Debate on hell

[FineLinen]

Are humans meant to see reality for themselves? Or Should we trust words in a book?

To trust a book responsibly you would have to be a good judge of its infallibility.

A book must show its irrefutability for humans to be responsible to it.

How are all humans subject to the notions of an ancient book? Especially since it can be interpreted in many ways with many languages.

Clarity and obviousness are what the book must show itself to be.

I couldn't possibly be subject to a book that is not clear and obvious to me.

The idea of hell or final death as punishment for being unworthy of life eternal is something people trust based on the words they read alone, and not by any other standard.

The words have to bare witness to the reality of things.

Do people want to spend their whole lives inside of a book, or experience reality for themselves.

At the very least compare the book to what is seen in nature by your own eyes!

I gotta wonder how much blind trust people put into the messages of their religious books.

I can't imagine my eternal destiny being decided by scholarly study. Not everyone is a scholar!

Osgart: You can search the Scriptures as a scholar, or any persuasion you wish. In the end of your search you hopefully will realize the Master of Reconciliation says "come unto Me." I wish you well in your journey into Him.

 

[FineLinen]

There is no argument. The true living God is a God of justice. He could not condemn one to trillions x trillions x trillions etc etc of never ending years of suffering for 70 to100 years of unrepented sin.
The Hebrew word-Sheol=The grave= the Greek word hades=The grave-Hades = hell.
The NT teachings on eternal suffering is symbolism for the value lost by all who do not enter Gods kingdom. The value is= as each new day dawns, they miss it, it never ends their missing each new day in Gods kingdom.
God is LOVE, not a sadist. Only a sadist could create eternal suffering. Few know the true living God.

God in His essence is not justice. He is indeed just with perfect preceding it. Out of His essence of Love and Light all aspects of His Person are manifest. There is no such thing as eternal suffering within Him.

The love of the Lord never ceases, ever, it is bathed in steadfast.

 

[FineLinen]

 

[FineLinen]

There are four words in koine Greek translated as hell in English. Hell in all forms is NOT the Lake of Fire. All four hells are consummated in the Lake radiating with theion and theioo, rooted in none other than Theos.

 

[allright]

Its simple 2 choices

Jesus said there is a hell

Jesus spoke the truth

Jesus is a liar and deceiver

 

[Wandering Monk]

Its simple 2 choices

Jesus said there is a hell

Jesus spoke the truth

Jesus is a liar and deceiver

This argument is so old and tired. Lewis's trilemma leaves out other options:
1) Jesus never said it.
2) What would you expect a Jew with Pharisaic leanings to believe in that era?

Fundamentalist Christians often use this argument, but it is premised on two things: the inerrancy of the Bible and the divinity of Jesus. If either of those assumptions are not true, the whole argument falls apart.

 

[Muffled]

and the nut-cases of late !

I believe you have to say that tongue in cheek while wearing that hat, lol

 

[Muffled]

Go to 2:50 for an explanation of features about hell not in Judaism but slowly emerged into the religion during this 300 year occupation by the Persians

I believe since the Word is God inspired it is due to progressive revelation not infiltration. God tells us what He wants us to know when He believes we need to know it.

 

[Muffled]

I have to indulge my fantasy of Life, Love, and enough to eat.
My Spirit will go on beyond my limits, joining with the others.
I like to think of all those billions of Spirits corralling in unison.
But that will never, never happen, but pray as you will,
never.

I believe the saying is never say never. However the truth is that you don't really know and are only guessing.

 

[FineLinen]

What is in hell that interest you?

I remembered that the Philippine President mentioned "hell" in one of his fiery speeches.

The present day Hell based on the Bible looks like this

View from above and ............................................... from below

View attachment 40817View attachment 40818

The future fiery hell mentioned in the Bible is to be created by God on Judgement Day.
The book of revelations calls that "the second death"

Not quite. The 2nd death, a.k.a. the Lake of Fire, is the termination of all hell. ALL!

You will NOT find the term aidios timorion (i.e., eternal torment) anywhere in the Scriptures. It is a limited duration or period of time as in aionion kalasin; an age within the ages of time.

 

[FineLinen]

The Prodigal, Father, and Two Lost Sons

What this parable is saying is first of all that, as far as Jesus is concerned, repentance involves not the admission of guilt or the acknowledgement of fault but the confession of death...Confession is not a medicine leading to recovery. If we could recover – if we could say that beginning tomorrow or the week after next we would be well again – why then, all we would need to do would be apologize, not confess. We could simply say that we were sorry about the recent unpleasantness, but that, thank God and the resilience of our better instincts, it is all over now….

But we never recover. We die

And if we live again, it is not because the old parts of our life are jiggled back into line, but because without waiting for realignment, some wholly other life takes up residence in our death. Grace does not do things tit-for-tat; it acts finally and fully from the start.

Confession has nothing to do with getting ourselves forgiven. Confession is not a transaction, not a negotiation in order to secure forgiveness; it is the after-the-last grasp of a corpse that finally can afford to admit it’s dead and accept resurrection. Forgiveness surrounds us, beats upon us all our lives; we confess only to wake ourselves up to what we already have…We are not forgiven, therefore, because we made ourselves forgivable or even because we had faith....

we are forgiven solely because there is a Forgiver. ~Robert Farrar Capon-

 

[Skywalker]

Someone with less patience than I would be tearing his or her hair out right now, totally frustrated with you.

None of the verses you listed from Jewish scripture mention “hell”. From my understanding, your cite to Christian scripture also does not mention “hell”. Your translations are wrong.

What does it take to reach you? How many times do you need to be told that the translation used by you is faulty before that fact sinks in?

Is your memory that bad that you cannot remember that you have asked the same questions time after time after time...... and that you have been the same answers time after time after time?

