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Death for Apostacy in Islam discussion

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The Prophet pbuh said: “It is not permissible to shed the blood of a Muslim who bears witness that there is no god except Allah and that I am His Messenger, except in one of three cases: a soul for a soul (i.e., in the case of murder); a married man who commits adultery; and one who leaves his religion and splits form the jamaa’ah (main group of Muslims).” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 6878; Muslim, 1676)

If a Muslim apostatizes and meets the conditions of apostasy – example, he is of sound mind, an adult and does that of his own free will – then his blood may be shed with impunity. He is to be executed by the Muslim ruler or by his deputy – such as the qaadi or judge, and he is not to not be washed (after death, in preparation for burial), the funeral prayer is not to be offered for him and he is not to be buried with the Muslims.


Your answer is that Allah swt is the One Who revealed this religion and enjoined it. He is the One Who ruled that the one who enters it and then leaves it is to be executed. This ruling does not come from the Muslims’ ideas or suggestions. As this is the case, then we must follow the ruling of Allah so long as we are content to accept Him as our Lord and God.

You believing in these hadiths is because you worship men over God. No other reason.
 

MyM

Well-Known Member
You believing in these hadiths is because you worship men over God. No other reason.

astaghfirAllah Au'thu billeh.

notice...SAHEEH Bukhari...his ahadith are authentic. Why do you take some over the other or do you denounce him?
 

MyM

Well-Known Member
I'm an ex-Muslim. According to the above post, it would be acceptable for my blood to be "shed with impunity."

Thankfully, my Muslim friends would strongly disagree, and I know enough not to generalize and assume all Muslims have similar beliefs to what you detailed above. But whenever you talk about atheism, atheists, or "anti-Islam bashing," try to ask yourself whether your belief that some of us deserve to be killed merely because we no longer found a specific religion convincing is morally defensible and why any ex-Muslim shouldn't oppose Islamic law if it endorsed that.

Personally, I generally don't believe in the death penalty, and unlike your worldview, mine has no room for supporting the killing of people just for opposing my beliefs. So I hope you can see at some point that you're talking about a diverse group of people (i.e., ex-Muslims) whose lives aren't any less valuable than anyone else just because they left your religion. As things stand, I see no moral difference between the belief you expressed above and support for killing those who, say, don't support a specific ideology or political party.


It's not on me to judge. You can do anything you want. Allah will judge you not me :)
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
astaghfirAllah Au'thu billeh.

notice...SAHEEH Bukhari...his ahadith are authentic. Why do you take some over the other or do you denounce him?

What's your proof. You are attributing something to God that is irrational and contradicts Quran. But even if it didn't contradict Quran, what makes Bukhari hadiths authentic except a few men saying so and everyone agreeing by what a few people said. Is your excuse "we found our forefathers upon a path, and we are following their tracks", but instead "Muslim forefathers and their scholars?".

Muslims will not get way for attributing God falsehood, even if there are a hundred "authentic" hadiths supporting that falsehood. They will go to the fire like people of the book when they decided to attribute God things without proof.

Ilmel Rijaal is not taught by Mohammad (s) but is based on conjecture. It's not a proof of anything.

Very few Muslims in the past till now, don't do this. Very few are true believers who actually fear God and only attribute him what they know and have proof for.

But that's been the track, in the words of Dawood (a) "very few are they" (believers).
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Thankfully, my Muslim friends would strongly disagree, and I know enough not to generalize and assume all Muslims have similar beliefs to what you detailed above.
Thanks for clarifying that, DS. I actually was wondering if that was a majority consensus. That may sound dum to you, but honestly its difficult for me to know. There are so many types and groups of people that its a lot to keep track of when I am mainly interested in my own problems. A misunderstanding can easily lead to deadly force. If one group perceives another is a danger then what follows can be very bad.
 

MyM

Well-Known Member
What's your proof. You are attributing something to God that is irrational and contradicts Quran. But even if it didn't contradict Quran, what makes Bukhari hadiths authentic except a few men saying so and everyone agreeing by what a few people said. Is your excuse "we found our forefathers upon a path, and we are following their tracks", but instead "Muslim forefathers and their scholars?".

Muslims will not get way for attributing God falsehood, even if there are a hundred "authentic" hadiths supporting that falsehood. They will go to the fire like people of the book when they decided to attribute God things without proof.

Ilmel Rijaal is not taught by Mohammad (s) but is based on conjecture. It's not a proof of anything.

Very few Muslims in the past till now, don't do this. Very few are true believers who actually fear God and only attribute him what they know and have proof for.

But that's been the track, in the words of Dawood (a) "very few are they" (believers).


Do you not believe in Bukhari?

