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Debate on hell
- Thread starter Frank Goad
- Start date
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe you qualify because you believe your own fantasies.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe anyone can have a fantasy and call it an explanation. I wouldn't bother with it. I get the straight dope from the One who knows everything.
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
What do you think of Luke 16:19-31.And Isaiah 14:9-11.And Deuteronomy 32:22.And Psalms 86:13?
I already posted this on Religions Q&A.But wanted to post it here to get a debate going.Because If I would of stared a debate on Religions Q&A the debate wouldn't have belonged there.
The concept of Hell and eternally burning souls in hell that much of Christianity has today in my view is not biblical but a false teaching invented by the Roman Catholic Church handed down to much of protestantism. This was never the view of the old testament scriptures and there is no case for it in the new testament. It comes from a misapplication and interpretation of some new testament scriptures and the prophecies of Revelation but these were all written and understood in conection to the old testament scriptures to which they were taken from the Hebrew to the Greek. Someone else (Clear) already posted the Hebrew from the old testament scripture and the Greek for you showing Hades being used here means the grave. Don't know what else to say here really accept to say don'y rely on the teachings of others. Do a prayerful study of the scriptures for yourself.
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3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
I beleive they are only a problem for those who do not believe and follow the scriptures. According to the scriptures, it doesn't look to good for those who have been given a knowledge of the truth of God's Word and have chosen to reject it come judgement day.
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Onoma
Active Member
I'd have to be convinced hell is a physical place, but when I study the Bible I don't get that impression
Both " hades " and " heaven " are preceded by a primary preposition in Greek, ( in ) which can denote the time of something, the location of something, or the state of a situation
There's been no reasonable argument made that in these cases the primary preposition implies a place
It would be like you thinking " trouble " is a place I'm in, if I said " I'm in trouble " ( It's not )
There are also several different Greek words translated as " in " and this seems to be missed by a majority of people discussing these topics ( They all have specific uses in speech )
Then there's the fact that " hades " is written simply by affixing the negative particle prefix of the letter alpha to the greek word for " knowing / understanding / seeing / perceiving / etc " to make it actually read " not knowing / understanding / seeing / perceiving / etc
This meshes closer to the primary preposition preceding " hades " inferring a situation and not a place, especially when you consider the meaning of " darkness " in Greek ( skotos ) metaphorically is used to refer to " spiritual ignorance " ( Of things pertaining to the word or God, generally )
Most concordances will offer something like : metaphorically to darken or blind the mind ( Thayer's )
A " blinded mind " is one that does " not know " which is the meaning of " hades " when broken into it's construction
Darkness - skotoo - to have the mind blinded / to be ignorant of something ( not knowing something )
Hades - " not knowing "
Etymologically, the Greek word for " pit " traces back to the Greek word used to metaphorically refer to the " the deep things of God ", which just shows this is taken from earlier priestly traditions, as going to the " pit " or the " abyss " is also found in texts like Gilgamesh, ( In the colophon of Sin-leqi-unninni - the one who " saw the abyss / pit " )
In Hebrew, the word " pit " comes from the word used metaphorically to mean " to make clear, clear up, explain, prove "
In essence what you have are concepts that simply relate to the traditional sacerdotal role of a priest-king to go from " not knowing " to knowing " ( Which is a common theme in Mesopotamian, Egyptian and Greek societies, as well as others )
Both " hades " and " heaven " are preceded by a primary preposition in Greek, ( in ) which can denote the time of something, the location of something, or the state of a situation
There's been no reasonable argument made that in these cases the primary preposition implies a place
It would be like you thinking " trouble " is a place I'm in, if I said " I'm in trouble " ( It's not )
There are also several different Greek words translated as " in " and this seems to be missed by a majority of people discussing these topics ( They all have specific uses in speech )
Then there's the fact that " hades " is written simply by affixing the negative particle prefix of the letter alpha to the greek word for " knowing / understanding / seeing / perceiving / etc " to make it actually read " not knowing / understanding / seeing / perceiving / etc
This meshes closer to the primary preposition preceding " hades " inferring a situation and not a place, especially when you consider the meaning of " darkness " in Greek ( skotos ) metaphorically is used to refer to " spiritual ignorance " ( Of things pertaining to the word or God, generally )
Most concordances will offer something like : metaphorically to darken or blind the mind ( Thayer's )
A " blinded mind " is one that does " not know " which is the meaning of " hades " when broken into it's construction
Darkness - skotoo - to have the mind blinded / to be ignorant of something ( not knowing something )
Hades - " not knowing "
Etymologically, the Greek word for " pit " traces back to the Greek word used to metaphorically refer to the " the deep things of God ", which just shows this is taken from earlier priestly traditions, as going to the " pit " or the " abyss " is also found in texts like Gilgamesh, ( In the colophon of Sin-leqi-unninni - the one who " saw the abyss / pit " )
In Hebrew, the word " pit " comes from the word used metaphorically to mean " to make clear, clear up, explain, prove "
In essence what you have are concepts that simply relate to the traditional sacerdotal role of a priest-king to go from " not knowing " to knowing " ( Which is a common theme in Mesopotamian, Egyptian and Greek societies, as well as others )
EsonauticSage
Between extremes
POST ONE OF THREE
@3rdAngel said : Someone else (Clear) already posted the Hebrew from the old testament scripture and the 3rd Greek for you showing Hades being used here means the grave. (Post #26)
This is incorrect (or at least, incomplete).
