Death-bed Conversions

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes, I am assuming the conversion is not sincere.
It would only be a selfless act if it wasn't sincere, because if it was sincere
It would be someone cowardly deperate to save themself by abandoning reason,
that's not what i'm discussing.

Or it could be an act of frustration by someone who already has a heavy burned being laden on even more by theist friends and family. "All right already - I accept Jesus! Now just leave me alone to die in peace!"

 

[Tathagata]

Evidence?

Demanding Negative Proof fallacy.


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[dogsgod]

you mean to say they don't exist? I'm sure they do. Even if the belief is not genuine

I doubt that deathbed conversions take place. It's more probable that believers just want to believe they take place and make up stories about them.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

Allow me to clarify. You get two 'types' of believers. We'll say "conservative" and "liberal". "Conservative" believers believe that only their religion is right, those who believe get in and those who don't, don't. Deathbed conversions are not enough. In their minds your conversion doesn't save you. It offers them no comfort. "Liberal" believers tend to be more open and consider those that don't believe do have a chance so long as they lived their lives well and were good. Their God is after all understanding and forgiving. You converting doesn't really matter. If you were a good person they will be inclined to believe God understood how you came to your thoughts and forgave you. You have a chance. That's what I was getting at.

I hate it when I have to choose from categories that don't fit me...

On your death bed, it is too late to become someone different. If you are selfish, hateful and evil, it's too late for you. I don't care if you want to convert to Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, or Atheism; it's not gonna change who you are in a few hours. I guess that I think I fit better in your "Liberal" category, if that means I believe in a sane, just God. Everyone on this earth has exactly what they need to complete their mortal test. All men and women are given truth of some sort. It's not how much we have that counts, it's what we do with what we have (see parable of the talents). In fact, in my opinion, the people who are blessed to posses the knowledge that God lives are more responsible for lack of belief in God than anyone else. Jesus told us believers that we are the light of the world, that a city on a hill can not be hid. We are supposed to receive his image in our countenances. We are supposed to become Christlike to the point that we radiate his light. Unfortunately, those of us who are called to be "the salt of the earth" often think it's about us. We get all caught up in pride and sin and end up missing our whole reason for being here. We may "draw near unto [God] with our lips, but [our] hearts are far from [him]." "If the salt has lost it's savor, wherewith shall the earth be salted?"

I am afraid that most of the salt of the earth has lost it's savor and a lot of the candles have been hid under a bushel. What we need is to heed this commandment of Jesus Christ: "Therefore, hold up your light that it may shine unto the world. Behold I am the light which ye shall hold up—that which ye have seen me do."

When we (meaning those of us who claim to be followers of Christ) learn to truly become as Jesus Christ is, no one will wonder if God exists, because we will be irrevocable, walking evidence of the reality of God. Sigh... What on earth are we waiting for guys... The good atheists are waiting for us...

 

[bowingtoGod]

How interesting. I know that in Islam if you do that (conversion right before death) you may not be saved. There is a story of Pharaoh (the same one that Moses (peace be upon him) went up against). He saw that he was about to die, and that God really did exist. So he was about to confess his belief when something went in his mouth so he could not say it. And he died.
But as for doing it for the sake of the people. Alhamdulillah (praise be to God) that is a very nice gesture for your loved ones, but... I think it best to always do and say what you believe to be true. No matter what.

 

[MaybeSpartacus]

Okay, so I don't believe in deathbed repentence so I guess that makes me a conservative. I do believe pretty much everything you said about liberals. So what does that make me? (Besides a Mormon, I mean. )

A person? I meant no political connotations but couldn't think of any good descriptive words. Hence the " " for them.

I hate it when I have to choose from categories that don't fit me...

Pshaw. You should conform to meet my views of world. :flirt:

 

[Copernicus]

Death-bed conversions of atheists are well known (to theist at least). I beileve Charles Darwin was the victim of such a nonsensical rumor.

Whether common or not, the idea of such events is important to believers. It helps them to validate their own beliefs, which atheists reject. It is comforting to think that atheists will, at some point, affirm their belief system. More importantly, though, a lot of people believe that people who die outside of a state of grace will either suffer in the afterlife or fail to join them in eternal bliss.

This might be an odd position to take but I think death-bed conversion of an atheist is actually heroic on the part of the atheitst.

Wouldn't that depend on a lot of variables? How can you generalize like this? I can imagine circumstances under which it would be heroic not to succumb to family pressure to pretend conversion.

Think about it, the atheist is infact NOT considering himself by confessing, he/she does it to ease the pain felt by family/friend believers around him. This is prehaps the greatest feat of selflessness, even at deaths door you are making plans for the future wellbeing of your loved ones ... in so doing sacrificing your own prided belief and reputation.

Darwin's wife was deeply distressed at his atheism, yet he lived most of his adult life as a staunch atheist. Do you think that she would have been fooled or comforted by a pretend conversion? He was deeply devoted to her, yet he had the honesty not to try to hide his true convictions. Sometimes loved ones prefer not to be condescended to. I don't know about how she felt, except that I have read that she was deeply distressed by his atheism and the role he played in opposing religious ideas about special creation.

 

[Riverwolf]

Demanding Negative Proof fallacy.


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...huh? I learned the hard way that speaking in sentence fragments usually results in misunderstandings.

