Decline of Christianity and Religion

[Tiberius]

Again, that's not a protest towards the principle of injustice. It was a selfish reaction. As you saw, the other monkey did not protest, he was pleased with the favoured and unequal treatment, as would the upset monkey be had the treatment been reversed.
You are really not getting the point.

So what?

If you do a job and get paid $100, and then you see someone else do the same job and they get paid $500, wouldn't you get upset because you recognise that you were being treated unfairly?

You want to make it about how Monkey 2 didn't protest, therefore we can't assume that Monkey 1 wasn't upset about being treated unfairly. But that just isn't a rational conclusion.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

My actual quote IC was , 'animals do no pray to God, build shrines or temples or altars, where burkas or yarmulkes or turbans, they have no sense or morality or justice, and they kill indiscriminately without a conscience plagued with remorse, etc...'

The thing is, chimpanzees DO build tree shrines.

 

[PruePhillip]

No, you made claims. Show how you reached the figures you quoted. Because it seems to me like it's just guessing.

Some, like probability of Judah being the monarch in waiting is clearly 1/12
Some, like the chance the Hebrews would be the dominant Semite group can
only be fully assertained by knowing how many Semite groups there were.
Some, like the Hebrew nation ending with the Messiah cannot be 1/10,000 or
one in a million even ---- much higher.
So in picking figures I erred on the side of caution. Basically, Jacob in Egypt
in the Bronze Age, speaking of his own family having a Hebrew nation until
the Messiah came cannot be calculated - it's simply a prophecy which came
true.

 

[Tiberius]

The thing is, chimpanzees DO build tree shrines.

And here are some examples of Chimp shrines.

Chimps May Be Performing Rituals at “Shrine Trees” | Smart News | Smithsonian Magazine
What do chimp ‘temples’ tell us about the evolution of religion? | New Scientist
New Video Evidence of a Mysterious Behavior Among Wild Chimpanzees

 

[Tiberius]

Some, like probability of Judah being the monarch in waiting is clearly 1/12
Some, like the chance the Hebrews would be the dominant Semite group can
only be fully assertained by knowing how many Semite groups there were.
Some, like the Hebrew nation ending with the Messiah cannot be 1/10,000 or
one in a million even ---- much higher.
So in picking figures I erred on the side of caution. Basically, Jacob in Egypt
in the Bronze Age, speaking of his own family having a Hebrew nation until
the Messiah came cannot be calculated - it's simply a prophecy which came
true.

So you are guessing.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Again, that's not a protest towards the principle of injustice. It was a selfish reaction. As you saw, the other monkey did not protest, he was pleased with the favoured and unequal treatment, as would the upset monkey be had the treatment been reversed.
You are really not getting the point.

It is clearly, CLEARLY about being treated unfairly, because the monkey is perfectly happy with getting only a cucumber if that's what the other monkey gets.

 

[PruePhillip]

So you are guessing.

No, it came true. After Jesus the Jews went into exile for 1800 and suffered terrible persecutions
'because they did not know the time of their visitation.'

 

[metis]

I believe God has one voice not many. I suppose one could say a manifestation of His voice since He has spoken to many over the centuries.

But which rendition of God's voice is supposedly correct, and how could we know with certainty that it is? I'm not asking for opinion but only verifiable facts.

 

[DNB]

So in what way are babies "spiritual," if they have none of the moral values you're talking about that you think makes us "spiritual?"

Are you trying to divide humans into more than one category? We all know that humans are spiritual, there are enough religious edifices in the world to know that. Whatever differentiation that you're trying to make between human children and human adults, it's not plausible, the evidence within one, proves the existence within other - they're both the same species..
In other words, if you look harder enough you'll see spirituality in all humans of all ages, just in different degrees. Children are not devoid of spirituality despite the apparent lack of it, for in many ways they can exhibit spiritual awareness more than humans (not judgmental, cry when their rabbit dies, etc...).

 

[DNB]

So what?

If you do a job and get paid $100, and then you see someone else do the same job and they get paid $500, wouldn't you get upset because you recognise that you were being treated unfairly?

You want to make it about how Monkey 2 didn't protest, therefore we can't assume that Monkey 1 wasn't upset about being treated unfairly. But that just isn't a rational conclusion.

Having a sense of justice is much more comprehensive than what you are making it out to be.
In that, ultimately, I said only humans build religious edifices, worship gods, legislate laws, mourn the loss of their loved ones, decry injustices even when they're not directly affected by it, has a conscience that burns when their guilty, rebuke others for doing wrong, etc...
In other words, don't come to me with a single flippin' anecdote about two monkeys in a controlled environment. It's too silly to discuss.

