by the Holy Bible and General/Special Relativity.

Agree, but how ancient?

We say, God existed from begining that has no begining. Since God is the Creater, and "the Creater was His name from begining that has no begining", therefore His creation also existed from begining that has no begining. This in Bible is simply mentioned as 'ancient'. Now, it is explained what ancient means.

This is why Abdulbaha in Some Answered Questions said:

"Know that it is one of the most abstruse spiritual truths that the world of existence—that is to say, this endless universe—has no beginning.
….a creator without a creature is impossible….If we could imagine a time when no beings existed, this imagination would be the denial of the Divinity of God."




So, can you bring a verse from the Bible which indicates there was a time that God's creation didn't exist?

Genesis chapter 1.

The creation verb employed for bringing things into being for the very first time is 'bara'...

 

[InvestigateTruth]

This is known as a static Universe.

I am not sure how you conclude that, it means static. Seems like you denied all those quotes.

Static means, something that does not change, and always remains the same.
When we say, it has neither beginning nor end, it means that it always existed, but always has been evolving, and always shall evolve.

That's why Abdul'baha said:

"man, in the beginning of his existence and in the womb of the earth, like the embryo in the womb of the mother, gradually grew and developed, and passed from one form to another, from one shape to another, until he appeared with this beauty and perfection, this force and this power... Man was always a distinct species, a man, not an animal. "


Does the above quote to you mean static or evolving?

So, do you believe that human always was the same with no change and improvement?

Genesis chapter 1.
The creation verb employed for bringing things into being for the very first time is 'bara'...

Gen. 1 says:

1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and
the earth."

Again, when was that beginning started?
You answered ancient.
And how ancient?
I have already explained that in previous post.

No matter how far you go back in time, the creation of God existed. For He has always been the Creator.
If you deny this, then you are saying that there was a time that God was not a creator.

Hope this is clear now.

 

[Bowman]

I am not sure how you conclude that, it means static. Seems like you denied all those quotes.

No denial.

Taking one point at a time to see how your faith stacks-up.

Static means, something that does not change, and always remains the same.
When we say, it has neither beginning nor end, it means that it always existed, but always has been evolving, and always shall evolve.

Fact is, the Universe has not always existed.

To deny this would be to deny the most proven principle in all of physics.

If your 'scriptures' state otherwise, then you have a false faith.

Period.

That's why Abdul'baha said:

"man, in the beginning of his existence and in the womb of the earth, like the embryo in the womb of the mother, gradually grew and developed, and passed from one form to another, from one shape to another, until he appeared with this beauty and perfection, this force and this power... Man was always a distinct species, a man, not an animal. "

This sounds like a quote from Job.

Does the above quote to you mean static or evolving?

Static.

So, do you believe that human always was the same with no change and improvement?

Yes.

Gen. 1 says:

1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and
the earth."

Again, when was that beginning started?

This would be the beginning of time as we understand it.

Time for us does not exist without matter.

You answered ancient.
And how ancient?

No dates are given in scripture.

I have already explained that in previous post.

No matter how far you go back in time, the creation of God existed. For He has always been the Creator.
If you deny this, then you are saying that there was a time that God was not a creator.

Hope this is clear now.

Genesis states that the Universe had a beginning, brother.

What Hebrew words would you like to cover..?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

No denial.

Taking one point at a time to see how your faith stacks-up.

It's good you are investigating. But I recommend that you also read the Books. as, reading the whole chapters will give you a better and more complete understanding, rather than just refering to a few quotes.

Fact is, the Universe has not always existed.

How would you know this is a fact?

If you say this based on the Bible, It depends how it is interpreted. I would interpret it as, since the Creator always existed, so, did His creation from beginning that has no beginning.


(In Math. You can think of having a limit of infinity)

Also, consider, there was a time, that people believed the earth was flat. and they thought it was a fact. later, they realized that wasn't the case.
Science is also evolving.
Currently, Science has some hypothesis with regards to this matter, and nothing is proven.
Check here:

Has the cosmos always existed or did it have a beginning in time? - WolfWikis

This sounds like a quote from Job.

Can you please post that Quote?

 

[Bowman]

It's good you are investigating. But I recommend that you also read the Books. as, reading the whole chapters will give you a better and more complete understanding, rather than just refering to a few quotes.

The quotes were given by you, brother...as a representation of what your scriptures state.

How would context tell us anything more about an eternal Universe than it not having a beginning nor an end?

The Universe is not eternal.

How would you know this is a fact?

Both science and the Holy Bible make the same claim, and have yet to be falsified.

If you say this based on the Bible, It depends how it is interpreted. I would interpret it as, since the Creator always existed, so, did His creation from beginning that has no beginning.

The creation is not the creator, brother.

You seem to not be able to separate the two...

