Decline of Christianity and Religion

[IndigoChild5559]

Then go for it IC, write a thesis on the religious awareness of monkeys. Figure out if they're Christian, Muslim, Buddhist or they've discovered other gods?
Does their god tell them not to kill other animals, or always treat their masters, siblings or parents with respect?
Do they hold charity events, or give alms to raise money for monkey widows or orphans?
Oh, did i mention credulity and absurdity, ...I hope so!

I don't need to write a thesis. All I need to do is refer people to the scientific studies.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

No, neither. I already explained dogs, and as far as elephants go, such an activity is not comprehensive enough to conclude anything definitively. That goes without saying.

Okay, well at lest I know now that you don't have a good grasp on realtiy.

 

[metis]

All organisms have what we can call a "pecking order", namely some genetic "rules" that they are programmed to follow-- although not all within a species do just that.

But what we also know is that many species use reason, which goes well beyond just being genetically programmed. Adult chimps, for example, tend to have such a capacity whereas they reason at around the 2-year-old human child level. Experiments done with Washoe [chimp] showed significant cognitive abilities.

 

[DNB]

From my perspective, this goes back to what we spoke about before with the self-centeredness of animals. Humans, as animals, have an innate self-centeredness rooted in a desire to survive. However we are paradoxically a social species that has evolved in such a way that it benefits us to cooperate with each other. So this means that within us we have competing desires - desires to act hedonistically and selfishly, purely for our own benefit, but also care and love for other people around us and a desire to help them, even at our own expense.

You can describe this internal conflict as "spiritual" if you like. I might prefer the term psychological, or ethical. In any case, what I think we see in ourselves is a more complex and nuanced version of what we see evidenced in other social animals at a more rudimentary level.

You're not addressing the absurd nature of man's behaviour. There's a regression to his evolution that he will behave in a manner that is antithetical to his survival. Again, typical of all men, and not of that of non-humans. Man will do things by his own volition that will invariably lead to his destruction. Smoking cigarettes: who thought that that was a good idea? Substance addictions: how much does one have to lose before they recognize the destructive aspect of their daily habits? Racism: who came up with the idea that man will progress to his betterment and societies development, if we hire and promote based on skin colour? Beauty and wealth: who decided that these were the measurements of the competency and worth of a person? And I haven't even mentioned the more sinister and egregious habits of man.

There's an undeniable evil in the world, that clearly displays the existence of evil forces within the spiritual realms. And the fact that man can recognize these influences and that animals don't, evidences the disparity in constitution between these two incompatible species.

 

[DNB]

No, scientific research is not the same as an anecdote. You apparently don't know what an anecdote is.

You apparently don't know what scientific research is. A solitary test on monkeys to prove that animals are religious? How would you compare the compelling aspect of that evidence, compared to all the testimony that we have to prove man's innate and incessant religious propensities?
Again, the monkey evidence is misinterpreted.

 

[DNB]

I don't need to write a thesis. All I need to do is refer people to the scientific studies.

There are many things that science cannot explain. God is spirit, how can a scientist either explain or evidence such an entity?

 

[DNB]

Okay, well at lest I know now that you don't have a good grasp on realtiy.

There are many theories in the world IC, of all topics and issues, created by countless scientists and scholars - academia is no guarantee for truth. With all the divergent views in the world, this fact should be obvious. You can't keep making an appeal to science as an attempt to underscore your position.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

You apparently don't know what scientific research is. A solitary test on monkeys to prove that animals are religious? How would you compare the compelling aspect of that evidence, compared to all the testimony that we have to prove man's innate and incessant religious propensities?
Again, the monkey evidence is misinterpreted.

You think this test was not replicated?

Yes, the test they did on thet monkeys was scientific research, not an anecdote.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

There are many things that science cannot explain. God is spirit, how can a scientist either explain or evidence such an entity?

Of course. I believe in God, even though God is beyond the pervue of science.

 

[DNB]

You think this test was not replicated?

Yes, the test they did on thet monkeys was scientific research, not an anecdote.

