Death Penalty and Allah's Mercy

[Madhuri]

Thank you F0uad, great detailed response!
My impression over the years has been the the Hadiths make interpreting Islam complicated as some seem to contradict one another and sometimes even the Quran. Why are they trusted in Islam?

What does the Quran alone say about this?

 

[F0uad]

Thank you F0uad, great detailed response!
My impression over the years has been the the Hadiths make interpreting Islam complicated as some seem to contradict one another and sometimes even the Quran. Why are they trusted in Islam?

What does the Quran alone say about this?

Well let me make this even more clear Hadiths are debatable they are not considered to be God's word they are our secondary source they can have errors. However this doesn't mean we can reject them since they describe the interpretations of the Quran, the live of our prophet(saws) and the teachings he left behind for us to follow, we just have to study them closely and if a Hadith contradicts the Quran its automatically not Authentic.

Like i said the Quran doesn't say anything about a death-penalty but Sunni's and Shia's (and other branches) also use Hadiths.

 

[cocolia42]

Allah guides whom He pleases to the truth. Allah tells us in the Qur'an

"And if Allah had willed, He could have made you [of] one religion, but He causes to stray whom He wills and guides whom He wills. And you will surely be questioned about what you used to do." (An-Nahl 16:93)
​

Allah already knows who is going to accept the truth and worship Him, and Allah already knows who will never accept because everything is written before it happens. Allah tells us,

No disaster strikes upon the earth or among yourselves except that it is in a register before We bring it into being - indeed that, for Allah , is easy - (Al-Hadid 57:22)
​

Nothing can happen without Allah's permission, that includes death. Allah tells us,

"And it is not [possible] for one to die except by permission of Allah at a decree determined. And whoever desires the reward of this world - We will give him thereof; and whoever desires the reward of the Hereafter - We will give him thereof. And we will reward the grateful." ('Ali 'Imran 3:145)
​

So we can see that if Allah permits someone to be killed before accepting the truth, after having been shown the truth, surely Allah knows if they would have accepted or not. The person (or people) carrying out the penalty (that was decreed by Allah) would not be preventing salvation. If the person had not been shown the truth, surely Allah is the Most Merciful and Just.

​

 

[Gharib]

Well let me make this even more clear Hadiths are debatable they are not considered to be God's word they are our secondary source they can have errors. However this doesn't mean we can reject them since they describe the interpretations of the Quran, the live of our prophet(saws) and the teachings he left behind for us to follow, we just have to study them closely and if a Hadith contradicts the Quran its automatically not Authentic.

Like i said the Quran doesn't say anything about a death-penalty but Sunni's and Shia's (and other branches) also use Hadiths.

You do know that every word the Prophet spoke in relation to Islam was a revelation and that he didn't speak out of his own desires. Although his speech was a revelation, it is/was different to the Qur'an. No one could understand the Qur'an unless Allah gave someone that knowledge and wisdom, you know that right?

 

[F0uad]

You do know that every word the Prophet spoke in relation to Islam was a revelation and that he didn't speak out of his own desires. Although his speech was a revelation, it is/was different to the Qur'an. No one could understand the Qur'an unless Allah gave someone that knowledge and wisdom, you know that right?

I see no connection between our posts please clarify what you pointed out?

 

[Gharib]

I see no connection between our posts please clarify what you pointed out?

You said the hadith are not Gods word, meaning that they do not hold much ground, when in fact almost for every matter that occurred the Prophet received revelation/guidance from Allah through Jibril which make almost all the words/deeds of the Prophet a form of revelation.

 

[F0uad]

You said the hadith are not Gods word, meaning that they do not hold much ground, when in fact almost for every matter that occurred the Prophet received revelation/guidance from Allah through Jibril which make almost all the words/deeds of the Prophet a form of revelation.

O thanks for pointing out. What i meant to say is that it was not meant to be revelation for the Quran.