(In Math. You can think of having a limit of infinity)

Also, consider, there was a time, that people believed the earth was flat. and they thought it was a fact. later, they realized that wasn't the case.
Science is also evolving.
Currently, Science has some hypothesis with regards to this matter, and nothing is proven.
Check here:

Has the cosmos always existed or did it have a beginning in time? - WolfWikis

Your link is unscientific and does not discount a beginning.

Can you please post that Quote?

Job 10.8 - 19

Your hands have made me and shaped me together all around; yet You engulf me. Remember, I beseech You, that You have formed me as clay; and will You bring me to dust again? Did You not pour me out like milk; yea, curdled me like cheese?You clothed me with skin and flesh, and knitted me with bones and sinews.You have made me have life and favor, and Your providence has kept my spirit.And these You have hidden in Your heart; I know that this was with You.If I sin, then You watch me; and You will not acquit me from my guilt. If I am wrong, woe to me! And if I am righteous, I will not lift up my head, being filled with shame and seeing my pain. And if it rise, You would hunt me as a lion; and again You show Yourself wonderful in me. You renew Your witnesses against me, and increase Your anger with me; changes and warfare are with me. Why then did You bring me from the womb? I would have died, and no eye seen me. I would have been as though I had never been, carried from the womb to the grave.


Your scriptures look like a re-writing of Job…

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The quotes were given by you, brother...as a representation of what your scriptures state.

we share our understandings based on scriptures. We are not representative.
For example to understand Bible, one should read it himself to gain a better understanding of it's message.

The creation is not the creator, brother.

You seem to not be able to separate the two...

The creation is not the creator. God is independent of all His creation while all His creation depends on Him. God from beginning was alone, and is alone and shall be alone. This signifies His oneness and unity. As there is no God beside God.

Having said that, God always was the Creator and He never was without any creation. So, His creation is more ancient than human's mind can imagine.

This has a spiritual signification. Because one of the attributes of God, is that He is creator. God according to Holy scriptures is spirit and not physical. He is an eternal being. Therefore His attributes are also eternal in the past eternal in the future. So is His creation.

Job 10.8 - 19



Your scriptures look like a re-writing of Job…

Thanks for posting it. there are similar words, but I think this is totally regarding another subject. It doesn't seem to describe a gradual perfection of human on earth.
Although, the Baha'i belief is that the foundation of all religions is the same and all the scriptures fundamentally give the same message.

 

[Bowman]

The creation is not the creator. God is independent of all His creation while all His creation depends on Him. God from beginning was alone, and is alone and shall be alone. This signifies His oneness and unity. As there is no God beside God.

Having said that, God always was the Creator and He never was without any creation. So, His creation is more ancient than human's mind can imagine.

This has a spiritual signification. Because one of the attributes of God, is that He is creator. God according to Holy scriptures is spirit and not physical. He is an eternal being. Therefore His attributes are also eternal in the past eternal in the future. So is His creation.

If His creation were eternal then there would have been no reason to state that it was created, as described in the Holy Bible.

You seem to have trouble mixing your scriptures with false ones...

 

[InvestigateTruth]

If His creation were eternal then there would have been no reason to state that it was created, as described in the Holy Bible.

You seem to have trouble mixing your scriptures with false ones...

It seems that you are thinking that God, at some point thought and decided to create, and before that from eternity God didn't think about creating or was trying to figure out how to create or what to create?

How strange brother.:no:

Anyways, I found more scriptures and some writings about creation which are interesting:

Bahá'í Reference Library - Foundations of World Unity, Pages 107-112


Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, Pages 204-206

Bahá'í Reference Library - Foundations of World Unity, Pages 51-53


Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, Pages 195-196

 

[Bowman]

It seems that you are thinking that God, at some point thought and decided to create, and before that from eternity God didn't think about creating or was trying to figure out how to create or what to create?

How strange brother.

Please explain why Biblical scriptures maintain creation events if creation was eternal to begin with.

You seem to want to side-step the issue, brother...perhaps you have not bothered to think through the fatal flaws in the bahai faith.

Anyways, I found more scriptures and some writings about creation which are interesting:

Bahá'í Reference Library - Foundations of World Unity, Pages 107-112


Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, Pages 204-206

Bahá'í Reference Library - Foundations of World Unity, Pages 51-53


Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, Pages 195-196

More musings and commmentary on a static Universe.

More contradiction with what we see in the record of nature and the written words of the Holy Bible.

You are following a false path, brother...

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Please explain why Biblical scriptures maintain creation events if creation was eternal to begin with.

Humanity's capacity to understand has been increasing throughout the ages.
The revelations of God are progressive. This is why there has been so many prophets such as Noah, Abraham, Moses, etc...and these prophets shall continue to come, whenever God wishes. It's God's to decide.
But every time a new prophet came, it was always rejected by people of their time. Check the history to see this truth yourself.
There has been false prophets too, even around the time of Jesus, before or after, but the false one's religion didn't make progress. (Remember, in Bible, That’s what Jesus taught!)