As far as the anecdote is concerned, which was the religious issue, I was referring to the alleged tree shrine (for crying out loud).

 

[DNB]

Of course. I believe in God, even though God is beyond the pervue of science.

Well then, what about the forces that He exudes upon man, like the image that man was created in? And here you are defending that same spirit in monkeys, let alone based on scientific methodologies???
And, of course, as i have displayed enough based on fundamental reasons, my position is not derived from blind adherence to Genesis 1:27.
You, of all people, should be appreciating my position more than anyone else - for both reasons of faith and empirical evidence.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..And here you are defending that same spirit in monkeys..

I don't think that anybody who believes in G-d is saying that human souls are no different than others.
Humans have responsibility for their actions while other creatures don't.

It is humans who govern the planet, as G-d has decreed.

 

[DNB]

I don't think that anybody who believes in G-d is saying that human souls are no different than others.
Humans have responsibility for their actions while other creatures don't.

It is humans who govern the planet, as G-d has decreed.

But, they are saying otherwise. IndigoChild clearly believes that Monkeys have a sense of both justice and religion. And thus, as you stated very well, can be held accountable.
Everything that you wrote, except for your assumption about all God fearers, was profoundly correct!
But, if it's any consolation, I would've made the assumption as yourself to a large degree, ..at least, it should be the case!

 

[Tiberius]

No, it came true. After Jesus the Jews went into exile for 1800 and suffered terrible persecutions
'because they did not know the time of their visitation.'

You don't expect me to be convinced by that, do you?

 

[Tiberius]

Having a sense of justice is much more comprehensive than what you are making it out to be.

Citation required.

In that, ultimately, I said only humans build religious edifices, worship gods, legislate laws, mourn the loss of their loved ones, decry injustices even when they're not directly affected by it, has a conscience that burns when their guilty, rebuke others for doing wrong, etc...

And why is the fact that only humans build religious edifices, worship gods, legislate laws, mourn the loss of their loved ones, decry injustices even when they're not directly affected by it, has a conscience that burns when their guilty, rebuke others for doing wrong, etc required for a sense of injustice?

In other words, don't come to me with a single flippin' anecdote about two monkeys in a controlled environment. It's too silly to discuss.

You are the only one who seems to have a problem with it.

 

[Left Coast]

You're not addressing the absurd nature of man's behaviour. There's a regression to his evolution that he will behave in a manner that is antithetical to his survival. Again, typical of all men, and not of that of non-humans. Man will do things by his own volition that will invariably lead to his destruction. Smoking cigarettes: who thought that that was a good idea? Substance addictions: how much does one have to lose before they recognize the destructive aspect of their daily habits? Racism: who came up with the idea that man will progress to his betterment and societies development, if we hire and promote based on skin colour? Beauty and wealth: who decided that these were the measurements of the competency and worth of a person? And I haven't even mentioned the more sinister and egregious habits of man.

The thing is, non-human animals do things that are antithetical to their own survival all the time. Most species die out. On addiction - you're aware that we know other animals can be and have been addicted to a variety of substances, yes?

There's an undeniable evil in the world, that clearly displays the existence of evil forces within the spiritual realms.

I don't see how we need to posit a "spiritual realm" for any of those things, or even what that term adds to the discussion. What does that mean?

And the fact that man can recognize these influences and that animals don't, evidences the disparity in constitution between these two incompatible species.

Humans are animals. There are many animal species, not just two, besides humans.

 

[ajay0]

why do you suppose christianity is on the decline? evidently religion is on the decline altogether.

a pew research poll shows christianity down 12% from a decade ago.
Christians continue to make up a majority of the U.S. populace, but their share of the adult population is 12 points lower in 2021 than it was in 2011. In addition, the share of U.S. adults who say they pray on a daily basis has been trending downward, as has the share who say religion is “very important” in their lives.

Imho, Christianity at present is a highly modified and editted version of the original Christianity taught by Christ.

The romans, while being proficient in war, administration and political science, were not adept in spirituality and a religious culture.