You cannot attribute things unto me that I disagree with. I mean you can say all you want, but that doesn't make it true. :)

I quoted a saheeh hadith and you reject it. That's not my problem you reject it or disbelieve in it. :)
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Do you not believe in Bukhari?

You cannot attribute things unto me that I disagree with. I mean you can say all you want, but that doesn't make it true. :)

I quoted a saheeh hadith and you reject it. That's not my problem you reject it or disbelieve in it. :)

It's your problem. And you will be held accountable for it. Sahih and ilmel rijaal will be valueless on day of judgment when asked why you attributed God something without proof.

I testify God allows freedom of religion to all humans including people born into Islam. Of course, there are consequences in the next world for disbelieving in God's Messengers, but freedom God has given.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
In the 4th Chapter of Quran, we read:

What is the matter with you, then, that you have become two parties about the hypocrites, while Allah has made them return (to unbelief) for what they have earned? Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him. 88They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper. 89Except those who reach a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them. 90You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear authority.

These verses show there was a group of hypocrites. The Quran then says if they turn back (ie. leave the religion) to kill them except for those who offer peace or their people is who an alliance is with Muslims. The Muslims at that time were at war with polytheists in general, but there was some still at peace with them.

These verses show even from people who fought Mohammad (s), if those specific people are from people fighting Mohammad (S) but themselves offer peace and say they won't fight Mohammad (s) and his followers, than not to kill them.

There is no compulsion in religion: rectitude has become distinct from error. So one who disavows fake deities and has faith in Allah has held fast to the firmest handle for which there is no breaking; and Allah is all-hearing, all-knowing. (2:256)

This verse was revealed when a companion of Mohammad (s) talked about his kids wanting to remain of their religion and not convert to Islam. This verse was revealed on that occasion.

And the meaning is clear, you shouldn't try to force religion on people and make them come to it while they are averse.

فَذَكِّرْ إِنَّمَا أَنْتَ مُذَكِّرٌ 21 لَسْتَ عَلَيْهِمْ بِمُصَيْطِرٍ

Remind, you are only one who reminds. Not are you an enforcer on them.

(Surah Ghashiya, near the end)


The question, is why do apostacy rules exist, despite this? It's part of the unjust nature scholars and their followers are towards Quran that results in this.

They prefer ahadith over Quran when their scholars emphasize on those hadiths.
 

MyM

Well-Known Member
It's your problem. And you will be held accountable for it.

I testify God allows freedom of religion to all humans including people born into Islam. Of course, there is consequences in the next world for disbelieving in God's Messengers, but freedom God has given.

I said anyone can believe anything that want. I said men have free will to choose or refuse.

It is not for a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter, that they should [thereafter] have any choice about their affair. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger has certainly strayed into clear error. Suratal ahZab 36
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I said anyone can believe anything that want. I said men have free will to choose or refuse.

It is not for a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter, that they should [thereafter] have any choice about their affair. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger has certainly strayed into clear error. Suratal ahZab 36

The issue of attributing God's religion, without proof has always been how nations go astray. You have no proof Ilmel Rijaal and your methodology of Fiqh or your scholars path, is correct. And if you attribute something to God without proof, even if you are right, you will go to hell. We must say regarding God only truth and with proof and evidence.

Hadiths can help, but shouldn't precede Quran. Quran needs hadiths to elaborate but can verify all of the Sunnah.

You choosing to follow blind people because of reputation inspired by Satan himself is up to you.
 

MyM

Well-Known Member
In the 4th Chapter of Quran, we read:

What is the matter with you, then, that you have become two parties about the hypocrites, while Allah has made them return (to unbelief) for what they have earned? Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him. 88They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper. 89Except those who reach a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them. 90You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear authority.

These verses show there was a group of hypocrites. The Quran then says if they turn back (ie. leave the religion) to kill them except for those who offer peace or their people is who an alliance is with Muslims. The Muslims at that time were at war with polytheists in general, but there was some still at peace with them.

These verses show even from people who fought Mohammad (s), if those specific people are from people fighting Mohammad (S) but themselves offer peace and say they won't fight Mohammad (s) and his followers, than not to kill them.

There is no compulsion in religion: rectitude has become distinct from error. So one who disavows fake deities and has faith in Allah has held fast to the firmest handle for which there is no breaking; and Allah is all-hearing, all-knowing. (2:256)

This verse was revealed when a companion of Mohammad (s) talked about his kids wanting to remain of their religion and not convert to Islam. This verse was revealed on that occasion.

And the meaning is clear, you shouldn't try to force religion on people and make them come to it while they are averse.

فَذَكِّرْ إِنَّمَا أَنْتَ مُذَكِّرٌ 21 لَسْتَ عَلَيْهِمْ بِمُصَيْطِرٍ

Remind, you are only one who reminds. Not are you an enforcer on them.

