Debate a Muslim

[firedragon]

You know, you spend an awful lot of time telling me why I'm wrong, and yet you do virtually nothing to tell me what is right.

Tiberius, that's because you make statements, not ask questions.

Nevertheless, so tell me, what should I tell you about?

 

[oldbadger]

-

• Homosexual tendencies are acquired – from cultural awareness & active obsession. I found Imam Ibn Taymyyah positing this view; That you don't find the practice among societies which do not have a cultural awareness of it primitively. It does not occur to males or females among each other that something desirable is to be had. Similarly, societies where incest is norm, desire is expected, but in those where this awareness is non-existent so is the desire. Then, among societies in which homosexual awareness exists, the desire is driven by obsession (addiction). Those who indulge in this awareness will eventually acquire an appreciation for it with obsession.

I did read all of the above post, but found no mentions of The Quran, The Bible, or Muhammad........ seems to me as if Islam has left you far behind.

I don't know how you harvested the above ideas, Ghazaly, but LGBT is a natural condition, it occurs in Nature, and even animals can be attracted to LGBT lifestyles.

For a couple of example, I've read that Lesbian Seagulls and Gay Penguins have been observed, but I personally have observed Lovelace the Drake Carolina Duck. Although a female follows him everywhere and seeks his attentions he will not 'tread' her, nor any other females. Every spring he collects golf balls from all around our garden, makes a hollow, and sits those golf balls for a month. A perfectly natural trans=sexual tendency, Ghazaly, simply natural.

The laws of the Old Testament were written to produce a strong, healthy, cohesive, successful people. And law broken reduced this through sickness etc.... Sin led to sickness of various kinds and not to any kind of hell. I think you've lost the thread through too much spin.

 

[Shakeel]

Also, sihaq (lesbian act) is categorically different from liwat (sodomy) in Sharia, for the former is not penalized albeit prohibited while the later is penalized

It may be, just not by hadd punishment.

 

[Meow Mix]

It may be, just not by hadd punishment.

Can you expound on what this means?

Edit: To clarify, I was able to google hadd punishment; I'm curious what the punishment for sihaq would entail, and why it's different from the punishment for liwat.

 

[Tiberius]

Tiberius, that's because you make statements, not ask questions.

Nevertheless, so tell me, what should I tell you about?

And it doesn't occur to you to say, "Hey, that statement was based on a faulty premise, here's the correct premise"?

You aren't interested in discussion. You just want to have a go at people who disagree with you.

 

[firedragon]

And it doesn't occur to you to say, "Hey, that statement was based on a faulty premise, here's the correct premise"?

You aren't interested in discussion. You just want to have a go at people who disagree with you.

Once I clarify from you what you meant, I will correct you. You were getting angry for me seeking your clarification to a term I never used. Thus, I was only showing you that your understanding of what I said is completely misread. If you show some humility, only then one could have a discussion. Disagreeing you can do anytime, but only after listening and analysing what was said.

 

[Shakeel]

Can you expound on what this means?

Edit: To clarify, I was able to google hadd punishment; I'm curious what the punishment for sihaq would entail, and why it's different from the punishment for liwat.

There is no fixed punishment for lesbian sex. It is up to the judge to decide on the best punishment. It could be, for instance, imprisonment, banishment, fine or flogging.

It is different from the punishment to sodomy because there is no fixed punishment for it while there is for sodomy. There is no intercourse between two women.
The punishment for lesbianism - Islam Question & Answer

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I appreciate it. I have to remind myself often that I'm 37 and that's real close to the big 4-0. It's surreal sometimes how easy it is to just forget about time, I still feel like I'm in my 20's.

You still look like you're in your 20's also.
I honestly fell over when you said "37"

 

[Meow Mix]

There is no fixed punishment for lesbian sex. It is up to the judge to decide on the best punishment. It could be, for instance, imprisonment, banishment, fine or flogging.

It is different from the punishment to sodomy because there is no fixed punishment for it while there is for sodomy. There is no intercourse between two women.
The punishment for lesbianism - Islam Question & Answer

Thanks for the info.

 

[Meow Mix]

You still look like you're in your 20's also.
I honestly fell over when you said "37"

Wow, thanks! To be fair, the avatar you commented on yesterday was probably 6-8 years old. This one's recent though. I will definitely accept it. Been feeling like I don't want to turn 40, but I imagine it will be as harmless as turning 30 was.

 

[Link]

Given a chain of events there are three possibilities:

1) Some finite chain of events leading back to a necessary cause (it has to be necessary, otherwise it itself would require an explanation). But this has a problem: necessary causes have necessary effects; so any events explained by a necessary cause are themselves necessary, and there would be no contingency. This would be a fatalistic universe not unlike the universe of Spinoza.

2) Some infinite chain of events with an infinite chain of causes. Here, too, there is a problem with contingency: why that chain and not some other chain?

3) Some chain of events leading back to an uncaused cause, true randomness.

Only one effect in the chain needs to be caused by uncaused cause. There can be more, but only one needs it.

This is true even without time. Take time out, and have infinite chain of things being pushed down with each saying I won't push down unless pushed down by another, the chain needs to a pusher that doesn't have that condition. Otherwise, it's impossible.