I do not think Hades simply means “the grave”. My post was a response to RabbiOs’ comment on Frank Goads Opening Post when RabbiO claimed : “None of the verses you listed from Jewish scripture mention “hell”. (post #6) I simply confirmed that the verses the O.P. quoted from Jewish LXX (jewish translation into greek from 300 b.c. and the main bible quoted in the early Christian movement) DO mention hades (another world for "hell") in each verse the O.P. quoted.
Hades is NOT merely “the grave” but was, in early Christian literature, a physical place where the spirits of the dead stayed after the body died and they awaited the resurrection.
1) HADES AS “THE PLACE IN THE MIDDLE”
IEarly Judeo-christian textual descriptions of Christian belief are often disorienting for individuals who start to study them, partly because there are so many terms that are used for the same principle. For example, descriptions of the “intermediate” world between mortality and Final Judgment is described by many terms in early texts.
Both texts and translators of various early texts use many words to refer to this place such as SHEOL - HADES - SPIRIT WORLD, PARADISE, sometimes "HELL" is used. Occasionally, it is only the context that saves us from confusion in terms. For example, instead of Hades, other terms have also been used to describe this same place in different contexts.
The description that “paradise is in between the corruptible and the incorruptible.” (2 Enoch 8:5) indicates the ancient meaning for Paradise which moderns often forget. (i.e. it refers to the gardens OUTSIDE of the kings castle, and not inside his dwelling). The different terms for the same place or principle create confusing contexts and interpretations.
For example, this ancient meaning of the word “Paradise” changes the meaning of Jesus promise to Dymas (the thief crucified beside Jesus) that he would “be with me in paradise” (luke 23:43). In this context, It was not “heaven” Dymas the thief was promised, but it was “paradise”, which, in this case was also the place between corruptible mortality and judgement.
In a similar context, it was said, “ Either he will be in this world or in the resurrection or in the places in the middle.” (The gospel of Phillip) All who leave mortality through death enter the place in the middle, i.e. Sheol, hades, spirit world, paradise, etc. (or whatever other term a text or person uses)
The “complainer” Ezra also uses the same term when he remarks to Jesus in a vision, regarding the end of his (the prophet Ezras’) life : “Bewail me, all holy and just ones, because I have entered the bowl of Hades.” (Apoc of Ez 7:1). The glorified Jesus reminds Ezra that he himself had been there as well : “Hear, Ezra, my beloved one. I, being immortal, received a cross, I tasted vinegar and gall, I was set down in a grave. And I raised up my elect ones and I summoned up Adam from Hades (The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 6:26 & 7:1-4).
This refers to Jesus descensus as a spirit into this middle place while his body remained in the tomb before resurrection. But more on this later.
2) ALL WHO DIE GO TO THIS SPIRIT WORLD (THE PLACE IN THE MIDDLE)
In this ancient Christian theology, all souls, including the Patriarchs and prophets, upon dying, have their spirits placed into this spirit world. : “... Not one of the forefathers has escaped the mystery of death. All have died, all have departed into Hades, all have been gathered by the sickle of Death.” (TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension A) 8:9; 7)
“ And Death said, “Hear, righteous Abraham, for seven ages I ravage the world and I lead everyone down into Hades – kings and rulers, rich and poor, slaves and free I send into the depth of Hades (T of Abr (rec A) 19:7) .
“For Death deceived Abraham. And he kissed his hand and immediately his soul cleaved to the hand of Death....13...the undefiled voice of the God and Father came speaking thus : “Take, then my friend Abraham into Paradise, where there are the tents of my righteous ones and (where) the mansions of my old ones, Isaac and jacob, are in his bosom... (TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension A) 20:9,13-15) Though he uses the word, "paradise", it is this same place in the middle that he is actually referring to.