 

[Peace]

You do know that every word the Prophet spoke in relation to Islam was a revelation and that he didn't speak out of his own desires. Although his speech was a revelation, it is/was different to the Qur'an. No one could understand the Qur'an unless Allah gave someone that knowledge and wisdom, you know that right?

You said the hadith are not Gods word, meaning that they do not hold much ground, when in fact almost for every matter that occurred the Prophet received revelation/guidance from Allah through Jibril which make almost all the words/deeds of the Prophet a form of revelation.

Jazaka Allah khayran brother Gharib, I totally agree with you, for our Prophet peace be upon him never spoke out whim. The Hadith is also a revelation but are expressed by the words of the Prophet pbuh.

Madhuri -- Please note that there are authentic Hadith and there are fabricated ones. The Hadith were checked by early scholars of Islam for compatibility with the Quran and the veracity of the chain of reporters.

The Importance of Hadith in Islam

 

[F0uad]

Jazaka Allah khayran brother Gharib, I totally agree with you, for our Prophet peace be upon him never spoke out whim. The Hadith is also a revelation but are expressed by the words of the Prophet pbuh.

Madhuri -- Please note that there are authentic Hadith and there are fabricated ones. The Hadith were checked by early scholars of Islam for compatibility with the Quran and the veracity of the chain of reporters.

The Importance of Hadith in Islam

I didn't fully understand your last post as Authentic hadiths being fabricated?

 

[Peace]

I didn't fully understand your last post as Authentic hadiths being fabricated?

I didn't say that authentic hadiths are fabricated. I said that there are authentic Hadith and there are fabricated ones. I mean there fake ones that are not the saying of our Prophet peace be upon him.

 

[Madhuri]

The Importance of Hadith in Islam

I have some questions about the contents of this article.

The first thing, it says Sunnah is religious duties that are optional. It seems to say that Hadiths are part of the Sunnahs. So the instructions of Hadith then are optional? Have I misunderstood?

Secondly, it says that the Quran is impossible to understand without the Hadiths. But I thought that Muslims believe the Quran is perfect even alone. Why would it be impossible to understand on its own? Did God instruct Mohammad to have the Hadiths written also because the Quran is impossible to understand? Or is it just lucky that some men decided to write down some of the things that Mohammad said?

(I don't have a logical problem with this idea, only that it is the first I have heard about it)

My impression has been that Islam is so important for Muslims because previous religions have been corrupted over time and their scriptures are not trustworthy. But Quran cannot be corrupted and therefore it is the only scripture worth trusting. But since there are Hadiths which show fabrication, as has been mentioned in this thread and others, how do you know to trust any Hadith? How can one Hadith be completely trusted if we know that some are corrupt?

 

[Rational_Mind]

I have some questions about the contents of this article.

The first thing, it says Sunnah is religious duties that are optional. It seems to say that Hadiths are part of the Sunnahs. So the instructions of Hadith then are optional? Have I misunderstood?

Secondly, it says that the Quran is impossible to understand without the Hadiths. But I thought that Muslims believe the Quran is perfect even alone. Why would it be impossible to understand on its own? Did God instruct Mohammad to have the Hadiths written also because the Quran is impossible to understand? Or is it just lucky that some men decided to write down some of the things that Mohammad said?

(I don't have a logical problem with this idea, only that it is the first I have heard about it)

My impression has been that Islam is so important for Muslims because previous religions have been corrupted over time and their scriptures are not trustworthy. But Quran cannot be corrupted and therefore it is the only scripture worth trusting. But since there are Hadiths which show fabrication, as has been mentioned in this thread and others, how do you know to trust any Hadith? How can one Hadith be completely trusted if we know that some are corrupt?

It is impossible to understand the Qur'an without reference to the Hadith; and it is impossible to explain a hadith without relating it to the Qur'an.

My view is different as an Ahmadi Muslim. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Although in this case, there is a logical fallacy in the argument (in quotes above).

