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Decent Opposition

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm unsure how we can come up with "decent opposition." I am opposed to rightwing ideology. I am opposed to the general thrust of rightwing government. What has "decent" got to do with it? :shrug:
Well, as a Conservative I believe that the left has historically had some decent arguments against certain right wing economic policies or other measures. It's a decent opposition in that it did its job and pointed out real flaws in right wing thinking and, in the aftermath of WWII for instance, the right listened and began supporting measures such as the NHS.
 

Secret Chief

Degrow!
Well, as a Conservative I believe that the left has historically had some decent arguments against certain right wing economic policies or other measures. It's a decent opposition in that it did its job and pointed out real flaws in right wing thinking and, in the aftermath of WWII for instance, the right listened and began supporting measures such as the NHS.
And now?
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm not sure what you mean?

Can you think of anything where the left may have listened to the right? I can think of Corbynites being pushed out for being too radical and our Labour party becoming more centrist after seeing their ideas were not as popular as they thought.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
So I'm seeing a lot of 'You can be conservative just don't be socially conservative'

Which is, imo, saying 'you can be conservative as long as you're not actually conservative'/ 'You can be conservative as long as you support the left's moral positions'?

This is kind of making my point.

'You get to be the opposition as long as you agree with me.'

If someone wants to restrict or reduce rights, liberty, and equality for others, then they can't be "legitimate, good opposition".
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
So what if I said, 'You can be on the left and support ssm just don't place your moral views actually in legislation'.

This isn't any different.
Yes it is. I strongly disagree with many religions, yet I fully support their right to believe and practice as they wish, as long they don't violate the rights of others in the process.
 

Sand Dancer

Crazy Cat Lady
But you make there be no way to actually be a social conservative in politics and actually act in accordance with your views to do what you think would improve the country. You've effectively just banned social conservatism.

Why not just give people the freedom to choose how they want to live and you choose the way you live? To limit what other people do is not very ethical. Maximize freedom and that gives everyone the choice to live the way they want, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
Is it possible that the party that is opposing yours can not be evil?


Of course. I'm a Labour Party man through and through, but there have been many Conservative politicians I've admired or at least respected.

Harold Macmillan was a patrician Tory, old soldier of the officer class, who had a sense of duty towards the other ranks. Edward Heath was an oddball, but his instincts appear to have been benign. I disagreed with Margaret Thatcher on just about everything she ever stood for, but will concede that she was sincere in her (to me misguided) beliefs. John Major's romanticised vision of England- cricket on the village green, church choirs at evensong, warm beer and a cheese ploughman's in a country pub - I could identify with.

But don't get me started on the 21st century mob.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
There's pretty much a black and white attitude in politics these days, with each side branding the other 'Fascists' or 'ideology driven idiots' or whatever other defamatory words are used. It's led me to ask, What would you see as decent opposition? If you're on the right or the left, what would you accept as being not in some way totally intrinsically evil political opposition? It seems no matter what these days if you're on x side you're a Fascist or a neo-Soviet or whatever else with absolutely no room whatsoever to just be part of a political platform that has different views.

I mean, I'm on the right, but I accept as a given that the left supports things I don't, such as higher taxes, globalisation (generally), high migration, gay marriage, unionising and so on. I don't think this makes them intrinsically evil; I do think if these policies are implemented it will not be good for my country, but will it be literally the end of the UK? Probably not. I can listen to some on the left and understand their arguments, their economic ones in particular, and take some on board - as many European Conservatives have done in the past.

So what would you see as legitimate, good opposition? Be reasonable, don't just say 'They agree with me on everything except xyz', because that just defeats the point.
I don’t think that just because someone is on the Right they are automatically a fascist or neo Nazi or whatever.
That said, it’s hard not to label certain groups on the right as such. By that I mean groups that literally act like fascists or neo Nazis like the infamous “proud boys” for example. And to be fair the left has “tankies” so it’s not like either side is without extremists.
I can accept that someone is against the things I am because I’m a leftist.
What I am against though is lack of empathy. Doesn’t matter the politics involved. Because it ends up just being performative cruelty
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
Of course. I'm a Labour Party man through and through, but there have been many Conservative politicians I've admired or at least respected.

Harold Macmillan was a patrician Tory, old soldier of the officer class, who had a sense of duty towards the other ranks. Edward Heath was an oddball, but his instincts appear to have been benign. I disagreed with Margaret Thatcher on just about everything she ever stood for, but will concede that she was sincere in her (to me misguided) beliefs. John Major's romanticised vision of England- cricket on the village green, church choirs at evensong, warm beer and a cheese ploughman's in a country pub - I could identify with.

But don't get me started on the 21st century mob.
Yes, both 'Old Labour' and 'Old Tories' were much better and could at least seem to work together way better than this crowd.

This is what I mean. Why is this so hard now?
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes, both 'Old Labour' and 'Old Tories' were much better and could at least seem to work together way better than this crowd.

This is what I mean. Why is this so hard now?
It could be that both sides have drifted further apart?
I mean even the hardcore lefties I follow (US based) seem to miss the old school republicans. Seeing the MAGA “Trump cult” as far too extreme to compromise with.