I very much agree with posters who point out that none of these references refer to a "Hell" of fire and brimstone that serves as torture after judgment, but instead, Hades was a name for this "spirit world"; i.e. the "place in the middle".
3) CONDITIONS IN HADES VARY ACCORDING TO THE MORAL CHARACTER OF THE PERSON WHO INHABITS IT
Another point of confusion regarding Hades is that the experience there is NOT the same for all individuals since individuals are divided according to their degree of righteousness. For the righteous, it was pleasant, for those who were evil, it was a prison of sorts. This partly explains it's association with punishment....
Thus the ancient texts describe it differently according to who is sent there (i.e the righteous vs the unrighteous). Since the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage of sorts, was often referred to as a "prison" in early textual references.
In describing Sheol, Enoch is shown in his vision that this middle place has separate “areas” for individuals to be “assigned to”. In his vision, Enoch asks the angel : ”For what reason is one separated from the other? And he replied and said unto me, “These three have been made in order that the spirits of the dead might be separated. And in the manner in which the souls of the righteous are separated (by) this spring of water with light upon it, in like manner the sinners are set apart when they die and are buried in the earth and judgment has not been executed upon them in their lifetime,... until the great day of judgment...They will bind them there forever–even from the beginning of the world. ....Such has been made for the souls of the people who are not righteous, but sinners and perfect criminals; they shall be together with (other) criminals who are like them. (1Enoch 22:9-13)
Since the righteous are with the righteous, they seem to adapt to a calm existence, the unrighteous, being grouped with others of their type and having increased awareness of the result of their moral choices become unhappy in their regrets and distress. And, Sheol itself also had a “middle place” according to this ancient model.
In Abraham’s description of Hades, he asks the angel : “Is one who is unable to enter through the strait gate unable to enter into life?...4 And Michael answered...you will enter through it unhindered, as will all those who are like you.”...And when they went, they found an angel holding in his hand one soul of a woman from among the six myriads, because he found (her) sins evenly balanced with all her works, and they were neither in distress nor at rest, but in an intermediate place.. ( TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension B) 9:1-10)
The point is that for the righteous, this world of spirits was not particularly unpleasant but for the unrighteous it was a place of some distress. It is this variable nature of Hades which allows it to acquire multiple names such as "paradise" AND "prison".
4) SOULS IN HADES WERE COGNISANT AND COMMUNICATIVE AND KEPT THEIR OWN IDENTITY AND PERSONALITIES
In this early Christian doctrine, Hades was not simply a place where souls “sleep”, but they were cognizant and communicate and still had free will.
For example : Enoch, in his vision of Hades/Sheol, describes those there who are still teaching moral law to others : “Come and I will show you where the souls of the wicked stand, and where the souls of the intermediate stand;... He said to me: The souls of the wicked are brought down to sheol....Samki’el is in charge of the souls of the intermediate, to support them and purify them from sin, through the abundant mercies of the Omnipresent One. “ (3en 44:1-3)
post two of two follows
@3rdAngel said : Someone else (Clear) already posted the Hebrew from the old testament scripture and the 3rd Greek for you showing Hades being used here means the grave. (Post #26)
This is incorrect (or at least, incomplete).
I do not think Hades simply means “the grave”. My post was a response to RabbiOs’ comment on Frank Goads Opening Post when RabbiO claimed : “None of the verses you listed from Jewish scripture mention “hell”. (post #6) I simply confirmed that the verses the O.P. quoted from Jewish LXX (jewish translation into greek from 300 b.c. and the main bible quoted in the early Christian movement) DO mention hades (another world for "hell") in each verse the O.P. quoted.
Hades is NOT merely “the grave” but was, in early Christian literature, a physical place where the spirits of the dead stayed after the body died and they awaited the resurrection.
1) HADES AS “THE PLACE IN THE MIDDLE”
IEarly Judeo-christian textual descriptions of Christian belief are often disorienting for individuals who start to study them, partly because there are so many terms that are used for the same principle. For example, descriptions of the “intermediate” world between mortality and Final Judgment is described by many terms in early texts.
Both texts and translators of various early texts use many words to refer to this place such as SHEOL - HADES - SPIRIT WORLD, PARADISE, sometimes "HELL" is used. Occasionally, it is only the context that saves us from confusion in terms. For example, instead of Hades, other terms have also been used to describe this same place in different contexts.
The description that “paradise is in between the corruptible and the incorruptible.” (2 Enoch 8:5) indicates the ancient meaning for Paradise which moderns often forget. (i.e. it refers to the gardens OUTSIDE of the kings castle, and not inside his dwelling). The different terms for the same place or principle create confusing contexts and interpretations.
