Decent Opposition

[SomeRandom]

That's just it. The MAGA cult is so tribal, out of touch, and unhinged that it's impossible to find middle ground.

Well going by the reactions I’ve seen to the recent election, I would have to agree with you

 

[Father Heathen]

Well going by the reactions I’ve seen to the recent election, I would have to agree with you

One only has to look at how they behaved during the pandemic and the Jan 6 insurrection to realize that they're not reasonable or rational. In their view, they're the heroes and anyone who isn't wholly aligned with them are the villains, so of course they're not "decent opposition".

 

[pearl]

McCain's running mate, however...

Well, that's a whole different matter. I really believe she contributed to his loss. She was a Trump with lipstick. She was going to recast the role of VP, of course with her very limited knowledge of how things worked, the role of the VP is defined in the Constitution. And she was beside herself because they wouldn't allow her to make her own concession speech.

 

[SomeRandom]

One only has to look at how they behaved during the pandemic and the Jan 6 insurrection to realize that they're not reasonable or rational. In their view, they're the heroes and anyone who isn't wholly aligned with them are the villains, so of course they're not "decent opposition".

Oh I saw that live on stream. Granted it was mostly through lefties reacting to it live, but still. And yeah they were calling each other freedom fighters and patting each other on the back.
I then saw it on our news and even some of the conservatives were beyond appalled. Calling the behaviour childish, thuggish and I swear I heard one host mumble something about a “collapse of dignity” lol
Regardless the world watched in dismay at such riots.

 

[Father Heathen]

Well, that's a whole different matter. I really believe she contributed to his loss. She was a Trump with lipstick. She was going to recast the role of VP, of course with her very limited knowledge of how things worked, the role of the VP is defined in the Constitution. And she was beside herself because they wouldn't allow her to make her own concession speech.

Yeah, I believe McCain regretted and resented her afterwards.

 

[Father Heathen]

Oh I saw that live on stream. Granted it was mostly through lefties reacting to it live, but still. And yeah they were calling each other freedom fighters and patting each other on the back.
I then saw it on our news and even some of the conservatives were beyond appalled. Calling the behaviour childish, thuggish and I swear I heard one host mumble something about a “collapse of dignity” lol
Regardless the world watched in dismay at such riots.

Childish indeed. Anything that doesn't go their way, be it news or an election, is "fake/hoax". These Trumpy times will go down as an embarrassing stain on U.S. history.

 

[Secret Chief]

I'm not sure what you mean?

I meant as in you spoke of a historical occurence; what about modern times - Johnson, Truss, Rees-Mogg?

Can you think of anything where the left may have listened to the right? I can think of Corbynites being pushed out for being too radical and our Labour party becoming more centrist after seeing their ideas were not as popular as they thought.

This simply highlights how our perspectives are so totally different. The Labour Party is supposedly a socialist party. I don't envision a socialist party winning a FPTP GE for various reasons (changes in society, domination of the media by rightwing interests etc), but it was good to try - I voted for Corbyn, I met him, I sat by him at a local Party meeting and I won a FBU T-shirt with his signature on. A Starmer-led centrist government is better than a tory government. It isn't about the left listening to the right, it's simply a swing in the party towards "it's better to get a centrist party into power rather than remain a socialist opposition forever." I was talking to my ex-MP the other day and unsurprisingly he said if Labour can't get in against this appalling **** show of a tory party then it never will get in.

 

[SomeRandom]

Childish indeed. Anything that doesn't go their way, be it news or an election, is "fake/hoax". These Trumpy times will go down as an embarrassing stain on U.S. history.

It was certainly an experience to witness, ngl
I asked my uncle (who is so conservative he wants the literal monarchy back!) about this.
His response was basically
“These crybabies need to grow tf up and act like adults. “
When I asked his opinion on Trump’s response he basically said
“If you lose, then you lose, you don’t get to cry about it. He should have taken it on the chin like a man.”

Well that’s the censored version anyway lol

 

[Sand Dancer]

Well, that's a whole different matter. I really believe she contributed to his loss. She was a Trump with lipstick. She was going to recast the role of VP, of course with her very limited knowledge of how things worked, the role of the VP is defined in the Constitution. And she was beside herself because they wouldn't allow her to make her own concession speech.

She totally wore her religion on her sleeve and would have governed that way.

 

[Quintessence]

There's a saying that is sometimes floated around in the Pagan scene which goes something like this:

Live and let live. Fairly take and fairly give.
​

A major problem with the Death Party these days is they don't do this. There used to be a Republican Party in this country. I used to vote for their candidates on occasion. Then they became co-opted by the Death Party. And this party lost any and all patience from me when they successfully conspired to deprive women of the most basic and fundamental of all human rights - the right of bodily autonomy. The lack of bodily autonomy is called slavery. A lot of their other pro-death policies I can overlook (barely) but veritable enslavement of pregnant people to the government? That's a level of sick, twisted evil I find utterly unconscionable.

 

[Left Coast]

There's pretty much a black and white attitude in politics these days, with each side branding the other 'Fascists' or 'ideology driven idiots' or whatever other defamatory words are used. It's led me to ask, What would you see as decent opposition? If you're on the right or the left, what would you accept as being not in some way totally intrinsically evil political opposition? It seems no matter what these days if you're on x side you're a Fascist or a neo-Soviet or whatever else with absolutely no room whatsoever to just be part of a political platform that has different views.