As I’m an Aussie our divide is seemingly far less severe. Through there does seem to be growing support for our “outsider parties.”
(Political parties that are not the two major ones.)
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
I think a lot of 'evil' in politics got its support from 'Citizens United'. Before such time we did have pretty decent opposition. The last such race I remember was Obama vs McCain.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
I think a lot of 'evil' in politics got its support from 'Citizens United'. Before such time we did have pretty decent opposition. The last such race I remember was Obama vs McCain.
What’s Citizens United?
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
Yes, both 'Old Labour' and 'Old Tories' were much better and could at least seem to work together way better than this crowd.

This is what I mean. Why is this so hard now?


Everything seems very polarised right now. I don't know why that is, but it seems to have something to do with the way the media thrives on division. Not just the traditional news media, social media also seems to work this away.

Eventually though, we'll all get tired of pointing fingers at each other.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
What’s Citizens United?

David Bossie
Website CitizensUnited.org
Citizens United is a conservative 501(c)(4) nonprofit organization in the United States founded in 1988. In 2010, the organization won a U.S. Supreme Court case known as Citizens United v. FEC, which struck down as unconstitutional a federal law prohibiting corporations and unions from making expenditures in connection with federal elections.

While wealthy donors, corporations, and special interest groups have long had an outsized influence in elections, that sway has dramatically expanded since the Citizens United decision, with negative repercussions for American democracy and the fight against political corruption.

The ruling has ushered in massive increases in political spending from outside groups, dramatically expanding the already outsized political influence of wealthy donors, corporations, and special interest groups.
Citizens United Explained | Brennan Center for Justice
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
There's pretty much a black and white attitude in politics these days, with each side branding the other 'Fascists' or 'ideology driven idiots' or whatever other defamatory words are used. It's led me to ask, What would you see as decent opposition? If you're on the right or the left, what would you accept as being not in some way totally intrinsically evil political opposition? It seems no matter what these days if you're on x side you're a Fascist or a neo-Soviet or whatever else with absolutely no room whatsoever to just be part of a political platform that has different views.

I mean, I'm on the right, but I accept as a given that the left supports things I don't, such as higher taxes, globalisation (generally), high migration, gay marriage, unionising and so on. I don't think this makes them intrinsically evil; I do think if these policies are implemented it will not be good for my country, but will it be literally the end of the UK? Probably not. I can listen to some on the left and understand their arguments, their economic ones in particular, and take some on board - as many European Conservatives have done in the past.

So what would you see as legitimate, good opposition? Be reasonable, don't just say 'They agree with me on everything except xyz', because that just defeats the point.
When I was younger, I saw quite a bit of common ground between the right and left. It was easy to think that they had similar goals of making the country better, but just disagreed about the best ways to achieve them.

A few things changed my mind on this:

- Mike Harris's "Common Sense Revolution." After he was elected premier of Ontario in 1995, I watched him and his political allies vilify nurses and teachers, and cut environmental inspectors to the point that 2000 people got sick and 6 people died from one contaminated drinking water incident.

- the same-sex marriage debate came to a head here in the early 2000s. I watched conservatives argue against basic human rights of people they disagreed with.

Those two things gave me the "aha!" moment that, often, my previous assumption was wrong and conservatives aren't just trying to make the country better by other means.

Since then, I've seen it repeated over and over: right-wing tribalism trying to further disadvantage the already-disadvantaged and protect injustice just because it's old.

There are still plenty of fiscal conservatives who I'm fine with and can count as friends... but these are conservatives of the "let's think about long-term sustainability when designing our social supports" variety, not the "let's not spend money on social supports because screw the poor" variety.

I see certain issues - e.g. LGBTQ rights, women's rights, indigenous rights - where certain positions are necessarily unethical or immoral. And I see right-wingers take these unethical and immoral positions all the time.

I've reached a point in my life where I'm more interested in being a good friend to my LGBTQ friends than I am in trying to be chummy with someone who's trying to hurt my friend.

You may not see the positions from across the aisle as intrinsically evil, but that's not how I feel about a lot of right wing positions. Pretty much anything that involves victimizing vulnerable people crosses a line for me.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Is it possible that the party that is opposing yours can not be evil?
I voted Conservative in the past and still respect many old-school Conservatives.

There was a major change here with the merger of the Conservatives and the Reform Party, though. The result was something much more extreme and just meaner than the Conservative Party from when I was a kid.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
It could be that both sides have drifted further apart?
I mean even the hardcore lefties I follow (US based) seem to miss the old school republicans. Seeing the MAGA “Trump cult” as far too extreme to compromise with.

As I’m an Aussie our divide is seemingly far less severe. Through there does seem to be growing support for our “outsider parties.”
(Political parties that are not the two major ones.)

That's just it. The MAGA cult is so tribal, out of touch, and unhinged that it's impossible to find middle ground. Unfortunately most conservatives in the U.S. seem to be on that bandwagon, and those that aren't are ostracized.
 
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