 

[Link]

And the refutation that it's applying parts to the whole (classical atheistic or philosophical response) is not coherent, since, it's by induction, not applying parts to the whole.

 

[Link]

We can say no matter what size, the whole chain needs uncaused cause, whether infinite or finite, is proven by induction, not by applying parts to the whole. So the classical response to the classical Kalam argument, fails IMHO.

 

[Ghazaly]

I agree to that, but how does it prove that the cause is what is professed as Allah?

- Rationally, the cause is a necessary being –for otherwise it itself is an event, which can only be singular. Since it's different from the world, then it's transcendent. Since it's the cause of all the world, then it's absolute. Hence, the singular absolute necessary transcendent being, defined as God. – Scripturally, Allah is defined as singular absolute necessary transcendent being, from Quran surah 112:

1. Say: He is Allah, the One and Only | – singular
2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute | – absolute
3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten | – necessary
4. And there is none like unto Him | – transcendent

"God of the gaps is a theological perspective in which gaps in scientific knowledge are taken to be evidence or proof of God's existence." - Wikipedia

- Wut?! This has nothing to do with that...! Besides "god of the gaps" is a bunch of. nonsense.

But you ain't now!
See ya later...........

- You first. Bye!

I look forward to it. As I said, to me words of light and insight from the Prophet (s) should not be subject to human made systems that have no basis. I believe Ilmel Rijaal has no basis in Quran. It's a cheap way to avoid insights, proofs and light in Quran - that the hadiths are meant to give to people.

"O those who believe, if a sinful person brings you a report, verify its correctness, lest you harm a people out of ignorance then become remorseful on what you did." (49:6)

- Your argument is circular. How do you know the Quran is true without Ilam Rijal?

Yep. Thats known by every muslim. Just so that you dont have to repeat this, Ijab means offer. Qabool means acceptance.
The question I asked is "So who is doing the ajwizah and who is doing the taqbal?" Do you understand the question?

- Your response is backwards. You answered the part which I already stated by repeating the same thing, & answered the question that I asked but repeating the same question!

 

[firedragon]

- Your response is backwards. You answered the part which I already stated by repeating the same thing, & answered the question that I asked but repeating the same question!

So who is doing the ajwizah and who is doing the taqbal?" Do you understand the question?

 

[Ghazaly]

I did read all of the above post, but found no mentions of The Quran, The Bible, or Muhammad........ seems to me as if Islam has left you far behind.

- You're already back! Sharia is wholly from the Quran & Prophet Muhammed (pbuh). I don't have to quote the Quran or the Prophet (pbuh) every time I state something that relates to Sharia.

I don't know how you harvested the above ideas, Ghazaly, but LGBT is a natural condition, it occurs in Nature, and even animals can be attracted to LGBT lifestyles.
For a couple of example, I've read that Lesbian Seagulls and Gay Penguins have been observed, but I personally have observed Lovelace the Drake Carolina Duck. Although a female follows him everywhere and seeks his attentions he will not 'tread' her, nor any other females. Every spring he collects golf balls from all around our garden, makes a hollow, and sits those golf balls for a month. A perfectly natural trans=sexual tendency, Ghazaly, simply natural.

- Since this is the lifestyle you're aspiring to, while you're at it, get your birthday suit, grow some feathers & get flying.

The laws of the Old Testament were written to produce a strong, healthy, cohesive, successful people. And law broken reduced this through sickness etc.... Sin led to sickness of various kinds and not to any kind of hell. I think you've lost the thread through too much spin.

- I honestly don't understand any of this.

I believe Islam can never save a person from sin. The reality is that no-one is capable of eliminating sin in his life. That is why it is necessary for Jesus to save a person from sin because He can do what you can't.

- You're entitled to believe what your conviction leads you. We don't subscribe to those beliefs.

It may be, just not by hadd punishment.

- If you mean Ta'zeer, any public sin can conceivably be punishable or regulated by Ta'zeer or Hisba. How is that relevant here?

 

[Ghazaly]

So who is doing the ajwizah and who is doing the taqbal?" Do you understand the question?

- Clearly you don't understand it yourself.

 

[firedragon]

- Clearly you don't understand it yourself.

Lool. If you dont know, its perfectly fine. Just say so honestly.

No problem. Since you dont know I will tell you in English. I only said it in arabic because you quoted arabic words.

Taqbal is the action of acceptance. Ajwizah is the act of offering.

Now that is clear, can you please humbly explain who is doing these actions?

 

[Ghazaly]

Lool. If you dont know, its perfectly fine. Just say so honestly.
No problem. Since you dont know I will tell you in English. I only said it in arabic because you quoted arabic words. Taqbal is the action of acceptance. Ajwizah is the act of offering.

- No such thing in Arabic. Where are you from? Qubul is the action of acceptance, & Ijab is the action of offering in Arabic.

Now that is clear, can you please humbly explain who is doing these actions?

- Qubul wa Ijab is a principle (rukn) in 'Uqud (contracts) in Sharia.

 

[Link]

@Ghazaly that verse was revealed at a companion who was not a fasiq. So I think we don’t have to know if the person is a fasiq or not to investigate. It’s not saying only investigate if he is a fasiq.