 

[DNB]

The thing is, chimpanzees DO build tree shrines.

Well then go join their worship center IndigoChild.
Why don't you find out who their revering, and maybe you can see if there's an entity greater than YHWH?
It appears that you've got it all figured out IC, you're in awe over the monkeys..

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Well then go join their worship center IndigoChild.
Why don't you find out who their revering, and maybe you can see if there's an entity greater than YHWH?
It appears that you've got it all figured out IC, you're in awe over the monkeys..

Yes, I actually DO find it really cool that chimpanzees are evolving moral sentience (foundation of empathy and justice) and do religious things.

 

[DNB]

It is clearly, CLEARLY about being treated unfairly, because the monkey is perfectly happy with getting only a cucumber if that's what the other monkey gets.

Then why didn't he take him to court?
Full circle.

 

[DNB]

Yes, I actually DO find it really cool that chimpanzees are evolving moral sentience (foundation of empathy and justice) and do religious things.

Are we becoming rather credulous over here? Or, were we always?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Then why didn't he take him to court?
Full circle.

You can mock, but you cannot deny that the evidence proves chimps have a sense of what is just and unjust.

 

[Left Coast]

Are you trying to divide humans into more than one category?

No, I'm trying to determine the rationale for calling humans "spiritual" but other animals not. You seemed to say being spiritual meant being moral, and since non-human animals aren't moral to the same degree that we are, they aren't spiritual. But the same can be said of young children.

We all know that humans are spiritual,

Well no, we actually don't all know that. Lots of people say it, but the definitions quickly get fuzzy.

there are enough religious edifices in the world to know that.

Okay so spiritual means religious?

Whatever differentiation that you're trying to make between human children and human adults, it's not plausible, the evidence within one, proves the existence within other - they're both the same species..

The fact that we're the same species does not make us identical in every respect.

In other words, if you look harder enough you'll see spirituality in all humans of all ages, just in different degrees. Children are not devoid of spirituality despite the apparent lack of it, for in many ways they can exhibit spiritual awareness more than humans (not judgmental, cry when their rabbit dies, etc...).

Ah, okay. So morality/spirituality can be present, but in varying degrees. Much like...non-human animals, who also display a degree of moral behavior and reasoning (including mourning the deaths of others, etc.)

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Are we becoming rather credulous over here? Or, were we always?

Not at all. Its simply a matter of accepting what the studies and observations show. Rather, I believe that it is your reconceived notions about there being a chasm dividing humans from the other animals that prevents you from seeing what is pretty obvious.

 

[DNB]

You can mock, but you cannot deny that the evidence proves chimps have a sense of what is just and unjust.

oh, we can deny it. It's not a comprehensive awareness as I proved. A dog will bite you if you tamper with his food, or don't continue feeding him after offering him a morsel. It's not because he thinks that you're being unjust, it's because the dog is savage and primitive.
The monkey recognized a disparity in either the portion or perceived quality, and didn't want the short-end of the stick, but again, it doesn't work if the situation was inverted. You have to come up with a different conclusion rather than justice.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

oh, we can deny it. It's not a comprehensive awareness as I proved. A dog will bite you if you tamper with his food, or don't continue feeding him after offering him a morsel. It's not because he thinks that you're being unjust, it's because the dog is savage and primitive.
The monkey recognized a disparity in either the portion or perceived quality, and didn't want the short-end of the stick, but again, it doesn't work if the situation was inverted. You have to come up with a different conclusion rather than justice.

Sorry, but what the chimps do is right there for anyone who wants to look. Your words mean nothing. The evidence speaks for itself.

 

[DNB]

No, I'm trying to determine the rationale for calling humans "spiritual" but other animals not. You seemed to say being spiritual meant being moral, and since non-human animals aren't moral to the same degree that we are, they aren't spiritual. But the same can be said of young children.



Well no, we actually don't all know that. Lots of people say it, but the definitions quickly get fuzzy.



Okay so spiritual means religious?



The fact that we're the same species does not make us identical in every respect.



Ah, okay. So morality/spirituality can be present, but in varying degrees. Much like...non-human animals, who also display a degree of moral behavior and reasoning (including mourning the deaths of others, etc.)

No, non-humans do not mourn the loss of anything that does not affect them directly, it's nothing more than a survival instinct. You pet a dog every day then leave not to return, he'll notice your disappearance and acknowledge it in a certain manner. But any other dog witnessing the same thing will not feel sorry for the previously pampered dog. Their sense of justice is only primitive instincts of pleasure, it's not a comprehensively innate attribute.