Debate a Muslim

[Aupmanyav]

That is Hindi and other Indian languages. Buddha is considered by many Hindus as the ninth avatara of Lord Vishnu. Buddha was the among the wisest of his time. Among many things that I learnt from him was what he said in "Kesamutti Sutta". Kesamutti (Release from a hold on the hair - also known as 'Kalama Sutta'):

The Kesamutti Sutta states (Pali expression in parentheses):

"Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing (anussava),
nor upon tradition (paramparā),
nor upon rumor (itikirā),
nor upon what is in a scripture (piṭaka-sampadāna)
nor upon surmise (takka-hetu),
nor upon an axiom (naya-hetu),
nor upon specious reasoning (ākāra-parivitakka),
nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over (diṭṭhi-nijjhān-akkh-antiyā),
nor upon another's seeming ability (bhabba-rūpatāya),
nor upon the consideration, The monk is our teacher (samaṇo no garū)
Kalamas, when you yourselves know: "These things are good; these things are not blamable; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness," enter on and abide in them."

In Simple English, it means to take these things with a grain of salt:
Oral history, Tradition, News sources, Scriptures, Suppositional reasoning, Philosophical dogmatism, Common sense, One's own opinions, Experts, Authorities or one's own teacher

Yeah, Buddhism tells us to have faith in Buddha (Buddham sharanam Gacchami), but I do not go by faith, only by analysis.

 

[Harel13]

- I'm not sure what you getting at with this. A case can be made for the written Torah, but not the oral Torah. The majority opinion among Muslim scholars, led by Ibn Hazm, is that the alteration in the Torah is textual, whereas the minority, led by Tabari, claim the alteration is not textual, rather interpretational.

I was referring just to the written Torah.
So who do you go with - Ibn Hazm or Tabari?

 

[Shakeel]

And they shall say to their skins: Why have you borne witness against us? They shall say: Allah Who makes everything speak has made us speak, and He created you at first, and to Him you shall be brought back.

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

The fact that Allah can make anything speak does not tell of intelligence. If my skin was so intelligent it could speak on its own, it should be speaking right now. What if I donate an organ - will it be confused with its testimony on the day of judgment?

 

[viole]

- Strange indeed, given you're invading their countries, bombing their people, & pillaging their wealth... & on top of all this, imposing the most brutal & disgusting regime on them while convincing them of the great freedoms they are having ad nauseam. If it wasn't for propaganda, top-notch PR & dominance, no one would buy this BS, –which most don't indeed in much of the rest of the world.

We are neutral. I am also Swede. Neutral, too. We are not invading no one. It is people of your religion who are invading us.

- You're lying. You actually are, just not in a decent way. Bottom line, it's all about degeneracy. Wherever there is degeneracy you adore it, wherever there is decency you abhor it.

I can guarantee you that it is forbidden to marry 10 years old here. In Sweden, too. But if you believe otherwise, fine. I understand. If someone believes that a meteorite fallen on the desert is a stone sent by God, or that prophets get cab services to Heaven in the form of winged horses, he is probably enabled to believe everything.

- As expected from someone like you, vile & disgusting behavior. You don't disappoint. Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) is the greatest human being in history, he is adored & emulated by billions of Muslims, in their everyday lives. Thanks to this man you have rights today. He taught justice & mercy & all virtues, spread peace & prosperity to the world, he elevated women to the highest degree & erased racism.
You pitiable comments are pebbles on a mountain range. What did you do for humanity? Nothing except hate & denigration of other human beings.

Thanks to your prophet, there are some places in Malmö, Sweden, where I cannot walk freely unless I dress like Batman.

- As to your poor attempt, an abject failure. Pedophilia is defined as primary or exclusive sexual attraction to prepubescent children. Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) waited for Aisha to reach maturity at 10 to marry her (3 years after betrothal).

10?

And by the way, your link about reaching maturity points to a prescription of my doctor. Or it looks like one.

As to your Christian claim, the Bible does indeed prescribe pedophilia: "And now, slay every male among the infants, indeed, slay every woman knowing a man by the lying of a male, and all the infants among the women who have not known the lying of a male you have kept alive for yourselves." (Numbers 13:17-18)

You don't pay attention. Those men from the Bible are not prophets. My claim was about prophets.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Marcion]

- For sustenance, the same with plants. It's prohibited in Sharia to take animals as target for no just cause, i.e. for food. It's prohibited to kill an animal for clothing, unless you will eat it & use its skin. Initially, since the Earth (& all creation) belongs to Allah, any human exercises of rights on the Earth is transgressive, unless by Allah's permission. That's why we have to slaughter our animals in the name of Allah, as a permission from Allah to take their lives for our own sustenance.