 

[rhyshanan]

Whether common or not, the idea of such events is important to believers. It helps them to validate their own beliefs, which atheists reject. It is comforting to think that atheists will, at some point, affirm their belief system. More importantly, though, a lot of people believe that people who die outside of a state of grace will either suffer in the afterlife or fail to join them in eternal bliss.


Wouldn't that depend on a lot of variables? How can you generalize like this? I can imagine circumstances under which it would be heroic not to succumb to family pressure to pretend conversion.


Darwin's wife was deeply distressed at his atheism, yet he lived most of his adult life as a staunch atheist. Do you think that she would have been fooled or comforted by a pretend conversion? He was deeply devoted to her, yet he had the honesty not to try to hide his true convictions. Sometimes loved ones prefer not to be condescended to. I don't know about how she felt, except that I have read that she was deeply distressed by his atheism and the role he played in opposing religious ideas about special creation.

yes, I have already agreed that the atheist conversion I spoke of is one of many outcomes for some of many reasons. didn't mean to imply otherwise.
just considered this particular senario to a moving act of selflessness.

 

[Midnight Pete]

Death bed conversions are no more a part of reality than invisible gods.

God is invisible, did you know that? God Himself can't be seen by us. Jesus Christ has many epiphets one of which is "The Image of the Invisible God." (Colossians 1:15)

 

[PolyHedral]

God is invisible [...] "The Image of the Invisible God"

Is He Pink?

 

[Revoltingest]

Death-bed conversions of atheists are well known (to theist at least). I beileve Charles Darwin was the victim of such a nonsensical rumor.

This might be an odd position to take but I think death-bed conversion of an atheist is actually heroic on the part of the atheitst.

Think about it, the atheist is infact NOT considering himself by confessing, he/she does it to ease the pain felt by family/friend believers around him. This is prehaps the greatest feat of selflessness, even at deaths door you are making plans for the future wellbeing of your loved ones ... in so doing sacrificing your own prided belief and reputation.

If you believe one thing when you're lucid & stress-free, and then you believe the
opposite under extreme duress.....which belief should be trusted more? To grasp
at a comforting myth in a time of woe, strikes me as weak rather than heroic.

 

[BucephalusBB]

Can't see why people think this is strange. Many atheists are agnostic atheists like me. If you believe that death is the end, but there is a slight possibillity, even so small, that there is a God and he is the only one that can save you from the end....? I would pray, even though realizing it would be useless. But I love life, I would fight to the end...no matter what..

Also, on the moment that atheists start praying, do not think it's the christian God they are praying to, neither the islamic Allah, but their own version of what would be most logical to their thoughts. So it is useless saying that they are to late for praying.

 

[Revoltingest]

.....death is the end, but there is a slight possibillity, even so small, that there is a God and he is the only one that can save you from the end....? I would pray, even though realizing it would be useless. But I love life, I would fight to the end...no matter what.

What if there's a god who despises weaklings who only believe when the Grim Reaper comes a'calling?
I'm not taking any chances. I'm sticking to my ignorance of the supernatural.

 

[logician]

Death-bed conversions of atheists are well known (to theist at least). I beileve Charles Darwin was the victim of such a nonsensical rumor.

This might be an odd position to take but I think death-bed conversion of an atheist is actually heroic on the part of the atheitst.

Think about it, the atheist is infact NOT considering himself by confessing, he/she does it to ease the pain felt by family/friend believers around him. This is prehaps the greatest feat of selflessness, even at deaths door you are making plans for the future wellbeing of your loved ones ... in so doing sacrificing your own prided belief and reputation.

It's good to be a liar?

 

[Kathryn]

My conjecture is that any opinion on deathbed conversions and their validity or lack thereof is pure conjecture at best.

I also believe that all of us are in for some surprises when it comes to "who gets into heaven and who doesn't."

Personally, I am not going to even TRY to judge the state of someone's immortal soul. Only God knows their heart, their sincerity, and their eternal destination.

 

[Smoke]

you mean to say they don't exist? I'm sure they do.

I'm sure they do, too, but I doubt they're all that common. I know of people who converted from one church or religion to another on their deathbeds, or who reconciled themselves to a church they had neglected, but I can't think of any atheist who converted on his deathbed. Can you?

 

[Katzpur]

I'm sure they do, too, but I doubt they're all that common. I know of people who converted from one church or religion to another on their deathbeds, or who reconciled themselves to a church they had neglected, but I can't think of any atheist who converted on his deathbed. Can you?

You must be talking about famous atheists. Considering the billions of atheists who've died, I think it would be premature to venture a guess.

 

[Revoltingest]

My conjecture is that any opinion on deathbed conversions and their validity or lack thereof is pure conjecture at best.

I also believe that all of us are in for some surprises when it comes to "who gets into heaven and who doesn't."

Personally, I am not going to even TRY to judge the state of someone's immortal soul. Only God knows their heart, their sincerity, and their eternal destination.

What would you do if you arrived at the Pearly Gates, & they were emblazoned with "Welcome to Revoltistan!"

 

[Midnight Pete]

My conjecture is that any opinion on deathbed conversions and their validity or lack thereof is pure conjecture at best.

I also believe that all of us are in for some surprises when it comes to "who gets into heaven and who doesn't."

Personally, I am not going to even TRY to judge the state of someone's immortal soul. Only God knows their heart, their sincerity, and their eternal destination.

Very well said, Kathryn! :yes: