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Debate about Christianity (Looking for someone to argue against it)

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
we are being taught to give a defense of the faith
Agnostic atheist here.

I don't think I can help you as I have no questions about your faith and there is nothing about it that I want or need you to defend.

Maybe you have some questions about atheistic humanism, my worldview. Are you taught why and how that worldview differs from yours in seminary? I'm not asking you to go off topic and discuss that here, just whether you know what such a person believes and why.
just because Copernicus needed to argue for heliocentrism, doesn't mean heliocentrism was false.
Agreed, but is that relevant? Whereas as you noted, Copernicus was eventually understood to be correct, Christians have been arguing on behalf of their religion for two millennia and haven't moved the needle at all regarding their extraordinary claims.
 

Balthazzar

N. Germanic Descent
Hey, thank you for the response!
So, the person who dialogues with me can be a Christian if he or she holds a different approach to Christianity and doubts the system of doctrine that I believe in. I would be arguing for Christianity according to the system of doctrine set forth in the Westminster Confession of Faith, a Reformed and theologically conservative view of Christianity.
Also, yes, I would be arguing for this approach to Christianity (not for God himself), but I believe this system of doctrine most accurately summarizes what God has revealed in Scripture. If you'd like to engage in a discussion about this which would total around 3000 words, let me know! You can lead the conversation, raise any objections to Reformed theology, and ask any questions you want!

Ok, so the system of doctrine I will assume involves some type of mechanics in how your reformed theological approach operates and functions, to which I may or may not take issue with. I was just thinking about the possible ramifications if I were to get involved in this discussion with the likes of a Vatican enforced institution, to which I decided it best to decline based on how my involvement might interfere with the way the entity needs to operate for the greater good. With that stated, thank you for the invite, but I will decline for now. I might be interested in reading the final presentation of the exchange, if that's permissible.
 
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Dimi95

Прaвославие!
Hey, thank you for the response!
So, the person who dialogues with me can be a Christian if he or she holds a different approach to Christianity and doubts the system of doctrine that I believe in. I would be arguing for Christianity according to the system of doctrine set forth in the Westminster Confession of Faith, a Reformed and theologically conservative view of Christianity.
Also, yes, I would be arguing for this approach to Christianity (not for God himself), but I believe this system of doctrine most accurately summarizes what God has revealed in Scripture. If you'd like to engage in a discussion about this which would total around 3000 words, let me know! You can lead the conversation, raise any objections to Reformed theology, and ask any questions you want!
Orthodox maybe?
I don't want to lead the conversation , you do it.
You speak of the things that you think are of relevance.

But i can do it only Sunday,if that is okay.
 

VoidCat

Use any and all pronouns including neo and it/it's
Hey everyone, I am a current seminary student, and I am in a class on apologetics. Our "paper" is to have a 3500 word written exchange with someone outside of the Christian faith. I would like to complete our discussion about this by Tuesday or Wednesday next week. We can discuss via email or just message back and forth on here through the conversation feature. I would be arguing for Christianity, and you would be arguing that Christianity is false.
Please only inquire about this if you have the time to do this extensive written discussion throughout the next five days. Thank you!
Hmmm...i don't really feel like I have to have Christianity proved to me or like arguing against it. Im a pagan eclectic with luciferian beliefs. My problem with such arguments is often Christians are not trained to argue with polytheists like me. If we were to argue it wouldn't be against Christianity but how come I should honor your god? A lot of discussions with Christians are hilarious cuz our thinking on religion often is too far from each other that the christian has no idea how to even discuss it. Im afraid the majority of the argument would result in me having to explain my beliefs rather then us debating.
I also don't see the need to defend my own beliefs they are not for everyone.
 

ecpotts4

Member
Agnostic atheist here.

I don't think I can help you as I have no questions about your faith and there is nothing about it that I want or need you to defend.

Maybe you have some questions about atheistic humanism, my worldview. Are you taught why and how that worldview differs from yours in seminary? I'm not asking you to go off topic and discuss that here, just whether you know what such a person believes and why.

Agreed, but is that relevant? Whereas as you noted, Copernicus was eventually understood to be correct, Christians have been arguing on behalf of their religion for two millennia and haven't moved the needle at all regarding their extraordinary claims.
Actually, yeah! Worldviews have been a pretty substantial topic among the philosophy, ethic, and apologetic courses at my seminar!
Agnostic atheist here.

I don't think I can help you as I have no questions about your faith and there is nothing about it that I want or need you to defend.

Maybe you have some questions about atheistic humanism, my worldview. Are you taught why and how that worldview differs from yours in seminary? I'm not asking you to go off topic and discuss that here, just whether you know what such a person believes and why.

Agreed, but is that relevant? Whereas as you noted, Copernicus was eventually understood to be correct, Christians have been arguing on behalf of their religion for two millennia and haven't moved the needle at all regarding their extraordinary claims.
Relevant to this forum, no. Relevant to show that just because someone has to argue something doesn't mean said something can't be true (which was the op's comment essentially, if I understood correctly).
 

ecpotts4

Member
Hmmm...i don't really feel like I have to have Christianity proved to me or like arguing against it. Im a pagan eclectic with luciferian beliefs. My problem with such arguments is often Christians are not trained to argue with polytheists like me. If we were to argue it wouldn't be against Christianity but how come I should honor your god? A lot of discussions with Christians are hilarious cuz our thinking on religion often is too far from each other that the christian has no idea how to even discuss it. Im afraid the majority of the argument would result in me having to explain my beliefs rather then us debating.
I also don't see the need to defend my own beliefs they are not for everyone.
Yeah, that's a valid point. Contemporary Christian culture definitely lacks knowledge of other religions. If you change your mind and do want to discuss with me, I'd be more than willing! I have learned about polytheistic religions and worldviews at my seminary and during undergrad when I studied religion with agnostic and atheistic professors. That's not to say I wouldn't need to ask questions about your beliefs, but it is to say that I know more than the average joe probably.
 

VoidCat

Use any and all pronouns including neo and it/it's
Yeah, that's a valid point. Contemporary Christian culture definitely lacks knowledge of other religions. If you change your mind and do want to discuss with me, I'd be more than willing! I have learned about polytheistic religions and worldviews at my seminary and during undergrad when I studied religion with agnostic and atheistic professors. That's not to say I wouldn't need to ask questions about your beliefs, but it is to say that I know more than the average joe probably.
Id be willing to discuss. However I wouldn't exactly have my heart into convincing you of my beliefs being right or convincing you if being wrong. My thinking isn't really like that with religion. But I would be glad to discuss my beliefs.

Edit: we could debate why i should join your religion...but it wouldnt be a debate on who is right or wrong because my mind doesnt work like that.
 

ecpotts4

Member
Eastern Orthodox , yes.
Have you heard of Macedonia?
That's where i come from.
Yes, I have! We have some things in common and definitely have some things we disagree on too, haha! I'd love to discuss / debate with you about our beliefs over email or something if you're willing.
 
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Dimi95

Прaвославие!
Yes, I have! We have some things in common and definitely have some things we disagree on too, haha! I'd love to discuss / debate with you about our beliefs over email or something if you're willing.
I need to tell you that i will only discuss them with you , i don't see you as oponent.

I don't know anything about your belief , but maybe you know something of Eastern Orthodox.

I have to go now , but leave me your e-mail if you don't change your mind.
Stays for Sunday from my side.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Hey everyone, I am a current seminary student, and I am in a class on apologetics. Our "paper" is to have a 3500 word written exchange with someone outside of the Christian faith. I would like to complete our discussion about this by Tuesday or Wednesday next week. We can discuss via email or just message back and forth on here through the conversation feature. I would be arguing for Christianity, and you would be arguing that Christianity is false.
Please only inquire about this if you have the time to do this extensive written discussion throughout the next five days. Thank you!
I was brought up for church leadership and left it all behind.
I can participate.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Hey, thank you for the response!
So, the person who dialogues with me can be a Christian if he or she holds a different approach to Christianity and doubts the system of doctrine that I believe in. I would be arguing for Christianity according to the system of doctrine set forth in the Westminster Confession of Faith, a Reformed and theologically conservative view of Christianity.
Also, yes, I would be arguing for this approach to Christianity (not for God himself), but I believe this system of doctrine most accurately summarizes what God has revealed in Scripture. If you'd like to engage in a discussion about this which would total around 3000 words, let me know! You can lead the conversation, raise any objections to Reformed theology, and ask any questions you want!

Let's roll with it. I will simplify due to the word limit. I am making certain assumptions based on what I understand your beliefs to be.

Christianity is false because:

1) If the fall is false, Christianity is false.
The fall is false.
Therefore, Christianity is false.

Going by the genealogy presented in the bible and the historical context, humans (Adam and Eve) appeared on Earth less than 10 thousand years ago. But we know that the human species has been around for about 300 thousand years, living under the same consequences that are purported to be the result of the fall.


2) If God is evil, Christianity is false.
If predestination is true, God is evil.
Predestination is true.
Therefore, Christianity is false.

Predestinantion means that God willfully chose to send many people to hell. This is an evil act. Before you reply to this, I wanna ask you to take care with special pleading and the Euthyphro dilemma.


3) If Jesus' death was unnecessary, Christianity is false.
Jesus' death was unnecessary.
Therefore, Christianity is false.