For example, this ancient meaning of the word “Paradise” changes the meaning of Jesus promise to Dymas (the thief crucified beside Jesus) that he would “be with me in paradise” (luke 23:43). In this context, It was not “heaven” Dymas the thief was promised, but it was “paradise”, which, in this case was also the place between corruptible mortality and judgement.
In a similar context, it was said, “ Either he will be in this world or in the resurrection or in the places in the middle.” (The gospel of Phillip) All who leave mortality through death enter the place in the middle, i.e. Sheol, hades, spirit world, paradise, etc. (or whatever other term a text or person uses)
The “complainer” Ezra also uses the same term when he remarks to Jesus in a vision, regarding the end of his (the prophet Ezras’) life : “Bewail me, all holy and just ones, because I have entered the bowl of Hades.” (Apoc of Ez 7:1). The glorified Jesus reminds Ezra that he himself had been there as well : “Hear, Ezra, my beloved one. I, being immortal, received a cross, I tasted vinegar and gall, I was set down in a grave. And I raised up my elect ones and I summoned up Adam from Hades (The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 6:26 & 7:1-4).
This refers to Jesus descensus as a spirit into this middle place while his body remained in the tomb before resurrection. But more on this later.
2) ALL WHO DIE GO TO THIS SPIRIT WORLD (THE PLACE IN THE MIDDLE)
In this ancient Christian theology, all souls, including the Patriarchs and prophets, upon dying, have their spirits placed into this spirit world. : “... Not one of the forefathers has escaped the mystery of death. All have died, all have departed into Hades, all have been gathered by the sickle of Death.” (TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension A) 8:9; 7)
“ And Death said, “Hear, righteous Abraham, for seven ages I ravage the world and I lead everyone down into Hades – kings and rulers, rich and poor, slaves and free I send into the depth of Hades (T of Abr (rec A) 19:7) .
“For Death deceived Abraham. And he kissed his hand and immediately his soul cleaved to the hand of Death....13...the undefiled voice of the God and Father came speaking thus : “Take, then my friend Abraham into Paradise, where there are the tents of my righteous ones and (where) the mansions of my old ones, Isaac and jacob, are in his bosom... (TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension A) 20:9,13-15) Though he uses the word, "paradise", it is this same place in the middle that he is actually referring to.
I very much agree with posters who point out that none of these references refer to a "Hell" of fire and brimstone that serves as torture after judgment, but instead, Hades was a name for this "spirit world"; i.e. the "place in the middle".
3) CONDITIONS IN HADES VARY ACCORDING TO THE MORAL CHARACTER OF THE PERSON WHO INHABITS IT
Another point of confusion regarding Hades is that the experience there is NOT the same for all individuals since individuals are divided according to their degree of righteousness. For the righteous, it was pleasant, for those who were evil, it was a prison of sorts. This partly explains it's association with punishment....
Thus the ancient texts describe it differently according to who is sent there (i.e the righteous vs the unrighteous). Since the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage of sorts, was often referred to as a "prison" in early textual references.
In describing Sheol, Enoch is shown in his vision that this middle place has separate “areas” for individuals to be “assigned to”. In his vision, Enoch asks the angel : ”For what reason is one separated from the other? And he replied and said unto me, “These three have been made in order that the spirits of the dead might be separated. And in the manner in which the souls of the righteous are separated (by) this spring of water with light upon it, in like manner the sinners are set apart when they die and are buried in the earth and judgment has not been executed upon them in their lifetime,... until the great day of judgment...They will bind them there forever–even from the beginning of the world. ....Such has been made for the souls of the people who are not righteous, but sinners and perfect criminals; they shall be together with (other) criminals who are like them. (1Enoch 22:9-13)
Since the righteous are with the righteous, they seem to adapt to a calm existence, the unrighteous, being grouped with others of their type and having increased awareness of the result of their moral choices become unhappy in their regrets and distress. And, Sheol itself also had a “middle place” according to this ancient model.
In Abraham’s description of Hades, he asks the angel : “Is one who is unable to enter through the strait gate unable to enter into life?...4 And Michael answered...you will enter through it unhindered, as will all those who are like you.”...And when they went, they found an angel holding in his hand one soul of a woman from among the six myriads, because he found (her) sins evenly balanced with all her works, and they were neither in distress nor at rest, but in an intermediate place.. ( TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension B) 9:1-10)
The point is that for the righteous, this world of spirits was not particularly unpleasant but for the unrighteous it was a place of some distress. It is this variable nature of Hades which allows it to acquire multiple names such as "paradise" AND "prison".