If that is the case then it’s time you seek professional help.

The Jewish Scriptures mention hell in the verses about Sheol and Psalms.

 

[Skywalker]

Not quite. The 2nd death, a.k.a. the Lake of Fire, is the termination of all hell. ALL!

You will NOT find the term aidios timorion (i.e., eternal torment) anywhere in the Scriptures. It is a limited duration or period of time as in aionion kalasin; an age within the ages of time.

Aoinios means eternal.

 

[FineLinen]

Aoinios means eternal.

Aionios = everlasting

Aidios = eternal

Aidios Meaning in Bible - New Testament Greek Lexicon - King James Version

 

[Skywalker]

Aionios = everlasting

Aidios = eternal

Aidios Meaning in Bible - New Testament Greek Lexicon - King James Version

Since Greek like all languages has nuance, everlasting in some contexts can mean eternal. Rob Bell: Populating Hell | Good Fight Ministries

Eternal or Temporal Punishment?

By claimng that the unrepentant wicked will have a chance to get to Heaven from Hell, Rob Bell has gone beyond that of Edward W. Fudge, who states in The Fire That Consumes, “the wicked, following whatever degree and duration of pain that God may justly inflict, will finally and truly die, perish and become extinct for ever and ever.” (Fudge, The Fire That Consumes, 1982, p. 425)

While Fudge softened what the scriptures actually state about Hell’s duration, Bell has taken it a step further and advocated a form of universalism, claiming that most, if not all, who go to Hell, will someday spend eternity in Heaven.

Rob Bell wants us to believe that the words translated “eternal,” in relation to Hell’s duration, like the noun ‘aion’ and the adjective ‘aionios’, only mean ‘age’. The truth is that the words ‘aion’ and ‘aionios’ can refer to an age or, ‘all eternity’.

In the Olivet discourse, after revealing that He will separate the righteous from the wicked like a shepherd separates sheep from the goats (Matthew 25:31-45), Jesus states that the wicked “shall go away into eternal [aionios] punishment: but the righteous into eternal [aionios] life.” (Matthew 25:46, ASV)

Jesus employed the exact adjective ‘aionios’ to describe the duration of Hell as He did for Heaven. If Hell is merely temporal, then so is Heaven! Would Bell claim that believers will only enjoy temporal life in Heaven and then cease to exist or go to Hell? I think not! Thus, if we acknowledge that Jesus was using ‘aionios’ to describe the eternal duration of life that the righteous will experience, it is an inescapable conclusion that He used ‘aionios’ to describe the eternal duration of the punishment of the wicked.

Rob Bell is utterly and unconscionably careless with the scriptures on such an important subject as where the lost will ultimately spend eternity. He would have us believe that Matthew 25:46 merely refers to an “age of pruning” rather than “eternal punishment” (p. 91). Bell claims that the Greek reads ‘aion’ (a noun), and ‘kolazo’ (a verb), in Matthew 25:46. When in reality, it is ‘kolasin’ (a noun), and ‘aionion’ (an adjective), with the adjective ‘aionion’ modifying punishment (literally, ‘eternal’ punishment).

Since the same adjective ‘aionios’ modifies the duration of life and punishment in the very same verse, sound and unbiased exegesis must conclude that all those who go to Hell, as described by Jesus in 25:46, will suffer eternal punishment.

Nobody ever accused Bell of being a careful and exacting exegete of Holy Scripture; but tragically, his misrepresentation of Jesus’ teaching will likely have a disastrous affect on the souls he is misleading.

Rob Bell errs greatly in that the Greek word ‘aionion’ is used 50 times to describe the eternal life of the believer (John 3:15-16, 10:28, Romans 5:21, 6:23) and it is used repeatedly to describe God’s eternal nature (Romans 16:26, 1 Timothy 6:16, Hebrews 9:14). It is even used to emphasize the unending eternity we will experience as believers, in contrast to the temporal age of the present material world.

“For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal.” –2 Corinthians 4:18

Thus, it makes far more sense to understand ‘aionion’ to express that which is eternal when it comes to the duration of the punishment of the wicked (Matthew 18:8, 25:41, 25:46, 2 Thessalonians 1:9, Jude 7). All of this undermines Bell’s lame attempt to get his audience to see the word as an exclusive reference to a temporal age or quality of life; especially, when eternal life is contrasted with eternal punishment in the very same verse (Matthew 25:46).

 

[FineLinen]

Since Greek like all languages has nuance, everlasting in some contexts can mean eternal. Rob Bell: Populating Hell | Good Fight Ministries

Marvin R. Vincent: Note on ‘eternal destruction’ (Olethron Aionion) – Mercy Upon All

 

[Muffled]

The Jewish Scriptures mention hell in the verses about Sheol and Psalms.

I believe the Jewish scriptures never mention hell. Sheol is the grave not hell.

 

[Skywalker]

I believe the Jewish scriptures never mention hell. Sheol is the grave not hell.

Why does the Bible mention the wicked being turned to hell if hell isn't mentioned in the Old Testament?

 

[Colt]

Hell equals death. Jesus taught life eternal or death eternal. The gospel writers or later translators used hell for eternal death.

Jesus would have spoken the common language of the day which was Aramaic.

English "Gehenna" represents the Greek Geenna (Γέεννα) found in the New Testament, a phonetic transcription of Aramaic Gēhannā (ܓܝܗܢܐ), equivalent to the Hebrew Ge Hinnom, literally "Valley of Hinnom".

 

[Colt]

That's Hell or Gehenna today. I was there a couple years ago and snapped this photo. I just had to go to hell while in Jerusalem as people have been telling me to go to hell for years. Its a lovely park now.