First of all, if the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died in our (or at least saved ones) stead, then some people simply wouldn't die. But everyone dies. Being granted a new life is not equivalent to not having to pay the wages of sin.

Second, either God is sovereign or he is not. If he is, he can make it so the wages of sin are not death without any substitutionary atonement. If he is not, then where did this rule come from?
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Hey everyone, I am a current seminary student, and I am in a class on apologetics. Our "paper" is to have a 3500 word written exchange with someone outside of the Christian faith. I would like to complete our discussion about this by Tuesday or Wednesday next week. We can discuss via email or just message back and forth on here through the conversation feature. I would be arguing for Christianity, and you would be arguing that Christianity is false.
Please only inquire about this if you have the time to do this extensive written discussion throughout the next five days. Thank you!
If I were to argue against Christianity, I would base that argument on the proposition that the religion calling itself Christianity does no reflect the teachings of Christ.

A couple of points to consider:

1. Jesus was a Jew, and he remained a Jew to the end. He did not preach against Judaism, nor did he preach a new form of Judaism. He even admonished his Jewish listeners to keep to their Judaic precepts, and rituals, and traditions. He was not starting a new religion.

2. Jews both back then and even to this day are not evangelical. They did not and do not believe that anyone needs to become a Jew to know God or to be right with God. Jews believe that anyone can do this in their own way, such that there is no reason whatever that they would need to convert to Judaism, or to any other religion, or to any religion at all. And as a result, Jesus was preaching his spiritual message to all people: Jews, people of other religions, and the non-religious, alike. Not to convert them, but simply to inform them.

3. The message of Christ is both a revelation and a promise to all mankind. The revelation being that ALL human beings have the divine spirit of God within them, as they (we) are all God's 'offspring'. That spirit being the spirit of love, forgiveness, kindness, and generosity. Also a spirit of truth, wisdom, and humility. That is the revelation. And it is not tied to any particular religion.

And the promise that comes with that revelation is that if we humans will choose to allow that divine spirit within us become us ... allow ourselves to become human vessels for it, it will heal us and save us from ourselves, and will help us to help others to do the same. And when enough of us are willing to make this choice, the whole world will be healed and saved FROM US.

4. These are not religious teachings. They are neither Judaic nor Islamic, nor Buddhist, nor Hindi. They are basically a new kind of spiritual self-awareness that ANYONE can grasp and test out for themselves. Regardless of any particular religiosity or lack thereof. In fact, it's likely that a strong bent toward religiosity might actually get in the way: muddy up the clarity and simplicity of this amazing revelation and promise by attaching all kinds of religious messages and requirements to it.

5. It was the religionists in Jesus' story that opposed this spiritual message most adamantly. Even to the point of having him killed to shut him up. Because they saw him illuminating the difference between spirituality and religiosity and they weren't having it. And it's still the religionists in the 'Story of Christ', to this day, that are objecting most vociferously to his revelation and promise (to all mankind). And they're doing so for the exact same reasons. He is still exposing the differences between real spirituality and their particular religiosity. And they are fighting to maintain and protect the superiority of their religiosity.


Just some food for thought along the lines an anti-Christian debate. (I am neither pro- nor anti-religious.)
 
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ecpotts4

Member
Let's roll with it. I will simplify due to the word limit. I am making certain assumptions based on what I understand your beliefs to be.

Christianity is false because:

1) If the fall is false, Christianity is false.
The fall is false.
Therefore, Christianity is false.

Going by the genealogy presented in the bible and the historical context, humans (Adam and Eve) appeared on Earth less than 10 thousand years ago. But we know that the human species has been around for about 300 thousand years, living under the same consequences that are purported to be the result of the fall.


2) If God is evil, Christianity is false.
If predestination is true, God is evil.
Predestination is true.
Therefore, Christianity is false.

Predestinantion means that God willfully chose to send many people to hell. This is an evil act. Before you reply to this, I wanna ask you to take care with special pleading and the Euthyphro dilemma.

3) If Jesus' death was unnecessary, Christianity is false.
Jesus' death was unnecessary.
Therefore, Christianity is false.

First of all, if the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died in our (or at least saved ones) stead, then some people simply wouldn't die. But everyone dies. Being granted a new life is not equivalent to not having to pay the wages of sin.

Second, either God is sovereign or he is not. If he is, he can make it so the wages of sin are not death without any substitutionary atonement. If he is not, then where did this rule come from?
Hey Koldo, thank you for the response! Obviously, I disagree with the second premises in each of your arguments. If you're willing, I'd greatly appreciate taking this discussion to private messaging / email, but if you'd prefer to have the lengthy conversation on this thread, that works for me too. Let me know, and I will respond accordingly. Thank you!
 