4) SOULS IN HADES WERE COGNISANT AND COMMUNICATIVE AND KEPT THEIR OWN IDENTITY AND PERSONALITIES
In this early Christian doctrine, Hades was not simply a place where souls “sleep”, but they were cognizant and communicate and still had free will.
For example : Enoch, in his vision of Hades/Sheol, describes those there who are still teaching moral law to others : “Come and I will show you where the souls of the wicked stand, and where the souls of the intermediate stand;... He said to me: The souls of the wicked are brought down to sheol....Samki’el is in charge of the souls of the intermediate, to support them and purify them from sin, through the abundant mercies of the Omnipresent One. “ (3en 44:1-3)
post two of two follows
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POST TWO OF TWO
5) THE DESCENT OF JESUS CHRIST INTO HADES
The descent of Christ into “the place in between” (sheol, hades, hell, etc.) after his death is described in multiple ancient accounts.
For example, One is The Gospel of Bartholomew. In this account, the Apostle Bartholomew asks the resurrected Jesus : “Lord, when you went to be hanged on the cross, I followed you at a distance and saw how you were hanged on the cross and how the angels descended from heaven and worshiped you. And when darkness came, I looked and saw that you had vanished from the cross; only I heard your voice in the underworld,.....Tell me, Lord, where you went from the cross.”
In this christian account, Jesus summarizes his descent into Hades saying : "I went to the underworld to bring up Adam and all the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.... When I descended with my angels to the underworld ,in order to dash in pieces the iron bars and shatter the portals of the underworld”... “ I shattered the iron bars....And I brought out all the patriarchs and came again to the cross.... “I was hanged upon the cross for your sake and for the sake of your children.” (The Gospel of Bartholomew chapt one)
The early Christian Gospel of Nicodemus, text contains multiple testimonies of the living Jesus after his resurrection AND descriptions of Jesus actions in Hades when he visited the “spirits imprisoned” there.
For example, Matthew 27:52 observes that after Jesus resurrected, the graves of many of the saints opened and the bodies of many individuals who had died were also resurrected with Jesus and these individuals went to Jerusalem and appeared to many others. IF something like this happened, one would expect diaries and literature that both reported and described it. Thus, early christian literature describes this happening and conditions in hades as well.
Joseph (of Arimathea) observes to those discussing Jesus resurrection and says :
“Why then do you marvel at the resurrection of Jesus? It is not this that is marvelous, but rather that he was not raised alone, but raised up many other dead men who appeared to many in Jerusalem. And if you do not know the others, yet Symeon, who took Jesus in his arms, [Luke 2:34] and his two sons, whom he raised up, you do know. For we buried them a little while ago. And now their sepulchers are to be seen opened and empty, but they themselves are alive and dwelling in Arimathaea”...Joseph said: “Let us go to Arimathaea and find them.” Then arose the chief priests Annas and Caiaphas, and Joseph and Nicodemus and Gamaliel and others with them, and went to Arimathaea and found the men of whom Joseph spoke.” (Gospel of Nicodemus Ch one)
These men then speak with the resurrected sons of Symeon (who were NOT Christians while they were alive). These two had died, and gone to the world of Spirits, converted to Christianity while in the spirit world, and had then been resurrected with many others at the resurrection of Christ and who were walking among and teaching others regarding Jesus. The brothers described what happened in this Spirit world (sheol, hades, etc).
“We, then were in Hades with all who have died since the beginning of the world. And at the hour of midnight there rose upon the darkness there something like the light of the sun and shone, and light fell upon us all, and we saw one another, and immediately our father, Abraham, along with the patriarchs and the prophets, was filled the joy, and they said to one another: “This shining comes from a great light.” The prophet Isaiah, who was present there, said : “This shining comes from the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. This I prophesied when I was still living: The land of Zabulon and the land of Nephthalim, the people that sit in darkness saw a great light.” Then there came into the midst another, an anchorite from the wilderness. The patriarchs asked him: “Who are you?” He replied: “I am John, the last of the prophets, who made straight the ways of the Son of God, and preached repentance to the people for the forgiveness of sins.....And for this reason he sent me to you, to preach that the only begotten Son of God comes here, in order that whoever believes in him should be saved,....Therefore I say to you all: When you see him, all of you worship him. For now only have you opportunity for repentance because you worshiped idols in the vain world above and sinned. At another time it is impossible” (Gospel of Nicodemus Ch two)
I might make the point here that it is not only John the Baptist’s spirit who is teaching the other souls the gospel, but the spirits of the other Patriarchs among the spirits of men are teaching the gospel and many other spirits are also “called to testify” and teach gospel truths to the others in the spirit world.