As the capacity of humanity to understand increases, newer teaching comes through prophets.
Progressive revelation means, that for every age, a prophet appears and has teachings in accordance with the time.

So, if you consider the time for which the Bible was written, i.e. the level of understanding of the people of that time, you would realize why the stories in Bible were written that way.

Also, please note that, when we say, creation of God always existed, it doesn't mean that it was always the same. No. It has been always evolving and changing. So, if you use the word static, it's not appropriate.

Can you please put a couple of verses from Bible that shows events of creation? then, we can discuss to see if they really contradict. Thanks.

 

[Bowman]

Humanity's capacity to understand has been increasing throughout the ages.
The revelations of God are progressive. This is why there has been so many prophets such as Noah, Abraham, Moses, etc...and these prophets shall continue to come, whenever God wishes. It's God's to decide.
But every time a new prophet came, it was always rejected by people of their time. Check the history to see this truth yourself.
There has been false prophets too, even around the time of Jesus, before or after, but the false one's religion didn't make progress. (Remember, in Bible, That’s what Jesus taught!)

As the capacity of humanity to understand increases, newer teaching comes through prophets.
Progressive revelation means, that for every age, a prophet appears and has teachings in accordance with the time.

So, if you consider the time for which the Bible was written, i.e. the level of understanding of the people of that time, you would realize why the stories in Bible were written that way.

Also, please note that, when we say, creation of God always existed, it doesn't mean that it was always the same. No. It has been always evolving and changing. So, if you use the word static, it's not appropriate.

Can you please put a couple of verses from Bible that shows events of creation? then, we can discuss to see if they really contradict. Thanks.

You have to look no farther than Genesis chapter one for your answer, brother.

When the God of the Holy Bible creates something brand new of great importance the creation verb ‘bara’ is utilized. We see this verb used in the opening chapter of the Holy Bible.

The thing that was newly created is the Universe and the earth.

There would have been no need to begin the Holy Bible with such a statement if the Universe and the earth already existed.

Further, the first creation ‘day’ ends with the statement ‘time one’, as there was nothing which with to reference the creation event, as time itself was created with the creation of the Universe.

The Bahai world-view is false….and so is their faith…

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The thing that was newly created is the Universe and the earth.

We didn't say, it wasn't created. it wasn't newly. it was ancient.

There would have been no need to begin the Holy Bible with such a statement if the Universe and the earth already existed.

Further, the first creation ‘day’ ends with the statement ‘time one’, as there was nothing which with to reference the creation event, as time itself was created with the creation of the Universe.

If you are referring to followings:

1:3 "And God said, Let there be light: and there
was light. 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was
good: and God divided the light from the
darkness. 1:5 And God called the light Day, and
the darkness he called Night. And the evening
and the morning were the first day."



It is referring to creation of spirituality.
Light signifies, the light of guidance. It is the guidance of God.
Darkness represents the ignorance of people.
In every revelation of God which is the 'Day' of God, a Manifestation of God appears. Just as Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah appeared.
These revelations have their beginning (Morning) and they have their night.

As you know, there are mysteries in the Bible which are written in parabolic language, which are now revealed in the Baha'i scriptures for this Day of God.

How well it was said:

"The legs of the lame are not equal: so is a parable in the mouth of fools." Prov. 26:8

The Bahai world-view is false….and so is their faith…

You can repeat that as many times as you want brother.
By the way according to Bible God does not allow false prophets to enter the land of Israel. But Baha'u'llah was exiled to the land of Israel and imprisoned there.

So, looks like you are going against the words of Holy Bible.

 

[Bowman]

We didn't say, it wasn't created. it wasn't newly. it was ancient.

If the Universe is eternal as the Bahai 'scriptures' state, and you confirmed that you believe in, then it was never created....it always existed without beginning or end.

It cannot be 'ancient', either...it must be eternal.

You have not bothered to think through the garbage that you are being fed...

If you are referring to followings:

1:3 "And God said, Let there be light: and there
was light. 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was
good: and God divided the light from the
darkness. 1:5 And God called the light Day, and
the darkness he called Night. And the evening
and the morning were the first day."



It is referring to creation of spirituality.
Light signifies, the light of guidance. It is the guidance of God.
Darkness represents the ignorance of people.
In every revelation of God which is the 'Day' of God, a Manifestation of God appears. Just as Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah appeared.
These revelations have their beginning (Morning) and they have their night.

So...this is how followers of Bahia skirt Biblical physical creation scriptures?

Genesis is literal and completely follows the scientific record.

This should be a giant red flag that Bahai is false.

You can repeat that as many times as you want brother.

Indeed. I will...and scripture will be my support.