- Animal wellbeing is paramount in Sharia, as enjoined by the Prophet (pbuh):

• "There is a reward for serving any animate (living being)."
• "There is no person who kills a small bird or anything larger for no just cause, but Allah, the Mighty and Sublime, will ask him about it –it will beseech Allah on the Day of Judgment saying: "O Lord, so and so killed me for no just cause".– "[just cause] is that you slaughter it and eat it, and do not cut off its head and throw it aside."
• "Do not take any living creature as a target."
• "There was a dog moving around a well whom thirst would have killed, an Israeli prostitute saw it and took off her shoe and watered it. So Allah forgave her because of that good deed."
• "A woman was punished and put in Hell because of a cat which she had kept locked till it died of hunger. She did not allow it either to eat or drink as it was confined, nor did she free it so that it might eat the vermin of the earth."
• "A doctor consulted the Prophet about extracting medicine from a frog but he prohibited killing it"
• "When the Prophet marched in his army from al-Araj in the direction of Mecca, he saw a ***** (on the way) whining over its puppies, while they were around her suckling. He commanded one of his men called Ja'il Ibn Suraq'a to stay by its side and guard it so that none of the army would harm it and it puppies"

- No. Sharia seeks to preserve the 6 sacred rights: faith, life, reason, family, property, & honor. Penalties (Hudud) are set to stop capital transgressions against these sacred rights. For instance, transgression against Life is punishable according to "soul for a soul" principle. However, Hudud occupy an insignificant part of the whole of Sharia. As I happen to mention this in a previous post, it's relevant here as well, when you hear Sharia Law it actually refers to Fiqh legal tradition [we don't actually use the term Sharia Law in Arabic at all, that's a western convention], Fiqh branches out in 8 main disciplines:

1. Fiqh Usuli (fundamental jrsprd) = legislation theory – ethical theory – legal theory – constitutional jrsprd – legal maxims...
2. Fiqh Madhhabi (scholastic jrsprd) = Hanafi jrsprd – Maliki jrsprd – Shafi'i jrsprd – Hanbali jrsprd – & others...
3. Fiqh 'Am (general jrsprd) = debate science – topical jrsprd – consensual jrsprd – differential jrsprd comparative jrsprd...
4. Fiqh al-Furu' (branches of jrsprd) = of worship – of habits – of rights – of contracts – of property – of transactions – of relations – of care – of wills – of emancipation – of commerce – of trust – of companies, of endowments...
5. Fiqh al-Qadaa (judiciary jurisprudence) = procedural jrsprd – lawsuit jrsprd– dispute jrsprd – proof jrsprd – criminal jrsprd – Penal jurisprudence...
6. Fiqh as-Siyasa (political jrsprd) = political theory – administrative pltcs – judiciary politics (pltcs) – fiscal pltcs – public good pltcs – defense pltcs – international pltcs – social pltcs...
7. Fiqh al-Fatawa (advisory jrsprd) = case jrsprd – methods of jrsprd – mutfi decorum...
8. Tarikh at-Tashri' (history of jrsprd) = origins of jrsprd – developpment of jrsprd – biographies of jurists – of jurisprudents – of judges – of political theorists –

>>> Penal Jurisprudence (Uqubat), as part of the al-Qadaa tradition, in itself branches out into:

• Diyat (indemnities) = blood-money, wound indemnity...
• Qisas (retributions) = retributions, chastisements, atonements...
• Hubus (isolations) = restraint, confinement, imprisonment, exile...
• Taghrimat (damages) = compensations, fines, forfeits...
• Ta'zirat (discretionary) = discretionary rulings by the judge...
• Hudud (penalties) = what you're probably talking about. <<<< THIS.

- It's a direction of prayer, it's not the direction of Allah! Long story, but we believe the Kaaba is in tandem with Al-Bayt Al-Maamur –a sort of another Kaaba in the Heaven, through which our souls ascend to Heaven.


- Prayer is a matter of ritual worship. We don't do it to exercise, we do it to worship as we are shown.