Premise 1: To understand the Quran you need Hadith
Premise 2: To understand Hadith you need the Quran

Since premise 1 requires premise 2, and premise 2 requires premise 1, we have entered a circular argument.

To understand Quran you need Hadith, to understand Hadith you need Quran. But since you don't understand one you cannot understand the other. Hence it is stating that understanding Quran or Hadith is impossible.

I am guessing that is not what the author intended to say. I hope the intent was to say, as I believe, that the Quran could not have been sent without sending the Holy Prophet (saw). His teachings and example allow us to be spiritually capable of understanding the Holy Quran. The Quran says it reveals itself to the righteous and pure of heart. At the coming of the Holy Prophet (saw) the people were neither righteous nor pure of heart. Secondarily Holy Prophet (saw) served as an example of the Holy Quran in practice, he was in this sense, the Holy Quran personified (which the Quran has basically stated I believe multiple times, this was also the view of Hadhrat Fatima (ra), his wife) .

 

[islam abduallah]

I have some questions about the contents of this article.

The first thing, it says Sunnah is religious duties that are optional. It seems to say that Hadiths are part of the Sunnahs. So the instructions of Hadith then are optional? Have I misunderstood?

i think i could answer that as i'm an arab, the word sunna has two meanings, sometimes we said it's mentioned in the sunna to do ... here the word sunnah means hadith and so it maybe optional or obligation, and sometimes we say it's sunna to do ... that means it's optional to do
so sunna could be said about hadith and about some optional acts
hadith could contain obligations or optional acts,
observe the difference
you got it?

Secondly, it says that the Quran is impossible to understand without the Hadiths. But I thought that Muslims believe the Quran is perfect even alone. Why would it be impossible to understand on its own? Did God instruct Mohammad to have the Hadiths written also because the Quran is impossible to understand? Or is it just lucky that some men decided to write down some of the things that Mohammad said?

there's a sect called quranists who denied hadith compleltly
i'm sunni, so i'll answer that from sunni point of view

first nobody could understand the quran as Allah means, i mean you can't get 100% what Allah means as there are many meanings that we are discovering by time and by science which isn't existing in the past but Allah knows about it and he put it as signs and challenges for the further generations

so nobody can claim that he's fully what allah wills to say of a certain verse
second if you read the quran you will understand it, most of ppl who reverts to islam is via reading quran only but to implement it you need sunna or hadith i mean
for example Allah ordered us to pay charity in the quran this is a general headline but how much i should be? is it annually or monthly? hadith is explaining that
we are ordered to pray in the quran, but what's the form of praying? what i would recite? sunna or hadith answered that
hope it's clear
(I don't have a logical problem with this idea, only that it is the first I have heard about it)

My impression has been that Islam is so important for Muslims because previous religions have been corrupted over time and their scriptures are not trustworthy. But Quran cannot be corrupted and therefore it is the only scripture worth trusting. But since there are Hadiths which show fabrication, as has been mentioned in this thread and others, how do you know to trust any Hadith? How can one Hadith be completely trusted if we know that some are corrupt?

the hadith could be rejected for many reasons, the easiest one if it's contradicted with a verse of the quran, so it's obvious it's not valid one
second way which is the most complicated one is to look to the chain of persons who narrated the hadith from Mohamed till who listener "who collected the hadith in one book like Imam Muslim or Bukhari" so they look at the chain for example i born in 1984 so if i say that "anwar sadat told me ..." then they will see i'm born in 1984 and anwar sadat died on 1981 so it's impossible that i met him, so i'm liar and so all of hadith i narrated is rejected
another example let's suppose there's no internet, or phones as previously so i said Madhuri told me... then they will see i'm Egyptian and you are from Australlia "i think" so does Madhuri visited Egypt" yes when? when Islam was in Mecca so they didn't meet each other so islam is liar an all of any hadith i'll narrate will be rejected

it's not simple as that i'm just giving you examples to get it