This modification and edition of the Christian scriptures happened when the Romans finally accepted Christianity after centuries of brutal persecution of Christians. In the councils of nicea and constantinople that followed, they editted the bible as per their fancies and sensibilities, made their version the standard version, and banned all that varied.

This probably resulted in the Christian scriptures being perceived as incoherent and insensible to people, especially those in present times who are educated and think critically.

This incoherence is however due to the unscrupulous editions of the Bible by the romans and not due to any fault of Christ. I would say it is not just Christ, but the bible itself was crucified by the Romans. It became more of a control mechanism to condition the rebellious christians to be more passive and deferential to roman authority. The roman empire collapsed centuries back but its legacy in the form of the edited bible remains today as well.

Imo, the original teachings of Christ was more of a comprehensive and complete system, and just a shadow of it remains today.

It is quite possible that the original Christianity had the theme of enlightenment, just like sufism, buddhism and hinduism.

Original christianity , as I see it, is very similar to Sufism, where there exists the theme of enlightenment.

Like Jesus Christ, the enlightened sufi sage Mansur Al Hallaj was similarly tortured and killed by the orthodox section and rulers for alleged blasphemy.

He is best known for his saying: "I am the Truth" (Ana'l-aqq), eerily similar to Jesus's own statement "I and the Father are one." ~ Jesus Christ (John 10:30).

I think the original scriptures of Christianity , if they exist, should be retrieved, studied by scholars and this can help fill in the gaps of incoherence in the bible, and help make it more intellectually palatable.

 

[PruePhillip]

You don't expect me to be convinced by that, do you?

Sure.
1 - can you point to any ethnic group which has been as consistently persecuted as Jews?
2 - do you know of any ethnic group which has lost so many lives (adjusted for population, ie Crusaders)
3 - what group face the most ancient of all racist hatreds in the Western world?
4 - which ethnic group was driven out of over one hundred countries?
5 - the bible said the Jews would be exiled and return twice, did that happen?

 

[Tiberius]

Sure.
1 - can you point to any ethnic group which has been as consistently persecuted as Jews?
2 - do you know of any ethnic group which has lost so many lives (adjusted for population, ie Crusaders)
3 - what group face the most ancient of all racist hatreds in the Western world?
4 - which ethnic group was driven out of over one hundred countries?
5 - the bible said the Jews would be exiled and return twice, did that happen?

So what?

The Jews being heavily persecuted means nothing. Lot's of groups have been heavily persecuted. Have you seen how heavily Christians are persecuted?

Persecution of Christians - Wikipedia

Christian Persecution

You seem to think that the Jews having been treated really badly for a really long time is proof that your religious claims are correct. But you have NOT shown that such persecution is only explainable by your claims being correct. Until you do that, your claims are not believable.

 

[PruePhillip]

So what?

The Jews being heavily persecuted means nothing. Lot's of groups have been heavily persecuted. Have you seen how heavily Christians are persecuted?

Persecution of Christians - Wikipedia

Christian Persecution

You seem to think that the Jews having been treated really badly for a really long time is proof that your religious claims are correct. But you have NOT shown that such persecution is only explainable by your claims being correct. Until you do that, your claims are not believable.

No, wot I mean is that the bible said these things of the Jews long before they happened.
A few that come to mind
1 - the Jews would be small in number (there should be about 250 million of them today, but there's only a tenth of that.)
2 - the Jew will be a blessing to the world (look at Hollywood, industry, science awards etc..)
3 - the Jew will be universally hated
4 - whoever blesses the Jew will be blessed, whoever curses the Jew will be cursed.
5 - the Jew will not be extinct (ie like the Phillistines, Amonites, Amalakites etc..)
6 - the Jew will be exiled and their host nations will be their 'graves'
7 - the Jew will return a second time and take back their land with the sword

lots of others... just typing quickly here
Can't remember his name, but one skeptical European king said the only reason he really believed in the bible is the continued
presence of the Jew - if they weren't ultimately God's people then how could they have survive their brutal treatment.