- This is also a long story. To be brief, I'm gunna quote something I said here earlier:
We believe our souls established a covenan ( Ahd) with Allah to worship only Him. Then brought to this life as delegates ((Khilafa) to Allah in this Earthly domain to settle, cultivate the land & prosper (Istimar). In this life our yearning for God is actually the memory of our covenant, as if something we miss we are incomplete without. This memory is our innate state of being (Fitrah), which manifests in our faculty to seek the divine & recognize it when we see it. This faculty is reason (Aql), gift entrusted to us. We are responsible (Taklif) to uphold that trust (Amana) by preserving our innate state of being (Fitrah) -thus our covenant- until we return to Allah again after death. As delegates of Allah on the Earth, we exercise our rights with the boundaries which Allah has set for us, according to 3 levels of rights:

• Rights of Allah, worship & all that it entails.
• Rights of the self, sincere pursuit of truth & self-discipline.
• Rights of His creatures, good dealings towards creatures of Allah.

- From this respect, the Five Pillars of Islam epitomizes these rights:

1. Shahada – Testimony = this signifies our renewal of covenant with Allah so as to come under His boundaries.
2. Salat – Prayer = this epitomizes the Right of Allah, an obligation to Allah to worship Him alone.
3. Sawm – Fasting = this epitomizes the Right of the self, by self-disciplining & elevating the self.
4. Zakat – Charity = this epitomizes the Right to His creatures, by giving out of your own wealth to the less fortunate, showing compassion spreading love.
5. Hajj – Pilgrimage = this signifies the return back to Allah after fulfillment of covenant, it's a sort of pre-reeactement of the Day of Judgement where all are equal in the eyes of Allah, all dressing the same in a white cloth, as we will be dressed upon death.

Thank you very much indeed for your detailed and useful replies.
They do explain a lot but don't take away my objections to the practices that I questioned.

As to the muslim type of prayer not being an exercise, there is no need to move your head to each side when addressing Allah nor is it needed to bend over or move from a standing position to one of kneeling.
These do however resemble a primitive type of yoga exercise (asana).

It seems that the one who developed or thought up this type of ritual combined the prostration to God in Yoga with a Yogic asana and with directing the mind towards Allah through words.
A normal prostration would be with the body fully on the floor (not with bottoms up) with arms and legs outstretched. Ladies however may do a half prostration but not with their bottoms up. This goes according to the science of mudra which describes particular effects on the human mind by different movements or positions of the body.

They say that many of the Koranic teachings were also taken from Yoga or Tantra philosophy.
But I haven't studied the Koran well enough to be able to confirm this.

 

[Link]

The fact that Allah can make anything speak does not tell of intelligence. If my skin was so intelligent it could speak on its own, it should be speaking right now. What if I donate an organ - will it be confused with its testimony on the day of judgment?

The verse shows everything including your organs have intelligence. It takes intelligence to speak and testify. It takes intelligence to have remembered your deeds.

 

[Shakeel]

The verse shows everything including your organs have intelligence. It takes intelligence to speak and testify. It takes intelligence to have remembered your deeds.

And Christians reason it would take divinity for Jesus (peace be upon him) to heal the blind.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

- Do you have a problem with me or something...?

Your ideas, yes. If you feel your ideas to be an intrinsic part of "you," then I suppose I have a problem with "you" as well.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Imam al-Ghazali of course. It would a long story to explain, but al-Ghazali didn't just master his mind, he also mastered his self.

"Of all the stars that have names, two-thirds of them have Arabic names. While the constellations are Greek and Roman, the stars' names are Arabic. How does this happen?

"How do you get stars named with Arabic names? It happens because there was this particularly fertile period - this 300 year period [about 800-1100 AD] - when the intellectual center of the world was Baghdad. It was completely open to all visitors - all travelers. They were all there exchanging ideas, and it was that period where we had advances in engineering, biology, medicine, and mathematics. Our numerals are called Arabic numerals! They created a whole field called algebra — an Arabic word. All of this is traceable to this 300 year period. So they had naming rights.

“Ibn al-Hazen (965-1040 AD) was the first person ever to set down the rules of science. He created an error-correcting mechanism, a systematic and relentless way to sift out misconceptions in our thinking. ‘Finding truth is difficult and the road to it is rough. As seekers after truth, you will be wise to withhold judgment and not simply put your trust in the writings of the ancients. You must question and critically examine those writings from every side. You must submit only to argument and experiment and not to the sayings of any person. For every human being is vulnerable to all kinds of imperfection. As seekers after truth, we must also suspect and question our own ideas as we perform our investigations, to avoid falling into prejudice or careless thinking. Take this course, and truth will be revealed to you.”