The story continues : “Now when John was thus teaching those who were in Hades, the first-created, the first father Adam heard, and said to his son Seth: My son, I wish you to tell the forefathers of the race of men and the prophets where I sent you when I fell into mortal sickness.”
Seth then teaches the others regarding the "oil of mercy" that Adam requested and that Seth was told “go and tell your father than after the completion of fifty-five hundred years from the creation of the world, the only-begotten son of God shall become man and shall descend below the earth. And he shall anoint him with that oil. And he shall arise and wash him and his descendants with water and the Holy spirit. And then he shall be healed of every disease....When the patriarchs and prophets heard this, they rejoiced greatly.”
This same message was NOT merely for Patriarchs and Prophets, but for all souls there who would listen. Anyone who heard this preaching could both understand it and accept or reject it.
As added confusion, the angel who is presiding over hades in it's context of a holding place from which the are taken, one angel presiding over hades in it's context as "prison" is actually called Hades.
In chapter four, Satan adjures "Hades" to prevent Jesus from coming if it is possible, “For I believe that he comes here to raise all the dead”....” and while Satan and Hades were speaking thus to one another, a loud voice like thunder sounded: “Lift up your gates, O rulers, and be lifted up, O everlasting doors, and the King of glory shall come in”...David said: “Do you not know, blind one, that when I lived in the world, I prophesied that word: ‘Lift up your gates, O rulers?’” (Ps 23:7). Isaiah said: “I foresaw this by the Holy Spirit and wrote: ‘The dead shall arise, and those who are in the tombs shall be raised up, and those who are under the earth shall rejoice (ps 26:19) O death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory.’” .....the gates of brass were broken in pieces and the bars of iron were crushed and all the dead who were bound were loosed from their chains, and we with them. And the King of glory entered in like a man, and all the dark places of Hades were illumined.”.
The sons of Symeon, speaking of Jesus, continue to relate that : Ch VIII ...the King of glory stretched out his right hand, and took hold of our forefather Adam and raised him up. Then he turned also to the rest and said: “Come with me, all you who have suffered death through the tree which this man touched. For behold, I raise you all up again through the tree of the cross. With that he put them all out. “
Importantly, the sons of Symeon testify : "All this we saw and heard, we two brothers who also were sent by Michael the archangel and were appointed to preach the resurrection of the Lord, but first to go to the Jordan and be baptized. There also we went and were baptized with other dead who had risen again. Then we went to Jerusalem also and celebrated the passover of the resurrection. But now we depart, since we cannot remain here. And the love of God the Father and the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all [2 Cor. 13;14].” (The Gospel of Nicodemus- Christ’s descent into hell ch XI)
Obviously, there is an entire genre of early judeo-christian literature that describes their traditions concerning hades as the place after death and before resurrection / judgment, and that this place was described, using multiple terms besides hades. The various different terms applied to both Hades and to other things, can be confusing and it is only the context that often determines what the term is meaning.
So, in early Christianity, hades was a real place, a way-station for spirits after their bodies dies and they were awaiting resurrection and judgment.
Clear
ειτζφισεω
5) THE DESCENT OF JESUS CHRIST INTO HADES
The descent of Christ into “the place in between” (sheol, hades, hell, etc.) after his death is described in multiple ancient accounts.
For example, One is The Gospel of Bartholomew. In this account, the Apostle Bartholomew asks the resurrected Jesus : “Lord, when you went to be hanged on the cross, I followed you at a distance and saw how you were hanged on the cross and how the angels descended from heaven and worshiped you. And when darkness came, I looked and saw that you had vanished from the cross; only I heard your voice in the underworld,.....Tell me, Lord, where you went from the cross.”
In this christian account, Jesus summarizes his descent into Hades saying : "I went to the underworld to bring up Adam and all the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.... When I descended with my angels to the underworld ,in order to dash in pieces the iron bars and shatter the portals of the underworld”... “ I shattered the iron bars....And I brought out all the patriarchs and came again to the cross.... “I was hanged upon the cross for your sake and for the sake of your children.” (The Gospel of Bartholomew chapt one)
The early Christian Gospel of Nicodemus, text contains multiple testimonies of the living Jesus after his resurrection AND descriptions of Jesus actions in Hades when he visited the “spirits imprisoned” there.