(Surah Ghashiya, near the end)


The question, is why do apostacy rules exist, despite this? It's part of the unjust nature scholars and their followers are towards Quran that results in this.

They prefer ahadith over Quran when their scholars emphasize on those hadiths.


Because you cannot just take the Quran and not Mohammad pbuh. He said it and it was revealed. He is not a liar. :) No one is forcing you to believe it. :)
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Because you cannot just take the Quran and not Mohammad pbuh. He said it and it was revealed. He is not a liar. :) No one is forcing you to believe it. :)

No, Quran has completed refuted Bukhari and your scholars right here. If you don't accept it, you will go to hell, it's up to you. No one is forcing you either. But people who prefer scholars and their "sahih" hadiths over Quran will go to hell for sure.
 

MyM

Well-Known Member
The issue of attributing God's religion, without proof has always been how nations go astray. You have no proof Ilmel Rijaal and your methodology of Fiqh or your scholars path, is correct. And if you attribute something to God without proof, even if you are right, you will go to hell. We must say regarding God only truth and with proof and evidence.

Hadiths can help, but shouldn't precede Quran. Quran needs hadiths to elaborate but can verify all of the Sunnah.

You choosing to follow blind people because of reputation inspired by Satan himself is up to you.

That's what shi'ee believe :)

I believe in the hadith of mohammad pbuh and the Quran and one cannot exist without the other as Allah says to obey the Messenger of Allah. :)
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That's what shi'ee believe :)

I believe in the hadith of mohammad pbuh and the Quran and one cannot exist without the other as Allah says to obey the Messenger of Allah. :)

I believe we need Sunnah as well, but your blind methodology to neither properly reflect over Quran nor Sunah but follow fallible people opinions on what is authentic, will lead you and every Muslim who does so as well, to hell.
 

MyM

Well-Known Member
No, Quran has completed refuted Bukhari and your scholars right here. If you don't accept it, you will go to hell, it's up to you. No one is forcing you either. But people who prefer scholars and their "sahih" hadiths over Quran will go to hell for sure.


They aren't overriding the Quran.

So you are denying Saheeh al Bukhari??
 

MyM

Well-Known Member
I believe we need Sunnah as well, but your blind methodology to neither properly reflect over Quran nor Sunah but follow fallible people opinions on what is authentic, will lead you and every Muslim who does so as well, to hell.

I guess it all boils down to the ol' sunni and shi'ee thing again. We have differences and we both can say each other are on the wrong path and we probably will do again down the line, but we both are Muslims and we both say la illahha illaallah Mohammad rasullah. :)
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
They aren't overriding the Quran.

So you are denying Saheeh al Bukhari??

It contradicts Quranic verses. Let me post again:

In the 4th Chapter of Quran, we read:

What is the matter with you, then, that you have become two parties about the hypocrites, while Allah has made them return (to unbelief) for what they have earned? Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him. 88They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper. 89Except those who reach a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them. 90You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear authority.

These verses show there was a group of hypocrites. The Quran then says if they turn back (ie. leave the religion) to kill them except for those who offer peace or their people is who an alliance is with Muslims. The Muslims at that time were at war with polytheists in general, but there was some still at peace with them.

These verses show even from people who fought Mohammad (s), if those specific people are from people fighting Mohammad (S) but themselves offer peace and say they won't fight Mohammad (s) and his followers, than not to kill them.

There is no compulsion in religion: rectitude has become distinct from error. So one who disavows fake deities and has faith in Allah has held fast to the firmest handle for which there is no breaking; and Allah is all-hearing, all-knowing. (2:256)

This verse was revealed when a companion of Mohammad (s) talked about his kids wanting to remain of their religion and not convert to Islam. This verse was revealed on that occasion.

And the meaning is clear, you shouldn't try to force religion on people and make them come to it while they are averse.

فَذَكِّرْ إِنَّمَا أَنْتَ مُذَكِّرٌ 21 لَسْتَ عَلَيْهِمْ بِمُصَيْطِرٍ

Remind, you are only one who reminds. Not are you an enforcer on them.

(Surah Ghashiya, near the end)


The question, is why do apostacy rules exist, despite this? It's part of the unjust nature scholars and their followers are towards Quran that results in this.

They prefer ahadith over Quran when their scholars emphasize on those hadiths.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I guess it all boils down to the ol' sunni and shi'ee thing again. We have differences and we both can say each other are on the wrong path and we probably will do again down the line, but we both are Muslims and we both say la illahha illaallah Mohammad rasullah. :)

The Kalima means nothing if we attribute God things without knowledge, don't heed the warnings of Quran, and follow tracks of those who were lead astray in the past.
 
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