“And then, something happened. The 12th century brought the influence of the scholar al-Ghazali (1058-1111 AD), and out of his work you get the philosophy that mathematics is the work of the devil. Nothing good can come of that philosophy. With that, combined with other sort-of philosophical codifications of what Islam was and would become, the entire intellectual foundation of that enterprise collapsed and it has not recovered since” - Neil DeGrasse Tyson.

 

[Link]

And Christians reason it would take divinity for Jesus (peace be upon him) to heal the blind.

What does this have to do with our discussion?

But okay, let's change the topic:

If God gave an Angel power such that the whole universe and we are just tiny pieces in his hand, would it make that Angel a god? Because according to some hadiths, the Angel of death has such power and immensity.

There are only 19 Angels responsible over hell, this means they have immense power, are they gods to you because they have immense power to be so few in number?

God is beyond creation, doesn't matter how much power and control he gives to his creation, they are nothing compared to him. Miracles are proofs of those doing them because the power has to be directly sustained and given by God, true, but also, the fact he wouldn't trust an evil doer with such power and would not put us at the mercy of an evil person with that much power.

 

[Shakeel]

What does this have to do with our discussion?

It is your reasoning applied in another context. It is God who makes them speak, they cannot speak themselves except on the day of judgement when God makes them speak.

 

[Link]

It is your reasoning applied in another context. It is God who makes them speak, they cannot speak themselves except on the day of judgement when God makes them speak.

The verse says "who made everything speak". The day of judgment is a day when the veil is removed from people and people see reality as it truly was. One of things the disbelievers were heedless to, was the fact God made everything speak and that their skins themselves can speak to them and in this world had perception to witness their deeds.

You are being obtuse.

 

[Link]

Isa (a) being able to heal the blind doesn't prove him to be a god, because God gave him such power by his permission and he still incomparable to the absolute being which all life stems from even if such power didn't come from God.

 

[Link]

It is your reasoning applied in another context.

My reasoning and point of dispute, was that according to Quran, everything has perception and glorifies God and hence has intelligence. I have proven God has made everything speak according to Quran and this goes with the verses that everything glorifies God and mountains glorifying God with Dawood (a) as a sign and miracle as well.

 

[Link]

And this is to no surprise as physical existence is by nature of the duality between spiritual and physical, impossible. Only one type of existence is possible, and it's spiritual type.

 

[oldbadger]

So which muslim does not believe "Muhammad knew enough law, enough theology enough guidance for his own"? Can you pinpoint a school of thought who claim that and where?

.....all those who needed to write Islamic law, theology and guidance?

 

[firedragon]

.....all those who needed to write Islamic law, theology and guidance?

They said Muhammed didnt know theology? Who, in which book?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

You're still here! Dude, you're in a burning ship. In the US, contractual marriage involves some 600k "children", & non-contractual marriage (sexual relationship) implicates some 21 million "children" (the situation is worse in Europe)! Either you're ok with this, in which case be in your merry way, you are being a hypocrite. Or, you're not ok with this, in which case be in your merry way just the same, concern yourself with your own before coming to me, you're being a hypocrite. Thank you, Mr. in burning ship.

Apparently another way to fight child marriage is to keep Muslims out of the country, as you've shown that Islam supports this and you're not the only one.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

You don't disappoint. Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) is the greatest human being in history, he is adored & emulated by billions of Muslims, in their everyday lives. Thanks to this man you have rights today. He taught justice & mercy & all virtues, spread peace & prosperity to the world, he elevated women to the highest degree & erased racism.

Lmao, that is the most hilarious thing I've read recently. Women's rights in the West have nothing at all to do with Mohammad. The West kicked you guys out or stopped you from invading centuries ago, but since we're allowing you people to flood our countries now (thanks to globalist traitors), European women have suffered a loss of safety and rights. So way to go. You finally got to have an impact on Western rights.

 

[Shakeel]

Lmao, that is the most hilarious thing I've read recently. Women's rights in the West have nothing at all to do with Mohammad. The West kicked you guys out or stopped you from invading centuries ago, but since we're allowing you people to flood our countries now (thanks to globalist traitors), European women have suffered a loss of safety and rights. So way to go. You finally got to have an impact on Western rights.

well it did take the west a long time to give women the rights Muslims had from the time on the Prophet Muhammad (ﷺ), if that's what you mean.

Which European women are you talking about?