For example, Matthew 27:52 observes that after Jesus resurrected, the graves of many of the saints opened and the bodies of many individuals who had died were also resurrected with Jesus and these individuals went to Jerusalem and appeared to many others. IF something like this happened, one would expect diaries and literature that both reported and described it. Thus, early christian literature describes this happening and conditions in hades as well.
Joseph (of Arimathea) observes to those discussing Jesus resurrection and says :
“Why then do you marvel at the resurrection of Jesus? It is not this that is marvelous, but rather that he was not raised alone, but raised up many other dead men who appeared to many in Jerusalem. And if you do not know the others, yet Symeon, who took Jesus in his arms, [Luke 2:34] and his two sons, whom he raised up, you do know. For we buried them a little while ago. And now their sepulchers are to be seen opened and empty, but they themselves are alive and dwelling in Arimathaea”...Joseph said: “Let us go to Arimathaea and find them.” Then arose the chief priests Annas and Caiaphas, and Joseph and Nicodemus and Gamaliel and others with them, and went to Arimathaea and found the men of whom Joseph spoke.” (Gospel of Nicodemus Ch one)
These men then speak with the resurrected sons of Symeon (who were NOT Christians while they were alive). These two had died, and gone to the world of Spirits, converted to Christianity while in the spirit world, and had then been resurrected with many others at the resurrection of Christ and who were walking among and teaching others regarding Jesus. The brothers described what happened in this Spirit world (sheol, hades, etc).
“We, then were in Hades with all who have died since the beginning of the world. And at the hour of midnight there rose upon the darkness there something like the light of the sun and shone, and light fell upon us all, and we saw one another, and immediately our father, Abraham, along with the patriarchs and the prophets, was filled the joy, and they said to one another: “This shining comes from a great light.” The prophet Isaiah, who was present there, said : “This shining comes from the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. This I prophesied when I was still living: The land of Zabulon and the land of Nephthalim, the people that sit in darkness saw a great light.” Then there came into the midst another, an anchorite from the wilderness. The patriarchs asked him: “Who are you?” He replied: “I am John, the last of the prophets, who made straight the ways of the Son of God, and preached repentance to the people for the forgiveness of sins.....And for this reason he sent me to you, to preach that the only begotten Son of God comes here, in order that whoever believes in him should be saved,....Therefore I say to you all: When you see him, all of you worship him. For now only have you opportunity for repentance because you worshiped idols in the vain world above and sinned. At another time it is impossible” (Gospel of Nicodemus Ch two)
I might make the point here that it is not only John the Baptist’s spirit who is teaching the other souls the gospel, but the spirits of the other Patriarchs among the spirits of men are teaching the gospel and many other spirits are also “called to testify” and teach gospel truths to the others in the spirit world.
The story continues : “Now when John was thus teaching those who were in Hades, the first-created, the first father Adam heard, and said to his son Seth: My son, I wish you to tell the forefathers of the race of men and the prophets where I sent you when I fell into mortal sickness.”
Seth then teaches the others regarding the "oil of mercy" that Adam requested and that Seth was told “go and tell your father than after the completion of fifty-five hundred years from the creation of the world, the only-begotten son of God shall become man and shall descend below the earth. And he shall anoint him with that oil. And he shall arise and wash him and his descendants with water and the Holy spirit. And then he shall be healed of every disease....When the patriarchs and prophets heard this, they rejoiced greatly.”
This same message was NOT merely for Patriarchs and Prophets, but for all souls there who would listen. Anyone who heard this preaching could both understand it and accept or reject it.
As added confusion, the angel who is presiding over hades in it's context of a holding place from which the are taken, one angel presiding over hades in it's context as "prison" is actually called Hades.
In chapter four, Satan adjures "Hades" to prevent Jesus from coming if it is possible, “For I believe that he comes here to raise all the dead”....” and while Satan and Hades were speaking thus to one another, a loud voice like thunder sounded: “Lift up your gates, O rulers, and be lifted up, O everlasting doors, and the King of glory shall come in”...David said: “Do you not know, blind one, that when I lived in the world, I prophesied that word: ‘Lift up your gates, O rulers?’” (Ps 23:7). Isaiah said: “I foresaw this by the Holy Spirit and wrote: ‘The dead shall arise, and those who are in the tombs shall be raised up, and those who are under the earth shall rejoice (ps 26:19) O death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory.’” .....the gates of brass were broken in pieces and the bars of iron were crushed and all the dead who were bound were loosed from their chains, and we with them. And the King of glory entered in like a man, and all the dark places of Hades were illumined.”.