I mean, I'm on the right, but I accept as a given that the left supports things I don't, such as higher taxes, globalisation (generally), high migration, gay marriage, unionising and so on. I don't think this makes them intrinsically evil; I do think if these policies are implemented it will not be good for my country, but will it be literally the end of the UK? Probably not. I can listen to some on the left and understand their arguments, their economic ones in particular, and take some on board - as many European Conservatives have done in the past.

So what would you see as legitimate, good opposition? Be reasonable, don't just say 'They agree with me on everything except xyz', because that just defeats the point.

As someone with many conservative relatives, this is an interesting question. I'm able, to some degree, to separate the person from their politics when it comes to conservatives I know. I regard many of their positions as awful, even downright immoral. But I tend to see them more as confused and indoctrinated rather than malicious in their conservatism. And as individuals, many of them are the sort I would even have a beer with, and who would probably give you the shirt off their back if you needed it and politics never came up.

The type of conservatives (and libertarians) I most respect tend to be those of the Never Trump sort who have a fundamental understanding and respect for democracy and constitutionalism and science. They may disagree with the left on policy (and often make reasonable points in that regard) but don't live on a completely different planet in terms of their understanding of reality.

The issue with many modern conservatives in the populist Trumpian mold is that they have fallen so far down their partisan rabbit hole that they embrace conspiracies about COVID, think Trump won in 2020, think Hillary organized a sex trafficking ring out of a pizza shop, etc. It's near impossible to have a meaningful conversation on politics with such folks because they are just so far out in left field they have left the stadium.

I feel like I've gone on long enough, I'll leave it there for now.

 

[Wandering Monk]

Don't parents teach their children that they can't always get what they want? Why don't politicians understand this one basic thing.

 

[pearl]

But I tend to see them more as confused and indoctrinated rather than malicious in their conservatism. And as individuals, many of them are the sort I would even have a beer with, and who would probably give you the shirt off their back if you needed it and politics never came up.

I think it comes down to a question of identity for many, especially Christian conservatives, they are first of all Christians who happen to live in the USA.

 

[Mister Emu]

I regard many of their positions as awful, even downright immoral. But I tend to see them more as confused and indoctrinated rather than malicious in their conservatism. And as individuals, many of them are the sort I would even have a beer with, and who would probably give you the shirt off their back if you needed it and politics never came up.

D'aww, I knew we had a place in your heart.

The type of conservatives (and libertarians) I most respect tend to be those of the Never Trump sort

Darn.

I generally take the left and the conservative's everyman as a person who is trying, no matter how little I agree or even can understand the thought processes involved, to muddle through life and politics as best as they can. So even when I see a despicably evil policy, like abortion "rights", or mass surveillance, or compliancy with the crimes of the "intelligence community", or production or maintenance of a state of war, or rejection of the social obligation, I generally do my best to internalize that there is a gap of some sort, whether knowledge, intuition, wisdom, or whatever, that prevents our meeting of minds. I haven't seen a good society in my life, so we've all been surrounded by a culture that aims to produce malformed consciences, particularly in the west an egocentric malformation; there are going to be casualties (not enemies).

That doesn't apply to the tops, the Bushes, Clintons, Obamas and Cheneys, the Kochs and the Soroses, they know what they are doing.

 

[Left Coast]

I generally take the left and the conservative's everyman as a person who is trying, no matter how little I agree or even can understand the thought processes involved, to muddle through life and politics as best as they can.

On that we agree!

So even when I see a despicably evil policy, like abortion "rights", or mass surveillance, or compliancy with the crimes of the "intelligence community", or production or maintenance of a state of war,

Other than abortion, I think we actually agree on all that.

or rejection of the social obligation,

I'd have to know what this means to comment.

I generally do my best to internalize that there is a gap of some sort, whether knowledge, intuition, wisdom, or whatever, that prevents our meeting of minds. I haven't seen a good society in my life,

I'm reminded of a conversation I have been having with @Xavier Graham here. I don't see societies (or people) as binaries of either good or evil. All societies have good elements and bad elements. In the West, I would say our societies do (and support the doing of) a lot of good, despite our shortcomings.

 

[Mister Emu]

I'd have to know what this means to comment.

Sorry, the obligation of society to help everyone achieve their best/actualized/fulfilled lives.

I don't see societies (or people) as binaries of either good or evil. All societies have good elements and bad elements. In the West, I would say our societies do (and support the doing of) a lot of good, despite our shortcomings.

Society being unable to be called good doesn't carry the meaning that we do nothing beneficial. It's the same as a recognition of those shortcomings, that there are parts of our society that are damaging and promote a malformed conscience, or act as a barrier to its proper formation.

 

[Left Coast]

Sorry, the obligation of society to help everyone achieve their best/actualized/fulfilled lives.

As an abstract concept I think this sounds good. I suspect we have different policy ideas of how to enable people to live their best lives.

Society being unable to be called good doesn't carry the meaning that we do nothing beneficial. It's the same as a recognition of those shortcomings, that there are parts of our society that are damaging and promote a malformed conscience, or act as a barrier to its proper formation.

To me, good and beneficial are essentially synonymous. So if we're doing beneficial things, we're doing good things. Again, I don't think it's helpful to label entire societies as generalizations of "good" or "evil" (some truly brutal dictatorship might be an exception) anyway. We're all a complicated, messy mix. And that's also how I see people.