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Reactions: ppp

ecpotts4

Member
If I were to argue against Christianity, I would base that argument on the proposition that the religion calling itself Christianity does no reflect the teachings of Christ.

A couple of points to consider:

1. Jesus was a Jew, and he remained a Jew to the end. He did not preach against Judaism, nor did he preach a new form of Judaism. He even admonished his Jewish listeners to keep to their Judaic precepts, and rituals, and traditions. He was not starting a new religion.

2. Jews both back then and even to this day are not evangelical. They did not and do not believe that anyone needs to become a Jew to know God or to be right with God. Jews believe that anyone can do this in their own way, such that there is no reason whatever that they would need to convert to Judaism, or to any other religion, or to any religion at all. And as a result, Jesus was preaching his spiritual message to all people: Jews, people of other religions, and the non-religious, alike. Not to convert them, but simply to inform them.

3. The message of Christ is both a revelation and a promise to all mankind. The revelation being that ALL human beings have the divine spirit of God within them, as they (we) are all God's 'offspring'. That spirit being the spirit of love, forgiveness, kindness, and generosity. Also a spirit of truth, wisdom, and humility. That is the revelation. And it is not particularly 'religious'.

And the promise that comes with that revelation is that if we humans will choose to allow that divine spirit within us become us ... allow ourselves to become human vessels for it, it will heal us and save us from ourselves, and will help us to help others to do the same. And when enough of us are willing to do this, the whole world will be healed and saved FROM US.

4. These are not religious teachings. They are neither Judaic nor Islamic, nor Buddhist, nor Hindi. They are basically a new spiritual self-awareness that ANYONE can grasp and test out for themselves. Regardless of any particular religiosity. In fact, it's likely that a bent toward religiosity might get in the way: muddy up the clarity and simplicity of this amazing revelation by attaching all kinds of religious messages and requirements to it.

5. It was the religionists in Jesus' story that opposed his spiritual message most adamantly. Even to the point of having him killed to shut him up. Because they saw him illuminating the difference between spirituality and religiosity. And it's still the religionists in the 'Story of Christ', to to this day, that are objecting most vociferously to his revelation and promise (to all mankind). And they're doing so for the exact same reasons. He is still exposing the differences between real spirituality and their religiosity. And they are fighting to maintain and protect their religiosity.

Just some food for thought along the lines an anti-Christian debate. (I am neither pro- nor anti-religious.)
Hey PureX, thank you for responding! I appreciate you taking the time to do so. Just like what I said to Koldo, I'd love to take this discussion to email or private messaging since I want to have a discussion totaling around 3500 words. However, if you'd prefer to message on this thread publicly, then that works with me as well! Just let me know, thank you!
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Hey Koldo, thank you for the response! Obviously, I disagree with the second premises in each of your arguments. If you're willing, I'd greatly appreciate taking this discussion to private messaging / email, but if you'd prefer to have the lengthy conversation on this thread, that works for me too. Let me know, and I will respond accordingly. Thank you!

It is up to you. You can either reply here or in private message.
 

walt

Jesus is King & Mighty God Isa.9:6-7; Lk.1:32-33
I think a good place to start is, what does the Bible say about any particular belief? [ Belief: Jesus is the Son of God and God is his God and Father ]

Jesus gives us instructions and so does the Bible:
1. "I am God's son" "my Father who is in the heavens" "my Father and your Father, to my God and your God." "This is my Son, the beloved"
John 10:36, Matthew 7:21, John 20:17, Matt 3:17, John 3:16-18, Matthew 11:27, John 3:35, Luke 10:22, John 6:46, Luke 3:32, John 3:13, John 6:38, 8:23, 42; John 17:5, John 17:1-3, Matt 16:13-17, John 14:1

John 20:31, John 1:34, Galatians 4:4, Acts 20:28, Luke 1:32-35, 1 John 4:9, John 1:34, Hebrews 4:14, John 1:49, Galatians 4:6, Matthew 27:40, Romans 8:3, 32; 1 John 4:9-10, Matthew 14:33, Acts 9:20, Hebrews 1:2, 1 John 4:15, 1 Corinthians 15:47, Ephesians 4:4-6, 1 Corinthians 8:6, 1 Timothy 2:5, Deuteronomy 6:4, Mark 12:29, Mark 12:32, 1 Corinthians 3:23, 11:3, 15:27-28, Isaiah 46:9
 
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PureX

Veteran Member
Hey PureX, thank you for responding! I appreciate you taking the time to do so. Just like what I said to Koldo, I'd love to take this discussion to email or private messaging since I want to have a discussion totaling around 3500 words. However, if you'd prefer to message on this thread publicly, then that works with me as well! Just let me know, thank you!
I will keep responding, here, but I cannot guarantee a word count. Though, those who know me wouldn't doubt that I could reach it. :)
 
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