The sons of Symeon, speaking of Jesus, continue to relate that : Ch VIII ...the King of glory stretched out his right hand, and took hold of our forefather Adam and raised him up. Then he turned also to the rest and said: “Come with me, all you who have suffered death through the tree which this man touched. For behold, I raise you all up again through the tree of the cross. With that he put them all out. “
Importantly, the sons of Symeon testify : "All this we saw and heard, we two brothers who also were sent by Michael the archangel and were appointed to preach the resurrection of the Lord, but first to go to the Jordan and be baptized. There also we went and were baptized with other dead who had risen again. Then we went to Jerusalem also and celebrated the passover of the resurrection. But now we depart, since we cannot remain here. And the love of God the Father and the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all [2 Cor. 13;14].” (The Gospel of Nicodemus- Christ’s descent into hell ch XI)
Obviously, there is an entire genre of early judeo-christian literature that describes their traditions concerning hades as the place after death and before resurrection / judgment, and that this place was described, using multiple terms besides hades. The various different terms applied to both Hades and to other things, can be confusing and it is only the context that often determines what the term is meaning.
So, in early Christianity, hades was a real place, a way-station for spirits after their bodies dies and they were awaiting resurrection and judgment.
Clear
ειτζφισεω
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Washingtonian
New Member
You say "the biblical hell is not very descriptive or scary..." I don't know how you can say that. Mark 9:48 refers to hell as a place "...where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched." Revelation 14:11 says "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever." Revelation 20:15 says "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." Those verses sound descriptive and scary to me.
And none of those snippets of the biblical hell are as scary as some christians make the idea out to be.
I think it is important to notice the difference between “sheol” (Underworld, grave, hades) and “Gehenna” (fire lake, second death). Both can be translated hell, but they are not the same.
Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev. 20:14
There are four (4) hells in Canon. All four of them end in the Lake of Fire! The Lake, in koine, has defining foundations, theion and theioo, both firmly rooted in Theos.
The Lake Of Fire
The Lake of Fire: The Prodigal Son; God Gains Attention;The Lake Of Fire;The Second Death;Not Hurt Of The Second Death;Tormented In The Presence Of The Lamb
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kjw47
Well-Known Member
What do you think of Luke 16:19-31.And Isaiah 14:9-11.And Deuteronomy 32:22.And Psalms 86:13?
I already posted this on Religions Q&A.But wanted to post it here to get a debate going.Because If I would of stared a debate on Religions Q&A the debate wouldn't have belonged there.
There is no argument. The true living God is a God of justice. He could not condemn one to trillions x trillions x trillions etc etc of never ending years of suffering for 70 to100 years of unrepented sin.
The Hebrew word-Sheol=The grave= the Greek word hades=The grave-Hades = hell.
The NT teachings on eternal suffering is symbolism for the value lost by all who do not enter Gods kingdom. The value is= as each new day dawns, they miss it, it never ends their missing each new day in Gods kingdom.
God is LOVE, not a sadist. Only a sadist could create eternal suffering. Few know the true living God.
osgart
Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Are humans meant to see reality for themselves? Or Should we trust words in a book?
To trust a book responsibly you would have to be a good judge of its infallibility.
A book must show its irrefutability for humans to be responsible to it.
How are all humans subject to the notions of an ancient book? Especially since it can be interpreted in many ways with many languages.
Clarity and obviousness are what the book must show itself to be.
I couldn't possibly be subject to a book that is not clear and obvious to me.
The idea of hell or final death as punishment for being unworthy of life eternal is something people trust based on the words they read alone, and not by any other standard.
The words have to bare witness to the reality of things.
Do people want to spend their whole lives inside of a book, or experience reality for themselves.
At the very least compare the book to what is seen in nature by your own eyes!
I gotta wonder how much blind trust people put into the messages of their religious books.
I can't imagine my eternal destiny being decided by scholarly study. Not everyone is a scholar!
To trust a book responsibly you would have to be a good judge of its infallibility.
A book must show its irrefutability for humans to be responsible to it.
How are all humans subject to the notions of an ancient book? Especially since it can be interpreted in many ways with many languages.
Clarity and obviousness are what the book must show itself to be.
I couldn't possibly be subject to a book that is not clear and obvious to me.
The idea of hell or final death as punishment for being unworthy of life eternal is something people trust based on the words they read alone, and not by any other standard.
The words have to bare witness to the reality of things.
Do people want to spend their whole lives inside of a book, or experience reality for themselves.
At the very least compare the book to what is seen in nature by your own eyes!
I gotta wonder how much blind trust people put into the messages of their religious books.
I can't imagine my eternal destiny being decided by scholarly study. Not everyone is a scholar!